NOTICE: Azadirachtin Products are NOT safe 'during' flower!

[Hydro-Soil]

Are you supplying "Medicinal Quality" Cannabis to Patients? The Organic pesticides like Azamax, Azatrol and Aza-Sol are NOT safe to spray/drench during flower.

Spraying the first week or two before flowers begin to form is not safe.
Drenching the soil the first day of flower is not safe.

It may take 10 years from the time it's stickied until people understand and stop using it in flower. I don't care. The information needs to be spread as quickly as possible, this stuff is bad news in flower.

This information comes from gardens using indoor lighting with both hydroponic and peat/coco based mixes. Outdoor gardens may break down azadirachtin faster, allowing it to be used day one... I don't have that information and so cannot recommend it at this point. (Should a colorado outdoor grower that uses it the first week or two of flower care to donate an eight... I'll be able to tell conclusively within a few days. As of today, my system is currently saturated and nearly any contaminant at all will set me off for a few hours. This will fade, the longer I have clean meds available.)

Azadirachtin products either do not completely break down or the byproducts are the cause of the issue. Either way, it bio-accumulates in the body until it becomes a problem.

Cannabis sprayed the first week of flower takes up to an 8th oz of the product being smoked (a couple days) before the effects are noticeable.
Cannabis drenched or sprayed 'during' flower (after 2 weeks) causes the symptoms within less than a gram.

Symptoms include:
Muscle tension
Back pain, especially in areas that are damaged
Any pain that comes from increased muscle tension, including neck and jaw pain, finger and other joint pain.
Stomach pain that advances to intense stomach pain
Spontaneous vomiting (advanced poisoning stage, no nausea associated with it)

Relief methods:
Muscle tension... Hot bath/shower, Epsom salts in the bath water helps a bit. Not a 'must have' though.
Stomach Pain... Hot Bath/Shower, distilled alcohol will knock out the pain for a few hours. Alcohol sucks though.
Stomach pain... Keeping some small amount of neutral food in the stomach at all times.

I can tell you right now that most of the people who have problems with this... don't associate it with their cannabis use, because the symptoms build up over a period of time. Your body does not break this stuff down as fast as a general toker is putting it in to their body. The time delay is where the issue is at.

In the past, I have gone to the hospital for intense pain in both back and stomach... it's completely azadirachtin related.

Ever have someone tell you they don't smoke cannabis because it makes their back hurt? I have. Now I know why.


Please use Azadirachtin responsibly. Keep your veg rooms clean with it but don't spray your clones or flowering plants with it. I used to be the biggest pusher of adding it systemically to your flowering hydro res and directly into soil/soiless mediums, the first day of flower.

Please don't do this anymore folks.


Stay Safe!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Once you reach the saturation point for your body... things can be pretty bad.

I toked 1/3rd of a moderate sized doob yesterday at about 10am. It had my stomach and back messed up until almost 7pm that night... All organic grown.

Stay Safe!

 

[lee van keef]

I bet the vast majority of cannabis out there would not come close to passing FDA regulations - and they allow some pretty gnarly stuff due to lobbying pressure and corruption.

So many growers think nothing of hitting their plants with avid, floramite, azatrol, etc all through flower. Then they sell it as medicine. IMO compounds like this shouldn't be used anywhere in the plant's life cycle.

I don't smoke herb unless it was grown by somebody I know with good practices. Comes across as snobby but whatever. If someone turned down my bud because I was a stranger I would understand.

This is the next big controversy around the corner that will be used to attack mmj once the mainstream catches on to just how toxic much of the stuff sold at dispensaries is.

Thanks for bringing it up hydrosoil. Many will take offense.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I bet the vast majority of cannabis out there would not come close to passing FDA regulations - and they allow some pretty gnarly stuff due to lobbying pressure and corruption.

So many growers think nothing of hitting their plants with avid, floramite, azatrol, etc all through flower. Then they sell it as medicine. IMO compounds like this shouldn't be used anywhere in the plant's life cycle.

This is the next big controversy around the corner that will be used to attack mmj once the mainstream catches on to just how toxic much of the stuff sold at dispensaries is.

Thanks for bringing it up hydrosoil. Many will take offense.

The biggest issue is ignorance. It's extremely difficult to explain an issue to someone who doesn't believe there are any issues.

My only hope is they keep the regulations low, while focusing on public education. People who know, shop accordingly and I'm sure there will be plenty of 'lab-certifications' popping up soon.

Until then... it's still hit or miss for most folks.

Stay Safe!

