DocZ LED Tent

[DocZ]

Howdy, IC!
First thread here, just wanted to show my attempt at high efficiency Tent, lighting and LED testing. I have some MrX style "fan-free" LED bars in a 4x4 Tent, recirculated air with a 5000 BTU window A/C mounted directly on side of tent.


I started with 4 bars with 35 3-Watt emitters each, and they run at 70 watts or so. I added another bar when performance was not what I expected. I have just one clip-on fan that cools the fins on top of the bars, and the A/C fan keeps the canopy well agitated.
I keep the lights high at one height, even though they can be dropped down, as the tent bounces most of the light around until it is absorbed...just keep everything inside bright white or reflective!
The LED's were OK for vegging, but not when running 12/12, as development and finish was slower. No complaints about the Flavor and aroma, as all terpenes and resin was developed and maintained well. I had a problem with my recycled soil approach when I started though, and just finished dialing-in to fix a problem with high pH and calcium build-up. I used a modified, enhanced BOG recipe with bone meal, and now use a composted organic version of The Phoenix's mix. I also just use rainwater, not higher pH tapwater, but at lower rates than with HID or outdoors.
I had moisture issues, as the transpiration rate was low, and the tent stayed too cool..(65-70 F) So I added 2 64 watt T8 fixtures with ballasts inside; this also helps when taking pictures! Maybe I should have left the LED bar power supplies in the tent for extra heat, but decided to hang them on the outside and cool 'em with a Server Rack fan, as they do get warm, and overheat without air circulation. I'll get into power supply problems later; the weakest link and failure mode with LEDs, IMO; other than cooling fans.

Here is the set-up with my de-skunked BlueBerrySkunk-Thai hybrid; it was selected from backcrosses of BBST with the original BlueBerry Skunk Clone that I got from cuttings.


This one has a great Berry smell and flavor that I love to Vape!

I plan on crossing this one with BOG's Blue Kush (Blush) and Blue Satellite2.2 that I got as Bonus Packs and Boo express shipping Freebies. Thanks Bushy and Boo!


It's great to finally give some back to the IC Community and post results for my experiments in cutting-edge Tech...For my best-performance standard, See my album for more shots of my HPS/MH combo with LED supplementals on sides. Posts to come.
Thanks again to All for the Views and knowledge; both past and future!

 

[GP73LPC]

wow, sorry to hear about your disappointment with the evo's. another member here, habeeb (i believe) bought some and wasn't impressed either. makes me wonder what mr x had going on.

the BlueBerrySkunk-Thai hybrid sounds delish !!! and looks killer too!!! FROSTY

thanks for posting man, i look forward to following along and hearing your thoughts.

p.s. rainwater FTW !!! that's what i use, PH out of the tap where i live is 8.7

 

[DocZ]

Yeh GP73LPC,
I watched the whole show and your logs of the "fan free" light bars; and pretty much thought it was the way to go, even if I had to re-wire a few power supplies or use just to supplement. I'm interested in the new models and spectrum control, but had to get in and try 'em after some of the claims for the 2 -color (red and cool white) emitters looked feasible. I saw that MrX has added a HPS for the cooler season in Spain, and figured that temperature may be the major factor in flowering rate and density, not just the high PAR numbers. VerdantGreen has already shown that IR added has a positive effect, but I felt that is better delivered by a near-infrared white, which is somewhat supplied by newer Crees in even higher outputs. I may still get good results if I get back to higher PAR numbers, and possibly from just more energy/on cycle (run more hours, if the genetics will allow it) Again, the voyage continues, and we are all part of it.

 

[GP73LPC]

i look forward to what my so called full spectrum welthinks do.

already old technology as i bought them a while back and couldn't grow til now.

 

[DocZ]

Here's the latest on the tent-
I have chopped the BlueBerrySkunk-Thai#3 that was finished, and here's some bud shots..

I decided to go back to 24/0 and veg some BOG Blue Kush and Blue Satellite2.2 -
Here they are after cutting clones and transplanting to 2 gallon pots; BK 1 is on the left, BK2 on right, and Blu Sat2.2 are back, with suspect male on left side.

Since sex is not yet confirmed for either BK, I have put cuttings under 12/12 to check. They are in the main flower room, under side-light LED bar.

I'll follow the Blue Kush progress here, along with some BBST3 transplants to veg-up for the main flower room. Clone cuts are also bubbling -away for the next of continuous-batch to go into the system..

