Decrease of yield of a once reliable genetics

[hydrodreams]

You can say what you want about genetic drift, but we have been "cloning" fruit trees for a hundred plus years with no ill effects. The science jargon says yes, but the real world says no. For now I side with the real world, and the theories will just remain theories.

Well in case of the fruit trees its a bit different. They were designed by the nature to exist many years or decades. A hemp- plant or tomato or cocumber were designrd by the nature to exist one season and not a few years.

Hydrodreams

 

[TheArchitect]

Clones don't last forever, take a look at the process known as "Muller's Ratchet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muller's_ratchet

Hey bud, I think you may have misunderstood Mullers ratchet.

And honestly, I think this is were the meme of clones losing genetic stability comes from.

But, Mullers ratchet explains genetic drift in asexual reproduction, cloning is not asexual reproduction, it's basically like keeping the plant in veg for years and years.

 

[highonmt]

telomeric aging is my guess I've seen this happen to a number of great strains over the years and I think it is due to the down regulation of telomerase enzymes due to cell line aging. That said I have yet to see a good scientific explanation of this phenom. Oh and gorilla chloroplasts are the oganelles, chlorphyll is the pigment contained withing them.
HM

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Yeah, this has been brought up in a number of threads. None have provided a conclusive answer. Your description of identical changes amongst many separately maintained cuts from a single mother is very interesting. It suggests that in the situation you describe, this is a predictable non random process.

Degradation of telomeres has been used to explain the health problems of mammalian clones, such as Dolly the sheep. Epigenetic change can be induced by a stressful event in a cut. Here's a great article on divergence of traits between populations of poplar tree clones caused by drought stress.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80...lones-diverge/


There is discussion of this subject in this thread, Can we talk genetic drift in clones?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248249&page=2

I hate to repeat an error by citing this thread title. "Genetic Drift" has an exact meaning in evolutionary biology and it bugs me to see it used here. I guess it could be argued that the clone line is your population and the mutations are random so it's appropriate. But specifically, Genetic Drift refers to evolutionary change which doesn't result from the process of Natural Selection. There is no selective pressure pushing the change in any direction. So as an example, a tree falling on an individual removes that individual's genes from the gene pool (change in the frequencies of different alleles within a population, is a definition of evolution) and is a random event and an example of genetic drift. (sorry to be anal)

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Yeah, this has been brought up in a number of threads. None have provided a conclusive answer. Your description of identical changes amongst many separately maintained cuts from a single mother is very interesting. It suggests that in the situation you describe, this is a predictable non random process.

I'd be interested to see if all those growers were using the same nutes/style?

Have heard of growers having problems with mums after a few years... and that changing up the nutrient profile from time to time made a big difference.

Mushroom growers don't keep their spawn on the same substrate/nutrition cycle forever... you have to switch up the type of nutrient and medium from time to time or things go bad.

Makes sense since we don't have a 'miracle' nutrient that ensures your plants get absolutely everything they need. Consider that it can take humans a long time to develop health related issues when their nutrient regimen is only a little off.

Stay Safe!

 

[astartes]

Lol. I know commercial shiitake and oyster mushroom growers. They certainly don't change up their substrate/nutrients for the same species. Species to species there is a preference for varying substrates and pasteurizing/sterilization of various nutrients.

Commercial mushroom growers use substrates that are available locally as freight costs are prohibitive for the amount of substrate needed. Depending on season, indoor/outdoor production area and changes in humidity, mushroom farmers will change up the species they cultivate accordingly.

Classic Hydro-Soil as usual.

a.