 

[astartes]

Here's actual data from the Pesticide Information Project at Cornell University:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/azadirachtin-ext.html#1

a.

 

[Aeroguerilla]

i hate using avid + floramite... but until there is something organic that actually works i will stick with the killer shit

would never spray a plant in flower with it.. thats just wrong and simply done out of greed

 

[Hydro-Soil]

i hate using avid + floramite... but until there is something organic that actually works i will stick with the killer shit

would never spray a plant in flower with it.. thats just wrong and simply done out of greed

Interesting... I've not had to use anything else yet... (knock on wood) going to require a bit more work in the veg room and stricter controls in the flower room.

No perpetuals for me anymore. Just too easy to lose, because there's not much you can do.

Stay Safe!

 

[foomar]

Here are some medical comments regarding the use of neem products , if the amount present from any reasonable plant use would survive a flame is open for speculation.

Some individuals can be hyper sensitive to certain synthetic and oranic compounds , and there can be problems of interaction with some prescription meds at very low levels.

Much research has been done esp in India with useing neem as an effective contraceptive , has traditional use for this and as an abortifact in high dose.

Neem appears to be safe for most adults, when taken by mouth for a short period of time. When neem is taken in large doses or for long periods of time, it might be UNSAFE. It might harm the kidneys and liver.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Children: Neem is UNSAFE for children. Serious side effects in infants and small children can happen within hours after taking neem oil. These serious side effects include vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, blood disorders, seizures, loss of consciousness, coma, brain disorders, and death.

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Neem oil and neem bark are UNSAFE to use during pregnancy. They can cause a miscarriage.

“Auto-immune diseases” such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Neem might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it’s best to avoid using neem.

Diabetes: There is some evidence that neem can lower blood sugar levels and might cause blood sugar to go too low. If you have diabetes and use neem, monitor your blood sugar carefully. It might be necessary to change the dose of your diabetes medication.

Reduced ability to have children (infertility): There is some evidence that neem can harm sperm. It might also reduce fertility in other ways. If you are trying to have children, avoid using neem.

Organ transplant: There is a concern that neem might decrease the effectiveness of medications that are used to prevent organ rejection. Do not use neem if you have had an organ transplant.

Surgery: Because neem might lower blood sugar levels, there is a concern that it might interfere with blood sugar control during and after surgery. Stop using neem at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Yes, I came across that information before as well.

Keep in mind, all of this info is from people who are using neem oil... not the azadirachtin concentrates that are so popular these days.


Also, as I stated earlier, none of them are burning or high-heat vaporizing the oil and studying the effects, the same as smoking contaminated meds would. As far as surviving the heat of the flame? Yes, most 'hit's consist of quite a bit of 'vaporized' oils and 'hopefully' a small amount of destroyed oils. (edit: Otherwise, all we'd be doing is destroying the cannabis oils. Azadirachtin is an oil... vaporizes just the same)

This is not some passing lark or weird idea I came up with, I've been dealing with this for a number of years now and have finally verified it for myself... way beyond any possible doubt.

What I post here will become universal truth, as more information comes out of it. I'll tell you now it's a MASSIVE problem in the areas where growers use it. Time will prove it.

Stay Safe!

 

[astartes]

finally verified it for myself... way beyond any possible doubt.

Foomar, do you have an idea of the dosages in what you posted? I ask because in the case of growers, the half-life of Azadirachtin can range from 48 minutes to 44 days depending upon application method.

Any product on the market (not just pesticides) will likely have individuals hyper-sensitive to it.

To be fair, the medical comments section is peppered with qualifiers of 'can' and 'might'. I'm a scientist by trade, so I always look for the data, rather than the talking points.

a.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

A little more background information...

I've been growing with the same nutrients and pretty much the same way for 10 years now. The only recent change has been in the last 3 years, the addition of azamax or azatrol on the first day of flower to control mites and other pests. Never had a reason to before.

Since then I have run meds without the addition of azamax or azatrol, all variables staying the same. Intaking any previous meds where azadirachtin products were used... brought back the same symptoms.

Meds compared side by side, I could tell the difference in taste, even though I'd only used a root drench on day one of flower. 70+ day strains.

Subsequent use of locally grown meds by other growers has produced the same results.

The only NON-variable in the equation each time... azadirachtin products.

After 3 years... my body has had enough of that crap and can't take any more. I recognize the symptoms in people around me... it's too subtle for them to understand though. Sad.

The worst are the folks using this stuff medicinally... and on the back end, it's hurting them pretty bad.

Stay Safe!