See my Album for more not posted here- Stay tuned, and thanks for droppin' by!
Cheers!

 

[DocZ]

Here's a pic or two for Cloning101 Class-
I picked the sterilite-bubble cloner idea up from posts on OG, but had to learn NOT to put too much rooting hormone or ANY nutes in the water. Just rainwater works if the cuts are selected and prepared well. NSR Rootjuice keeps them greener and roots faster. In either case, Roots show in 1-2 weeks, if the cuts are not taken too late after flipping to 12/12. (no more than a week; or you will grow flowers while you root, even with 24/0 light for cloner)

They do root easily even without a bubbler/aerator, when in small containers that contain a little rooting solution like NSR RootJuice, but not enough nute concentration to cause algae or promote rot.
Here are BOB BK 1 and 2 cuts, sitting in glasses with rainwater and a few drops of rootjuice...letting soak before going into sterilite lid.

I'm trying to determine sex of these Blue Kush early, as I veg them up to flowering height, so I put one of each into the flowering room under 12/12. We will see if it flowers before it roots, like the "Sour Bubble 2010" thread by The Phoenix suggests. As I want to cross with my other BBST in flower, I may be able to use male flowers for early pollen, if BK1 is a male, like I suspect.

I put the test glasses in less intense light near one of the sidelight LED bars, and covered with foil to minimize algae growth and photo-inhibition of rooting area. They have perked-up nicely from date of picture, and actually show some new yellow center growth. which usually means roots starting, and good chance to show flowers.
Now on to re-potting some more into the tent, for at least a week or two of rooting...Feeling some Ole Grower's BackStrain right now...from mixing soil and moving pots...Need some medication... Good Luck to All!

 

[medmaker420]

looking nice

 

[DocZ]

Thanks Aardvark!
I'm looking to get one of the LED bars running again, and I may pull the T8 Fluoros for a new veg-check with my mix. I don't have the option of a smart camera that does custom-set white balance to get the color-balance like GP suggests on his sticky, so the T8's help for that, at least. I do notice that it's plenty bright in that tent when there's no plants to absorb the light and keep it from bouncing around like a ole game of Pong..
Meanwhile things are in the pink...HeHeHe

 

[Phychotron]

wow, sorry to hear about your disappointment with the evo's. another member here, habeeb (i believe) bought some and wasn't impressed either. makes me wonder what mr x had going on.

Although the style of the evo's is good--spread out light, I think they might be under powered for their design. Also, if you look at the Mr. X grow, it looks like his grams/m^2 would be very low, the high g/watt number looks like it comes from spreading out more plants than the lights could normally 'handle'.

 

[habeeb]

this is great man..

can I suggest pulling the LED bars down a little.. I remember getting them pretty close with no ill effect.

 

[DocZ]

Thanks for the ideas amigos-
I have tried to duplicate the situation Sen~orX had, but figured out the same thing; maybe he keeps moving the plants around like he said he did, but not for leveling the herd, but as a light mover does for more coverage without shadows. I agree the lights should be about 16-18 inches away from the canopy, and maybe if I get the same pheno heights going, I can SOG better with a lower lamp level.
I kept the lights up higher it he Tent because I'm lazy and also moving taller plants in to root and veg before moving to the main flowering room. The flowering room is about 36 sq ft; which has good saturation with 2 400W HPS/MH and 2 70 watt LED bars for side lights. When I had the light mover going, without sidelights, the density and flower growth was always better in the center, but went up even higher when I stopped it and raised it to cover more area.

More height also helped keep the flavor and quality up in this case also, where the LED's don't need to be any farther away, but still need good penetration and coverage.
I particularly like the cooler LEDs for finishing, as they degrade the THC less, while still allowing production of new flowers and resin.
For now, I think I'll keep the Tent Vegging, and after I dial-in the soil mix and nutes, I'll go for a Flower mode again with higher temperatures- It was definitely too cold and too wet before....semi-hydro-soil!
Pics to update shortly- The tent is getting full! I spent half the day re-potting, and wanting to order some more Beans that I have been waiting on...BushyOldGrower posted they're here....
Gotta go get some BOG Sour Bubble that has just arrived at the Boo....before it's gone again.....then I need to go confess at GP's "Seed Junky" thread...He HeHe

 

[DocZ]

OK...I feel better now... been to the SJ Hall
I had to check today tho...

