a 'true' male from S1 seeds?

[xmobotx]

a hermi isa hermie tho

not so much

in fact the fuel for this discussion is essentially that a monoecious plant can {@the chromosomal level} be a male plant expressing pistillate flowers OR a female plant expressing staminate flowers

the latter being desirable for feminising seeds IF the monoecious trait isnt expressed at an excessive level in the progeny

 

[frito bandito]

it seems that Frito cannot accept the definition GMT provides for a "male", and GMT cannot accept Fritos definition of a "male". IMO this seems to be the pivotal thing that is preventing acceptance of either one's presentation of information. but like I said its just my opinion.

exactly right. he is starting from the chromosome and working his way up. i'm starting with the plant's observed traits and working my way down. when you follow everything out to its logical conclusion you find his theory has holes and inconsistencies in it, which conflict in some cases with what has been observed by some growers. i think my view is much better at explaining what's actually going on.

reading this thread has challenged me to reconsider my conception of what a male is.
something I would like to have clarified if anyone would be so kind: environmental stress causing male expression?
hard to validate, but I can see how this would be evolutionarily advantageous. females typically demand more nutes and water than males correct? so if the xx plant expresses male flowers it saves its energy while producing pollen, that in my head theory, would result in progeny with greater frequency of females, and of those female they would exhibit a marked increase in drought tolerance. Am I making any sense? Took a fatty dab of some Blueberry bho budder, heads all crooked.

there are many possibilities, and my guess was maybe the plant may have an advantage in producing more males or females under certain circumstances. maybe under ideal conditions it's better to have more females, so more seed will be produced. in good conditions most plants would survive and odds are there would be a male or two in there to shed its pollen. but if conditions are harsh and stressful, then maybe the plant finds an advantage in producing more males, thus making extra sure there will be some pollen flying around to pollinate the females, even if some of the males or females die off from stress.

If I have understood things correctly, GMT is defining the male as an XY, that produces XY pollen. Correct?
and in the context of selfing, in the progeny there can be an XX that exclusively produces male flowers, looks male, but produces gynodioecious progeny. still on the right page here?

Frito's definition is that if it has male flowers it a male, do I have that right frito?

yes! and doesn't it make more sense to classify and define a plant's sex based on its observed traits, and the observed traits of its offspring, rather than on something arbitrary like an "X" or "Y" chromosome, which you have to put the plant under a microscope to even see? and which contain thousands of genes, the function of 99% of which is a mystery? anyone thinking they have cannabis all figured out on a genetic basis and that they can talk authoritatively about X and Y chromosomes and such and exactly how things work on a genetic level, is fooling themselves.

in reality there is no such thing as a "pure male" or "pure female" cannabis plant; there are only shades of gray. the production of male or female sex organs is controlled by dozens or hundreds of genes which interact with the environment in countless ways. it's just like any other expressed trait; not cut or dry in exactly how or when it's expressed, and controlled by many factors, which differ from plant to plant and strain to strain. i say a given cannabis seed, if you could "clone" it and sprout the clones in a dozen different conditions, would turn into a dozen different plants, with some extraordinary differences. some could be male, some female, others hermie. and if you tried this with different seeds you would get wildly different results among them, even among the same strain.

 

[Mate Dave]

H''mm no such thing as a pure male and a pure female.

Fritto, we don't need you posting absolute nonsense, its embarrassing to read. All plants are either dominant or recessive, heterozygous or homozygous.

This is how we describe plants as breeders, using this terminology or the name of the trait of which they fix.

Where is the Grey area you are talking about, this is simple, Do you not understand!!

I don't want any more rep of you, keep it, I already have more than I have posts.

And

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the production of male or female sex organs is controlled by dozens or hundreds of genes which interact with the environment in countless ways.

So it has nothing to do with the sex chromosomes then? That’s aright i'll just ignore the 8th set with a funny end.

Fuck education, lets learn Fritto's way.
[/FONT]

 

[Galactic]

Re: a 'true' male from S1 seeds?

Sure it has something to do with the sex chromosomes. It just doesn't have Everything to do with it.

Hence its not simply Black&White or X&Y. There is Gray if you can imagine a sliding scale... Black & white on opposite ends. The dozens or hundreds of unknown genetic code and their respective interactions makes the Grey.

Most simpletons can observe black or white. It's the finer nuances that push it one way or another. The Grey takes in the unaccounted and is more scientifically humble for understanding and progress.

 

[Mate Dave]

Inter-sexed plants are not something I'm fond off.

They would not be in populations if seed was certified.

Working within this Grey?? Sounds Dull!!

"The Sex chromosomes contain many complex gene combinations, these genes are responsible for the 'survival' trait."

(The survival trait show's in 'females' only) - Seed derived without inbreeding a proper Large Y chromosome into the Genotype/Karyotype.

