photo credit goes to selfhemployed.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=185081
i can find you some 2-3 pound indoor plants grown with vertical bulbs if you need more proof...
Horizontal vs Vertically hanging the bulb
- Thread starter Bobbo4200
- Start date
photo credit goes to selfhemployed.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=185081
i can find you some 2-3 pound indoor plants grown with vertical bulbs if you need more proof...
despite all the talk of higher yields with vertical bulbs, in reality nearly all the good vert grows posted here that ive seen are still struggling to get 1 GPW ( or 2 pounds a 1000W light ) - and there are plenty of horizontal grows matching or even beating those yields.
at the end of the day, you are only getting the same amount of photons from a bulb whichever way you hang it, and saying that you 'waste half the light' with a horizontal is nonsense, a good reflector will spread your light evenly and the plants appreciate the diffuse light from a reflector that isnt coming from a point source.
the idea of 'getting plants closer to the bulb' doesnt help with GPW yields because you actually want the bulb the correct distance away from the plants as this will give you the optimum canopy space that is evenly lit rather than one very small, very bright spot.
im not saying that one way is necessarily better than the other, but just because the vert guys talk about 'maximum yields' it doesnt mean a great deal in practice from what ive seen.
VG
at the end of the day, you are only getting the same amount of photons from a bulb whichever way you hang it, and saying that you 'waste half the light' with a horizontal is nonsense, a good reflector will spread your light evenly and the plants appreciate the diffuse light from a reflector that isnt coming from a point source.
the idea of 'getting plants closer to the bulb' doesnt help with GPW yields because you actually want the bulb the correct distance away from the plants as this will give you the optimum canopy space that is evenly lit rather than one very small, very bright spot.
im not saying that one way is necessarily better than the other, but just because the vert guys talk about 'maximum yields' it doesnt mean a great deal in practice from what ive seen.
VG
I never said I would yield more than horizontal.
What gets lost in translation is, the idea that, if you hang them vertically, you then have space to move in the room.
Take for example my garden.
I have a room 8x12. So roughly 100sqft. Now, I could hang 6kw horizontal in there, but then the entire floor space is taken up.
Now look at how it is actually setup. Still just 100sqft of floor space but the canopy when full will be at least 100sqft up to 140sqft, and I have space to circumnavigate the room
So, I possibly could yield a little more if the canopy fills out fully, the 40%increase in canopy space might not beget a 40% increase in yield but I'm sure it will give me an increase.
To sum it up, it allows you to run more lights in a limited space, gives greater canopy area than horizontal, and their is no reflective loss.
Put those factors together with an experienced grower and I can assure you you'll yield more in a given space vertically than you will horizontally.
I really hate gpw, such a stupid number. GpKwh is the only way to compare yields of energy usage, and Grpsqft of canopy and floor space are the two to use for yield by space.
What gets lost in translation is, the idea that, if you hang them vertically, you then have space to move in the room.
Take for example my garden.
I have a room 8x12. So roughly 100sqft. Now, I could hang 6kw horizontal in there, but then the entire floor space is taken up.
Now look at how it is actually setup. Still just 100sqft of floor space but the canopy when full will be at least 100sqft up to 140sqft, and I have space to circumnavigate the room
So, I possibly could yield a little more if the canopy fills out fully, the 40%increase in canopy space might not beget a 40% increase in yield but I'm sure it will give me an increase.
To sum it up, it allows you to run more lights in a limited space, gives greater canopy area than horizontal, and their is no reflective loss.
Put those factors together with an experienced grower and I can assure you you'll yield more in a given space vertically than you will horizontally.
I really hate gpw, such a stupid number. GpKwh is the only way to compare yields of energy usage, and Grpsqft of canopy and floor space are the two to use for yield by space.
are you saying that this is the case using the same wattage for both grows?
What I am saying is that, I never said I would necessarily yield more than I could horizontally.
What I'm sayin, is that if you put two rooms next to each other, one horizontal, one vertical with the same wattage and same environment, iow a controlled experiment,
and you knew your strains, how to prune them, feed them etc, then when everything is maxed, you will yield more.
I'm not saying you'll see 3pounds a light or something, I'm talking you might be able to squeeze a few extra Ozs of a light.