 

[FOE20]

Practices may also not be what they were as well tho...Honestly I watch allot of ppl take lower weak cuts of mothers in veg...I watch many if not almost all the growers I know, over grow or root bind their mothers...
Soon as this progression starts it leads to slow and weak plants..
I started by being taught basics in veg gardens..then was shown the agro ver in lg scale corn fields..
Then studied the basics of botany and pathology and it just seems like were Making the Plants weak or just continuing the weakest part of their "body"....
I work with many lines both from clone and seed...
The only time we get a genetic that gets depressed or locked up it always seems to be the enviro/user and not genetically bound..
A odd view is back in the day I was always taught to take the Cultivar of the Mother plant for propagation...
this simply meant the most vigorous and healthy "Shoot" on the Entire plant...and in most cases was the upper most terminal section...I still use this train of thought and it seems to stay true to its use...think the rest are just excuses for why its not as simple as it should be...We all seem to need a reason things go bad...but what if the reason is a s simple as our own faults..
FOE20

 

[highonmt]

Practices may also not be what they were as well tho...Honestly I watch allot of ppl take lower weak cuts of mothers in veg...I watch many if not almost all the growers I know, over grow or root bind their mothers...
Soon as this progression starts it leads to slow and weak plants..
I started by being taught basics in veg gardens..then was shown the agro ver in lg scale corn fields..
Then studied the basics of botany and pathology and it just seems like were Making the Plants weak or just continuing the weakest part of their "body"....
I work with many lines both from clone and seed...
The only time we get a genetic that gets depressed or locked up it always seems to be the enviro/user and not genetically bound..
A odd view is back in the day I was always taught to take the Cultivar of the Mother plant for propagation...
this simply meant the most vigorous and healthy "Shoot" on the Entire plant...and in most cases was the upper most terminal section...I still use this train of thought and it seems to stay true to its use...think the rest are just excuses for why its not as simple as it should be...We all seem to need a reason things go bad...but what if the reason is a s simple as our own faults..
FOE20

Ya it seems easy to blame the grower for this type of degradation and I am sure there is a lot of blame to bear among growers but...We had an amazing strain around here called GG it was super vigoruos high yeilding and SUPER potent. I know of 5 growers who all had this in cultivation and within two years all noticed the same degradation. Some were incredibly fastidious growers who had the strain for decades others were perma rookies and all saw the same thing at the same time. I have heard it happened to everyone holding this cut. Which makes me wonder if it is oxidative stress from poor cultivation practices or if it is a genetic degradation of some sort.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

In the instances given by ABN where using mothers grown from sub par cuttings resulted in degradation, I wonder if it could be an epigenetic effect? Since lower branches are suppressed by the hormonal influence of the dominant terminal buds there is a possibility that some positive growth genes have been switched off in the lower branches. If the original plant were topped then these genes might get switched back on allowing for vigorous growth. But maybe when taking cuttings from suppressed lower branches these positive growth genes don't get switched back on in the clones. And the situation might be visa versa with cuttings from terminal branches. Of course this is all speculation on my part.

 

[Nunsacred]

so it looks like the 3 best guesses are :

1) telomeric erosion
2) viral load
3) organelle mutational load

....doesn't matter which, makes no practical difference.

Any of these might cause epigenetic change, again, no practical difference to us whether this is the case or not.

I've also seen a clone population spread to different growers and all die off at the same time a couple of years later, so that's a third case where it's non-random.

 

[Sinkyone]

Hey bud, I think you may have misunderstood Mullers ratchet.

And honestly, I think this is were the meme of clones losing genetic stability comes from.

But, Mullers ratchet explains genetic drift in asexual reproduction, cloning is not asexual reproduction, it's basically like keeping the plant in veg for years and years.

I think you need to get out your biology book or a dictionary. Cloning is asexual reproduction.

 

[Sinkyone]

You can say what you want about genetic drift, but we have been "cloning" fruit trees for a hundred plus years with no ill effects. The science jargon says yes, but the real world says no. For now I side with the real world, and the theories will just remain theories.

Not entirely true, fruit tress can and do exhibit the same issues being discussed on here. However it tends to take much, much longer, in some cases thousands of years. The banana is a good example of this - they have been propagated via cuttings for many thousands of years, most likely since the dawn of agriculture. The result is that they are slowly going extinct due to an inability to sexually reproduce. You cannot propagate a plant indefinitely with clones, the population will eventually become unfit.