"Staminate flowers are not found in pistillate individuals of the same variety's."

'Heteromorphic' sex chromosomes are reported to occur in staminate individuals of 'dioecious' cannabis. These varieties were assumed to have sex chromosome composition XX.

"Variation in sex expression is linked to the hetrozygosity of sex genes in the X chromosomes and the autosomes."

"In the female plant the 'heteromorphicity' is absent and as such it has two homomorphic chromosomes along with 18 autosomes. Males being 'Heterozygous' can inter-act with the genes controlling inter-sex tendencies making them 'never' show up in those males progeny."

"Inbreeding with a male."

"Both true, and environmentally induced 'hermaphrodites' can be genotypically, and phenotypically observed in various cannabis species."

A 'genotypic' difference that can be observed between the two distinct sexes is the presence of both sex markers in true hermaphrodites. True hermaphrodites posses BOTH sex markers when analysed using 'Polymerase Chain reaction' (PCR) techniques. 'King-Queen Plants'.

A 'phenotypic' difference is the appearance of fully defined male flowers at the beginning of flower production, verses, the appearance of a male stamens in 'female' dominate pistillate units after flower production has been artificially initiated.

"A 'True' hermaphrodite has both fully formed male and female sex morphology commencing at the same time of flower induction."

Back to the x's and y's.

"All cells of wild cannabis plants are made up of vegetative matter, this (non sexually-reproductive matter) usually has the 'diploid condition (2n)'.

'The reproductive matter is a little bit different from the norm.'

"Reproductive cells of the marijuana plant have gone through a cell differentiation process called 'meiosis'."

'Meiosis' is a cellular process that results in the number of chromosomes being reduced to one half. "All except those which are fixed homozygous and dominant".

This process is called 'reduction division'. With reduction division (meiosis), the extra 10 chromosomes simply fail to replicate in the reproductive cells of both the male and female marijuana plants. (Recessive - Heterozygosity)

The resulting 10 unpaired chromosomes are known as the 'haploid condition' or (1n). (Gametophyte)

Once cells are made that contain 10 unpaired 'dominant' chromosomes the plants are ready for pollination.

What happens next is the male haploid condition cells (pollen) are introduced to the female haploid cells (ovules) and each of the dominant unpaired 10 chromosome cells from each plant bond together. (Cleavage Furrow.)

"Therefore sex of a marijuana plant is determined the moment of fertilization."

'The female chromosomes link up with the chromosomes of the male'.

"Therefore it is only the male chromosomes that determine the 'True' sex cannabis plant population."

A female haploid will always have an x in their 8th chromosome, it is up to the genetics of the male haploid to decide whether it pairs an x or a y onto this female chromosome.

"If the male chromosome is an x chromosome, the plant will be a female, if it is a y chromosome then the plant will be a male."

'That about covers the very basics for our discussion of cannabis and sexual reproduction.'

'Male-associated markers are relatively abundant.'

"In dioecious plants where sex chromosomes have not been identified, markers for maleness indicate either the presence of sex chromosomes which have not been distinguished by 'cytological' methods or that the marker is tightly linked to a gene involved in sex determination."

"Environmental or Heteroicous sex determination is known to occur in variety's of cannabis species. Many theory’s have suggested that sex in Cannabis is determined or strongly influenced by environmental factors."

"Ainsworth reviews that treatment with auxin and ethylene have feminizing effects, and that treatment with cytokinins and gibberellins have masculinizing effects."

"It has been reported by SamSkunkman that sex can be reversed in Cannabis using chemical treatment."

(The above is a load of Black and White, its Black and White.)

 

[Mate Dave]

The breeders task is to assemble within populations, combinations of alleles comprising of many genetic loci that lead to superior multi-locus genotypes, and, hence, superior phenotypes in the environment envisioned for the potential of the new variety.

First, any single locus can be known to exist with certainty only if at least two alleles with distinguishable phenotypical expressions have been shown by segregation tests to be responsible for the the phenotypical expressions of the locus. Therefore an allele is said to be fully dominant when the phenotype of one homozygote (a1a1) and the heterozygote (a1a2) are indistinguishable from each other phenotypically.

According to the Mendalins, a homozygous recessive individual in a segregating population, even if its parents were both heterozygotes, should, transmit its own recessive genes, in no way contaminated by dominant parental influences.

"Haploid plants have great potential in plant breeding, it is possible by doubling the chromosomes of a haploid plant, to obtain a completely homozygous plant. This may be impossible by other means, especially with self-sterile plants."