Those guys hitting 2.5 a light are using growth hormones and have 20kw banging(mad side lighting and overlap) and they run sealed rooms with co2. And they veg for a while, and run sog.
I know of no horizontal grower that has grown 3# plants indoors.
What I'm sayin, is that if you put two rooms next to each other, one horizontal, one vertical with the same wattage and same environment, iow a controlled experiment,
and you knew your strains, how to prune them, feed them etc, then when everything is maxed, you will yield more.
I'm not saying you'll see 3pounds a light or something, I'm talking you might be able to squeeze a few extra Ozs of a light.
Those guys hitting 2.5 a light are using growth hormones and have 20kw banging(mad side lighting and overlap) and they run sealed rooms with co2. And they veg for a while, and run sog.
I know of no horizontal grower that has grown 3# plants indoors.
yeah, i disagree, if both grows maxed out i think you would get the same, like i say you only get so many photons from a light. the increased canopy space from vertical comes at the cost of a lower watts/square foot and it all coming from a point source.
None of these are mine
Edit: bs, Type (breed bay . co . uk) no spaces
If the room is designed/ layed out around the bulbs you suffer zero reflective loss, which is 5 percent minimum in a reflector, not to mention losses suffered on walls as even the best horizontal reflectors throw some light sideways.
Bulbs are not a point source of light. A 1k is a foot long.
But really, my biggest argument for the "higher yield" claim is that you couldnt put the amount of light horizontally as you could vertically in the same space.
So, if like me, someone only has 100sqft, I can't run 6 lights horizontally in that space, but I can do it vertically. Therefore I'm yielding more.
we could argue and counter argue for ever, i could claim that plants have evolved to recieve the brightest light from overhead and thus use it more efficiently... i could point out that colas pack together closer in a canopy when they are lit from above...
but at the end of the day i dont see vertical grows ACTUALLY yielding more than horizontal grows in terms of GPW.
perhaps any vert growers who are smashing through the 1gpw mark can post a link to their grows of ive missed them? and yes ive seed heath robinson's, im talking about anyone else
your claim that you can fit more lights in a given area by hanging them vertically may be true, but it would depend on the dimensions of the particular space.. give me any more than 8ft ceiling height an i would consider doing two scrogs on top of each other
VG
but at the end of the day i dont see vertical grows ACTUALLY yielding more than horizontal grows in terms of GPW.
perhaps any vert growers who are smashing through the 1gpw mark can post a link to their grows of ive missed them? and yes ive seed heath robinson's, im talking about anyone else
your claim that you can fit more lights in a given area by hanging them vertically may be true, but it would depend on the dimensions of the particular space.. give me any more than 8ft ceiling height an i would consider doing two scrogs on top of each other
VG
Exactly we can bicker over and over and yes VG great post above 12,000 watts on a 100 Sq foot room scrogs in all four corners doubled up as long as you can control temps what else matters i like that on top of each other scrog hmmmmmm i got 12 foot ceilings in my new grow room leaving me with approx 5 feet of light movement area between both so 2.5 feet per level nice enough to run in line light exhaust there you have it is that running a room efficient maybe have to invest in a portable ladder is all
If i was to decide to go vert or make a vert room i would use all 4 corners of walls hell even middle could you imagine 10,000 plants in 140 sq foot room
this is how i would do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjh97obNgUI
If i was to decide to go vert or make a vert room i would use all 4 corners of walls hell even middle could you imagine 10,000 plants in 140 sq foot room
this is how i would do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjh97obNgUI
yeah dr, maybe as scroggers we see things a bit differently because the yields are already high in horizontal scrog?
what matters most, whatever way you choose to grow, is getting the most buds into the canopy and making full use of whatever penetration and footprint you have with your lamps.
VG
what matters most, whatever way you choose to grow, is getting the most buds into the canopy and making full use of whatever penetration and footprint you have with your lamps.
VG
1st- light intensity outside is the same at the ground as it is 20 feet up. Have you seen how naturally bushy outdoor plants in full sun are? So no, plants actually evolved in a light pattern that is only recreatable with a vertical/horizontal combo indoors.
2nd- if the plants are growing horizontally you can pack them just as tight.
but at the end of the day i dont see vertical grows ACTUALLY yielding more than horizontal grows in terms of GPW.
perhaps any vert growers who are smashing through the 1gpw mark can post a link to their grows of ive missed them? and yes ive seed heath robinson's, im talking about anyone else
Well obviously because you haven't seen it it doesn't exist. Great argument.