Looks like they even have some Bog SB left on the Boo...I did not grab 'em all , unlike some of the other Seed Junkies here

Back to topic at hand when i return after a little upload of Tent
hot off the old (and I mean old) E-Camera.
They will still be pink and purple, : as NO custom white balance on this one, and the tungsten setting does not help either...

 

[DocZ]

Here we go - closer to getting a full tent now; but different heights keep me from customizing the height above each row. I have only 1 fan in here, and it does best by blowing across the fins of the EVO's, while the A/C fan keeps the higher canopy agitated.
Area above LED bars:

Here is the space below the lights, with new tall BBST3 plants in back, about 20 inches below LEDs.

A full view shot with door open, BOG Blue Kush and Blue Satellite 2.2 in front, BlueBerrySkunk x Thai#3 in back.

Here is a top view of BK2, showing either Variegata marginata, or minor Nute def, that appeared when it rooted-out the 1 gallon pot.
I thought it was excess oyster-shell calcium or hi pH, but it actually had less Shell in botton of pot than it's sibling, BK1 at bottom. These are still in 24/0, and sex is not confirmed, still suspect that BK1 is a male, and BK2 a female, due to relative leaflet overlap.

Anyone seen this leaf margin anomaly or deficiency before? It may be just that I had too much perlite at the bottom with the shell and pumice rock drainage, and not enuf organic soil mix...

Right now, even the short ones seem to be happy with the height of LEDS above the tops, and resulting intensity and spectrum, as the tent reflects off the walls, and around inside until it is absorbed by anything not white or reflective. This is under veg tho...
When I switch, then we'll see what happens. I plan to move the tall ones out for flowering in the ~1KW MH/HPS/LEDroom anyway. Maybe by the I'll have the 5th EVO working again...and get back to 100% LED's in the Tent and use the T8 Fluoros for Photos!

Let me know what ya' think!!!

 

[medmaker420]

i really love the heatsink setup on those

long panels fuckin rock like that

leds need dialing in nute and humidity wise before the leaves will chill the hell out, that is one thing I have noticed with leds compared to hps

 

[DocZ]

Thanks Aard-
I think the transpiration rate threw me at first, and on top of that I was having problems with my first (or second) try at recycling organic soil...I'm back to a good cook/wait time on the mix, and an enhanced version of the BOG mix, ala Phoenix recipe.
Ya think humidity is a problem too? I used to keep bubblers and a water level in the tray bottoms, just cause the water got sucked-up so fast under HID's and 78 DegF temps, now I have to keep the A/c setting between 73-79, just to cycle the humidity down! The water just does not move thru the plants in veg, much less flowering, when the system is on 12/12. I may try 15/9 for flowering, just to increase the total energy /day, if I can't increase the intensity to the recommended 3X Veg Wattage.
Thanks for the feedback!

 

[DocZ]

i really love the heatsink setup on those

long panels fuckin rock like that

leds need dialing in nute and humidity wise before the leaves will chill the hell out, that is one thing I have noticed with leds compared to hps

Thanks Aard,
As a matter of record, you hit the nail square on-
I tried foliar-feeding with Epsom and Seaweed/Neem, as I usually hit 'em before flower to knock-out the mites and boost while rooting..still no immediate effect on new leaves.
I double-checked my temps and humidity at the bottom where the plants are...duh.. also with a good RH and digital Temperature one, unlike my ornamental one shown in the heat-sink head-space.
The temp was 76 F when the headspace was reading 80, and the humidity was 82%, when the headspace was reading 50-55%,
A quick review of the ICmag Plant Infirmary pics also confirmed a potassium deficiency, probably due to excessive moisture, and slightly high pH. (I switched to Miracle-Gro bagged coco coir mix recently, when I stopped recycling soil, and that may be adding to the problem. )
I immediately added a lower-space oscillating fan for the ones showing symtoms, and since the taller ones just added were also showing now, I raised the temperature for an average of 78 F or so, +/- 2 degrees with A/C cycling range.
I also went to supplemental feeding with EWC/Molasses tea and EJ Bloom (with higher pH and some potassium) waiting until surface was dry to do so...Now I need to get my patience and greenthumb back and get to work refining the mix..I found out that it's too hot for just rooted transplants, so need to look at a milder mix for that also...U can get complacent with organic soils, and I have already lerned 2 many times that Muther Nature dislikes extreme changes, and too many at one time can cause confusion and complicate a Caregivers modus operandi!
We'll see...
Now maybe I can get the 5th EVO bar running, after I swap ballasts, and get back to pure LED testing with those long "fan-free" panels! I would consider changing to a higher-output driver/power supply, and boosting the 70 or so watts to around 100, but that would mean adding some server-rack fans to the heat-sink side of the bars, and go through some reliability checks with the new "design". First things first, patience...then back to the Mad Doctor's Laboratory....MuuwhaaaHaaaHaa!