 

[xmobotx]

its interesting to me applying the terms heterozygous and homozygous to gender

granted; i havent studied this at length nor been schooled on it officially but, it seems like we have a way to explain thinkings such as 'pure male' using it. Though i have always used it to consider traits passed from parent to offspring {i.e. potency, habit, vigor, flower set, etc}

essentially what you are saying mate dave is that we could draw up punnet squares which we could use conversationally to consider differing views on gender and how it is passed?

not sure why i have been reluctant to view it like that because the verbage seems the same from one set of chromosomes to the next ~even to the end?

would like to hear some other opinions on this since looking at it like "het female" for instance makes the explanation much simpler. And, for someone to say a "homozygous male" {or female} would be 'i think' what "pure male" {or female} means to someone using that terminology

 

[GMT]

xmobotx just for you:

pure Hermie female (wrong term but the one being used, female producing male flowers, female expressing male, a male in some eyes but genetically not) crossed to a True female - all offspring contain the hermie genes and are all FEMALE
HfHf........TfTf
_____________
HfTf........HfTf
HfTf........HfTf


True Male crossed to a True female (True male represented by TmTf as we all know by now, a normal male is XY hence is half True female. The offspring are all True males or true females in a 50:50 ratio.

TmTf......TfTf
_____________
TmTf.......TmTf
TfTf.........TfTf

This is the one that causes confusion I think. A Female thats got only 1 side of it faulty/under evolved). Depending on the swing towards producing male flowers, The offspring may appear as if they were a classic 50:50 male to female while actually being 50:50 True females and half females producing mainly/exclusively male flowers.

HfTf......TfTf
____________
HfTf.......HfTf
TfTf.......TfTf

 

[xmobotx]

i would tend to assume XX XY and YY would determine gender while herm would be a separate trait worked out against non herm and het herm

 

[GMT]

I'm not sure where the confusion lies, clearly TfTm is XY, TfTf is XX as is HfTf and as would HfHf.

 

[xmobotx]

oh OK i see

one problem is; i havent seen a herm crossed to a fem produce 50/50 fem to herm

 

[GMT]

There are levels of herm, and alternative genes they can be pared with to mask them. Intersexed flowers arent always an on or off thing, they are more what frito would call grey.

 

[Happy 7]

Any idea why some intersexed plants need stress to express the 'hermie gene' and others don't?

 

[Mate Dave]

There are levels of herm, and alternative genes they can be pared with to mask them. Intersexed flowers arent always an on or off thing, they are more what frito would call grey.

This grey area would be what I describe as breeding without knowing what your doing with what.

Possibly a inter-sex individual was crossed to another inter-sex individual, consequently this recombination has no purity in the true sense and has many lookalike desirable phenotypes. None of which are any good to anyone.

 

[frito bandito]

There are levels of herm, and alternative genes they can be pared with to mask them. Intersexed flowers arent always an on or off thing, they are more what frito would call grey.

+1

it seems to me there is a "primary" and "secondary" sex system. i think looking at the primary system alone, a plant will be one of male, female, or full blown hermie. thats where im talking about it getting selected and "fixed" one way or the other early in the plant's life. then once its fixed it doesnt change. seems like the "secondary" system on the other hand has a separate genetic pathway for triggering it and can be turned on/off depending on environmental conditions etc. this is the system that causes a "normal" plant to "go hermie" and start spitting out nanners.

so in other words if this is correct then there are two main types of hermies, the full blown kind you typically get out of thai or mexican stock for instance, where its 100% hermie from the time it goes into flower or very shortly thereafter, which usually produces seeds, and also what you might call a "pseudo" hermie which is a plant that isnt a hermie under normal conditions, but can be induced to be so with varying degrees of ease depending on the individual genotype.

has anyone observed that nanners seem to produce much less pollen, or very little pollen compared to the full male flowers? there seems to be an extra pathway somewhere that modifies a "nanner" into a full flower. but where is this located, and under what conditions does it activate? i think this code may only be activated by the primary sex system; with the secondary system only nanners are/can be produced.

also on a typical female plant that becomes hermie from stress, say an outdoor loving plant grown indoor or one subjected to light stress, i note the stress can be removed and the nanners will shrivel up and die having made no seeds. seems to fit in with the idea of there being a secondary system that turns on/off under stress. if the stress is sporadic or only temporary, then the "on" signal is not strong enough for the nanners and pollen to develop correctly.

 

[Mate Dave]

How do you know it is a normal xx Xy plant fritto? Even if it's that?

Your still missing the point, to breed you must determine the probability of the outcome from the cross of two individuals. Cannabis is default by nature Hermi in-order to survive, individuals of the pure female cannabis karyotype will exist through [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Mendalins[/FONT] predictions of the recombination of alleles, cannabis, is inter-sexed, Period, there are females in lines found in the wild and through breeding these females out of a herm population with the correct partner or using the King Queen Genotype will make the line dioecious, choosing the correct individual actually makes the Heteroicous tendencies dissapeer in the progeny. Then your a breeder not a hack, and that by the way is my new definition of a Hack!