Gpw is a useless measure except for dick measuring, GpKwh is what to use. That, and grams per sqft of canopy and floor space.
your claim that you can fit more lights in a given area by hanging them vertically may be true, but it would depend on the dimensions of the particular space.. give me any more than 8ft ceiling height an i would consider doing two scrogs on top of each other
VG
Imagine that, and the walls covered. The ultimate in efficient yield; vertical lighting, high plant count sog, fast room turnaround, very little vegetative energy, maximum canopy area...
Doc I'm using all four walls and the middle.
I'm just not doing it sog style because I don't like more than a hundred plants, at any location.
6k horizontal, and I wouldn't be able to get in there.
im a gardener/garden designer by trade so yes i have seen. midday sun from overhead is the most intense light that plants receive as it has the highest angle of incidence and the least atmosphere to travel through.
but they grow at best diagonally upwards from what ive seen, and the colas dont pack together as efficiently when using their long axis.
ah, some sarcasm, well done. i browse the forums but like i said... if ive missed any then please post em up!
ok, of you prefer grams per sq ft then this plant was 100 grams per square foot, or 1.6 gpw - and thats done under a 250! you wouldnt be able to grow all that in a square foot of vertical canopy.
Imagine that, and the walls covered. The ultimate in efficient yield; vertical lighting, high plant count sog, fast room turnaround, very little vegetative energy, maximum canopy area...
i dont have to imagine my grows and yields, i only talk about yields when ive grown the plants and harvested them. up to that point it's just hot air.
i also dont do high plant counts so sog not an option for me.
each to his own
VG
Again using your limited view. Stagger them. Or prune, train, and leave the light directly even with them during stretch instead of lifting it to promote upward stretch.
No offense intended, just pointing the logical fallacy out.
Ya gotta give more detail then that. Dimensions, total. What was gram per kilowatt hour as gpw means nothing in terms of efficiency.
Add veg kwh and flower kwh, divide by grams.
And not to be rude but that's a cab grow, try scaling that up, see how easy it is....
I've hit the same yields both ways. Also witnessed it multiple times first hand.
2# a light, no co2, or pgr's.
Million ways to grow, but like I said, in my situation, the only way to run 6 k is vert.
Actually most of my previous grows are flat, so I'm far from a vert nut, but it has lots of promise when properly utilized.
If your in garden design then you should know vertical garden are hot stuff in greenhouses and on roofs for greens and herbs.
ive been growing for twenty+ years and i can assure you its easier when you scale up - as im sure dr fever will agree.
600's and 1k lamps are more efficient than 250w so more photons per watt. also you have a much deeper useful canopy height. 2ft with a 1k as compared to 6-8" with a 250 - so you can get taller canopy in the same square footage. it does become quite time consuming to scrog that accurately with bigger grows but if you have the time to train properly during stretch then its still a winning method imo.
nice discussing with you, im gonna leave it there. glad you've found a method that you believe in... i know i certainly have.
VG
Scaling up isn't 3kw.
I'm talking 30kw and up.
I'm talking 30kw and up.
It doesn't really matter what your style of growing is, if you master it perfectly. VG seems to have his ducks in a row quite nicely. I've tried modscrog growing after being inspired by VG's cab and had absolutely the worst round ever 
Do I blame the method for falling on my face? Hell no. I just didn't know how the strains would react to the new setup, or didn't anticipate the enviromental problems that I would have with reflectors during peak temperatures in summer.
After growing with many methods (sog, scrog, modscrog, LST, vert donut, letting the plants grow free etc.) and as many setups, the only limiting factor has always been me. I've failed miserably many times, but always learned something useful from the failures. There are pros and cons in every setup and its up to you how well you can utilize the pros and minimize the effect of limiting factors. Blackmans law and all, as beloved Heath would put it.
Vert is great, but its fucking hard to build and maintain an even canopy with donut and low plant numbers. Though I loved the simplicity of the setup and easiness of enviromental control. I will definately revisit this method if I bumb into suitable strains and have the patience for vegging a bit.