 

[DocZ]

Recovery Update

Recovery Update

Just a short update on recovery from moisture and potassium-deficiencies.. Here's what I just posted on BOG's "Blush is Blue Kush" thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5686981#post5686981
The tent is still set for Veg mode at 24/0, and the A/C is running with little cycling with thermostat set for 78.

New growth is showing a better shade of green, not yellow edge variegation for all that showed the problem in the Tent.
"Tool-time DocZ" has been rewiring power supplies, and
I have all 5 (70-75 watt) bars running, in addition to 128 Watts of T8- 4100K. Now that warmer temps are here for spring, the temperature factor may not be as much a factor in lower transpiration rates, and high humidity problems.
Lower space is now ventilated and air stirred with an oscillating tower fan, with temp in the mid-70's, and humidity around 62.

I think I will move the larger plants out of the Tent to flower, now that they have had some time to root and recover. The Blue Kush and Blue Satellites will stay, and maybe get positioned higher for better intensity, until they are sized-up and ready. I'll see if they have enough momentum to switch to flower mode at 13/11 or 14/10 energy levels. I may bring in some BBST3 to root and fill the 4X4 space....If all soil problems are resolved, then I'll see if pure LED for flowering is possible for this spectrum at 29-30 watts/sqft.
Most have shown the need for more...but these higher power density units need fans, and the idea is to get as solid-state and reliable as possible, failures are a hassle...even with good warranties!

Even with the poor flower density and slow ripening, the quality of LED bud is excellent; and last run turned out to produce about a half-oz per plant, with a tray of 10 BBST3 poorly SOG-spaced in 1 gallon pots. The space was barely half-full, and not up to proper height.
Doing the math ..That's about 5 oz with 408 watts (incl. 128W T8) for about 1/3 gram per watt, but the flavor and potency are better that most medium-sized "denser-buddage" of the same strain that I fried 20 inches away from my halide/HPS ....
If it's more power required to kick-in high-density sensimilla flowering, then maybe an extra Bank of white Crees will do.. We'll see, if we need it first-
......
Otherwise I will get closer to the old rule of thumb: 3X Veg watts for flower, or bump-up the intensity as required with a mixed spectrum LED and warm-white-whatever Boost lamp to get over the "Photon energy flowering threshhold".
The voyage continues...the cutting-edge bleeds green...
Happy Equinox~Easter, and spring flowering!

 

[GP73LPC]

sorry you're having so much trouble man.

sounds like you are correcting things though.

 

[DocZ]

Thanks GP,
I'll post some pics to show the improvement; I think it's mostly getting used to the coco coir; but i would like to find a faster alternative to waiting for the organics to cook a month before using. Earthworm Castings are working to fix the K availability now; top-dressed all big pots and trying to meter the watering applications more carefully now.
After trying my hand at DWC for awhile, I've decided it's much easier to let the Myco and micro-"herd" regulate pH and nutes...When it works, it's great for flavor and frostage!
I'll probably go to a no-nute needed mix eventually, just rainwater and time needed!

 

[DocZ]

Greetings-

Here's a full view shot taken 2 days back- definitely room to move some plants up to get better intensity!


Here's a closer view of plants; BBST3 are in back, almost ready to move to flowering room. Blue Kush and Blue Satellite2.2 are in front, with new tower fan on right side for better air circulation while they are short.


This is a top view of BK1- lower left; Blue Sat 2.2 suspect male above it, both showing little Nute def or problems. They did slow down, hovever the Blu Sat 2.2 suspect male has not been re-potted, and is still in a 1 gallon pot.
In the middle are Blue Satellite2.2, also showing some potassium-def clorosis one with female indicators, the other with tri-nodes and suspect male. Right side is BK2, showing improvement of clorosis in new growth. All these are in 2 gallon pots, and should have rooted by now, if they had not stayed too wet. New growth is "verdant green" not yellow!

These need to get going better in Veg and add some height before I switch to flower; so I may take some more cuts to add to the BK cuts already rooted.
It looks like the LED spectrum may not be a problem, but transpiration is definitely affected compared to HID's, although soil mix and air circulation should be first priority in any grower's book, no matter what photon source and wavelengths are used indoors.