Different tree species produce seeds at undisclosed, random intervals, many of the reasons for this are not known, stress is one factor which all authority’s agree has an influence on the amount of seed produced in various seasons. Larix decidua will seed heavy when it's time has come, usually age, disease/fungus have a hold of old specimens and as such they will produce masses of their dehissant seed type so to ensure survival, trees do this randomly, in some instances drought and extremes of weather can cause the different species to do this.

I assume the genes responsible for this trait in various trees are the same gene sequences that influence the Heteroicous inter-sex tendencies in our cannabis population when exposed to insufficient or fluctuating environmental conditions.

Even if you collected your seed from a wild stand of plants where they were made, which most of the pioneers in the seed industry claim to do, these plants grown from wild collected seed would be subject to extreme environmental stress upon germination, water/soil/temp/light would not help the Heteroicous inter-sex latent disorder. Even if you obtained a dioecious seed type it would have this latent disorder as a dominant trait Phenotypically. Breeding could remove it, but the best way would be to breed in the wild with the plants and nature, perfect conditions aren't ideal, and were near impossible when people first started to ruin the genotype of cannabis, hacking the geenpool.

For example: Species in the natural world are/have evolved, they always come true to type, Cultivars, By-generic & Interspecific Hybrids and chimera's don't without the hand of man.

Plants are much cleverer than humans, they know what to do and when.

(I have a question. How do plants know to move towards the light? They don't have a brain.)

What do you think Fritto?

Many observations of plants conclude that gene's behave in the same way as each other in many, many genus.

It is easiest to save seed from self-pollinating plants. Self-pollinating flowers contain both male and female parts and often pollinate themselves before the flowers open. Peas and non-potato leafed tomato varieties fall into this category. With these plants you can just collect seeds from mature fruit and you are set for the next growing season. Plants that are not self-pollinating require you to exclude pollen from other varieties of the same species and then fertilize them by hand. Fertilizing with pollen from the same plant is called selfing and is used to strengthen the traits of the plant the seeds are collected from. Fertilizing with pollen from a different plant of the same variety increases the genetic diversity of the seeds and plants within the same species will pollinate each other.

I want to create my own karyotype, map it and patent it, then in a decade I can see how many of you will have inherited my genes.

In that decade I hope to learn how to make other cannabis pollen non-vialble to my specific female Karyotype so inter-sex plants can't fuck with me. Basically locking off my karyotype.

 

[frito bandito]

sorry, was there a question or some kind of argument buried in there somewhere? I must have missed it, cause all i saw was a rambling wall of text.

perhaps you can explain something thats confusing me: if youre so knowledgeable and smart about cannabis chromosomes that you feel entirely justified in leaving me a neg rep saying i dont have a clue........then why in the world would you be over in the "breeders" thread asking questions that only a total noob would ask? Why would a supposed breeding expert, or one who seems to think he is, ask stupid questions about f2 crosses? why wouldnt you just try it and see? if youre really that clueless then maybe you should focus more on learning and gaining experience instead of giving out neg rep to stroke your ego.

the truth is simple: youre just another one of the many nutswingers on this forum, who would never have an original thought if his life depended on it. Einstein said if a person truly understands a concept, he could explain it to a 5 year old. those who dont know what the fuck theyre talking about on the other hand, usually hide behind huge walls of text and technical vocabulary, make nonsensical statements, and pretty much do everything in their power to disguise the fact they dont have a clue. guess which category you fit in?

in conclusion im not spending a fucking hour looking up every word in your post just so i can understand whatever bullshit argument you are trying to make, which is likely wrong anyway, and doesnt even seem to have anything to do with the subject of discussion. so either try simplifying and condensing your post into some kind of half ass understandable argument, or go find somebody else to badger with your nonsense.

 

[Mate Dave]

LoL!

 

[xmobotx]

Any idea why some intersexed plants need stress to express the 'hermie gene' and others don't?

this is actually a factor which complicates observation

we tend to assume a plant presents as herm because we had a timer malfunction or ???? but it may have anyway? Then, we are typically compiling our "data" w/ anecdotal 2nd and 3rd person stories as our "citations."

hermaphroditism *to me* does not seem to pass in the same fashion as 'traits'

i.e. we don't typically see 50% herm to 50% female as illustrated above

BUT; maybe we do have a group of 50% which have a propensity to herm if stressed

so, one experiment which could be conducted is to take that seed group and stress them all so that as many herm as will {might be good to run a control from the same batch of seeds minus the stress ~but that's a side note}

in open pollination; you tend to get mostly females then males then some herm ~i see a pattern which favors survival in the fem dominant population

now; say that population was stressed further {volcano, comet, whatever} does it seem like a tendency to have more hermaphrodites could see the population through a disaster?

 

[Tom Hill]

environmental stress is ever present, the degree changes, but it's ever present.