Sogging is great, fast turnover and all. But the need for uniform clones in bigger amounts didn't suit my local laws or my lack of cloning skills in the long run. This is the commercial growers method with those who have all the necessary skills or the willingness to learn them. Combined with vertical method, lots of skills and determination, enough balls or looser laws regarding plant numbers, this just might be the holy grail.
Scrogging is great, so easy to control the canopy without exceptional skills if you have an idea what the plant does after you flip the switch. Though if you have a tendency to mess up with nutes or need to flush for other reasons, design your setup accordingly.
The beauty of modscrog allows even more canopy control if you're running many strains etc. Also great if you have to tear down a setup and move it. Combine with vertical lighting and once again great skill, might be a killer setup.
Lessons learned? Whatever you do, do it well! I never have the patience to grow more than few rounds with the same setup, so I have failed a lot. And will continue failing, but also might learn a thing or two in the process.
1. Every harvest is a succesful harvest, but regardless of growing method: a hole in the canopy = hole in the stash bag (or if you are commercial, a hole in your pocket/wallet)
2. Know your strains.
3. Environmental control is crucial. all year around!
4. Know your feeding method, be it soil, coco, hydro or whatever.
5. Know your limiting factors, if you have to be out of town for 2 weeks, maybe hand watering or a setup that otherwise needs continuous attention isn't for you.
6. Have fun while doing it! Everything else is just icing on the cake.
Just my humble observations from 70W-1.2kW grows, with a lot of "learning experiences" and a few occasional successes.
Do I blame the method for falling on my face? Hell no. I just didn't know how the strains would react to the new setup, or didn't anticipate the enviromental problems that I would have with reflectors during peak temperatures in summer.
After growing with many methods (sog, scrog, modscrog, LST, vert donut, letting the plants grow free etc.) and as many setups, the only limiting factor has always been me. I've failed miserably many times, but always learned something useful from the failures. There are pros and cons in every setup and its up to you how well you can utilize the pros and minimize the effect of limiting factors. Blackmans law and all, as beloved Heath would put it.
Vert is great, but its fucking hard to build and maintain an even canopy with donut and low plant numbers. Though I loved the simplicity of the setup and easiness of enviromental control. I will definately revisit this method if I bumb into suitable strains and have the patience for vegging a bit.
Sogging is great, fast turnover and all. But the need for uniform clones in bigger amounts didn't suit my local laws or my lack of cloning skills in the long run. This is the commercial growers method with those who have all the necessary skills or the willingness to learn them. Combined with vertical method, lots of skills and determination, enough balls or looser laws regarding plant numbers, this just might be the holy grail.
Scrogging is great, so easy to control the canopy without exceptional skills if you have an idea what the plant does after you flip the switch. Though if you have a tendency to mess up with nutes or need to flush for other reasons, design your setup accordingly.
The beauty of modscrog allows even more canopy control if you're running many strains etc. Also great if you have to tear down a setup and move it. Combine with vertical lighting and once again great skill, might be a killer setup.
Lessons learned? Whatever you do, do it well! I never have the patience to grow more than few rounds with the same setup, so I have failed a lot.
And will continue failing, but also might learn a thing or two in the process. 1. Every harvest is a succesful harvest, but regardless of growing method: a hole in the canopy = hole in the stash bag (or if you are commercial, a hole in your pocket/wallet)
2. Know your strains.
3. Environmental control is crucial. all year around!
4. Know your feeding method, be it soil, coco, hydro or whatever.
5. Know your limiting factors, if you have to be out of town for 2 weeks, maybe hand watering or a setup that otherwise needs continuous attention isn't for you.
6. Have fun while doing it! Everything else is just icing on the cake.
Just my humble observations from 70W-1.2kW grows, with a lot of "learning experiences" and a few occasional successes.
For a new grower u cant get much simpler then a weed donut in a tent with a six hun hangin vert bare.No hoods to buy and then aircooling lites gets quite complicated and expensive ,scrogs and sogs are left for more experienced growers who have learned thru trail and error ,also a lot easier to cool a bare bulb ive done both and love vert ,and if you want to grow lanky sativas that vary in height vert is the answer u can even start stackin bulbs for a smaller space.Many ways to skin a beaver and for me its minimal work good returns. KISS, But as Verdant Green says to each his own. Rock on gro bros...B