 

[TLoft13]

As somebody who has never seen this himself: What should i expect?
30% less yield over two cycles?
Or just an unquantifiable loss of vigor and pest resistance?

Not entirely true, fruit tress can and do exhibit the same issues being discussed on here. However it tends to take much, much longer, in some cases thousands of years. The banana is a good example of this - they have been propagated via cuttings for many thousands of years, most likely since the dawn of agriculture. The result is that they are slowly going extinct due to an inability to sexually reproduce. You cannot propagate a plant indefinitely with clones, the population will eventually become unfit.

The Banana is also an excellent example why this is an bad idea. There have been several epidemics in modern times threatening to wipe out the worldwide monoculture.

 

[TLoft13]

Sorry doublepost...

 

[DrFever]

Not entirely true, fruit tress can and do exhibit the same issues being discussed on here. However it tends to take much, much longer, in some cases thousands of years. The banana is a good example of this - they have been propagated via cuttings for many thousands of years, most likely since the dawn of agriculture. The result is that they are slowly going extinct due to an inability to sexually reproduce. You cannot propagate a plant indefinitely with clones, the population will eventually become unfit.

Its not that true your making it sound like from taking cuttings over thousands of years is killing the banana when in fact environment / hurricanes/ storms and most importantly panama disease is whats killing the banana NOT mono cropping the banana its new diseases that plants can;t combat
But like some posts mentioned on top taking a healthy cutting rather then a weak will establish good and healthy clones when you take a a clone from a sick or diseased plant your cutting is sick and diseased period .....
Only way i can actually see some kind of Gentic drift or DNA damage is from excessive UV lighting like many now are thinking they will produce more resin with UV additives
thank god for our atmosphere to block most of it or we would be all genetically drifting rather fast

what happened to the gros micheal banana ??? which was actually better then cavendish it was wiped out by disease and that is what might be happening with the cavendish as well
I think for some growing same strain for years an years its not the plant ... Its your body gets used to the stone no different then having a headache before all i needed was 1 tylenal and it was gone now i need 2 - 3 to get rid of it our bodies get used to it

 

[vapedg13]

thats all I grow is clones...I have been growing the same clone since 1993 and it is still the same now as it was back when i first got the clone.....get 6 oz per plant on the average everytime

I got the clone from a person who had been running the strain for about 10 yrs prior to giving it to me

I been collecting and keepin elite clones for years....who needs beans!!

I never keep a mom to any strain...just pull starts at onset from the healthiest girls

 

[donny darko]

Yeah I head GSC was going to be struck with this, T - minus 30 days get it while you can hahah Just kidding

 

[HellaFella420]

I think you need to get out your biology book or a dictionary. Cloning is asexual reproduction.

Semantics..... By definition cloning is asexual, but that is referring to things that have a biologic method to "clone" themselves.

Last I checked I have to still take clones, they dont magically fall off, rooted and ready to go!


So, IMHO, that terminology does not fit this line of reasoning. and therefor any "genetic drift" ascribed to this method does not apply..


But, yes......"cloning" is asexual reproduction, I read it on the internet once, it must be true!

 

[30years]

hi,
lighting. when you hold moms under hid for extended periods of time the plants begin to degrade. take the plant outside during the summer months and make clones from that plant and plants from those plants. repeat each year.
i run one of the largest legal plant operations in northern california and do this every season with my mom stock. i have done it for years, decades actually. when our indoor technology catches up with sunlight we shouldnt need to do this but for now it is mandatory.
truthfully, if your not experiencing virus related issues or radiation exposure the plants are not genetically drifting, especially in a few years time. i call what i see the plants doing a vigor slide. same plant but not doing what it once did with no other explainable reason. create a healthy biologically sound root zone environment and place your old girls outside and see what happens.
best,
30y

 

[Dkgrower]

Hahahaha i was just going to write the same thing as 30years...

Every summer my mother stabel go outside for the summer season and they love it after 14 days they look like they should all year around -