 

[KONY]

i dont see any evidence besides your opinion, ive used azamax in flower for mites a few years ago via root drench and not noticed any of these results, then again i only used 1-2ml per gallon at week 3, 5 and 7 on a 12 week strain.

got way worse smoke from using non organic nutes and over feeding and underflushing.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

i dont see any evidence besides your opinion, ive used azamax in flower for mites a few years ago via root drench and not noticed any of these results, then again i only used 1-2ml per gallon at week 3, 5 and 7 on a 12 week strain.

Doesn't surprise me a bit. I never went over 5ml/gal and used it through a few grows... without noticing anything myself.

It's only in retrospect that I can put the pieces together and now understand what was going on during those times.

I live around 2 different communities that are full of growers using this... especially the organic growers. It's either that, the taste of pyrethrins or some new 'oil' with an odd, almost minty/menthol, flavor to it. My only concern at this point are the azadirachtin users.


Stay Safe!

 

[foomar]

Foomar, do you have an idea of the dosages in what you posted? I ask because in the case of growers, the half-life of Azadirachtin can range from 48 minutes to 44 days depending upon application method.

This is a common statement on a number of medical sites connected to reputable listed companies that promote the use of neem based products direct to the public as a health supplement and other personal uses.

Cannot find any hard figures as to doseage , its safety is assumed to be high based on historical use in general Indian traditional medicine .

When my daughter went for IVF , she was told to avoid all neem products as even a handcreme would lower her chance of conseption.



It might not be the azad in neem causeing your apparent sensitivity , its a variable mixture and half the product is unknown.
If it was a synthetic product rather than a natural concentrate , there would be a lot more testing done.

The Meeting was provided with commercially confidential information on the
manufacturing process for azadirachtin in the form of NeemAzal© (TK) and batch
analysis data were provided for all identified components ≥1 g/kg and on proposed
relevant impurities <1 g/kg. Mass balances were considered acceptable for a
botanical pesticide (34.6-47.5%), the remainder apparently consisting mainly of
unidentified natural product impurities. The commercially confidential information
and toxicological/eco-toxicological data were confirmed as being identical to those
submitted for registration of NeemAzal© products in Germany.

This pdf goes into some detail of half lives and tox.

 

[Payaso]

We could debate opinions forever in this thread, and end up with many folks fighting to get in the last word here... However interesting the topic may be to us all, we need to remember that bashing other members and making statements about other people's mental capacity will end up badly.

I am sure there is much scientific evidence pointing to the safety of chemicals. I also believe there is a growing acceptance of the fact that some natural products may be safer than some chemical alternatives.

People come in all shapes sizes and colors, and some people react differently to chemicals or even natural substances in different ways than others.

I know people who can not abide even the slightest contact with polyester. That doesn't mean that everyone should never use that fabric.

Organic growers know enough already about avoiding chemicals, and the commercial growers or non-organic people do need to realize that some folks are sensitive to chemicals...

It's all about comprehension of the issues at hand (knowledge equals power) and compassion for the safety and health of others. Not to mention the safety of the planet.

Balance.

Peace,
~Payaso

 

[astartes]

Doesn't surprise me a bit. I never went over 5ml/gal and used it through a few grows... without noticing anything myself.

It's only in retrospect that I can put the pieces together and now understand what was going on during those times.
:

This would be considered cherry-picking. Deciding on the conclusion and going back to find 'data' supporting such claims. Findings of this manner would never make it past the first peer-review stage for submission, case study size of a single individual with no control group notwithstanding.

Foomar,

Thanks for posting up the MSDS. I was aware that there were issues with infertility, but wish there was a bit more in terms of data. In the Cornell project, there was a marked reduction in male fertility when fed cold-pressed neem extract from green leaves over a period of six weeks. No concentration was reported. In the MSDS you posted, it looks even at 750mg/kg, there was no observed effect in a two generation acute 105 week study of mice. The safety certainly is assumed to be high, as there's data supporting such finding.

That said, I can certainly see why your daughter's IVF doctor cautioned against the use of neem-based products.

I certainly agree that the other components could be causing an issue. At the same time, judging from Hydro-Soil's avatar, the 15+ other ailments he suffers from could easily be a confounding factor as well.

As far as this thread goes, I'll trust science-based medicine (with statistically and scientifically valid numbers) over the psuedo-science trying to be passed off by the OP.

a.

 

[kmk420kali]

Azadirachtin products either do not completely break down or the byproducts are the cause of the issue. Either way, it bio-accumulates in the body until it becomes a problem.

Cannabis sprayed the first week of flower takes up to an 8th oz of the product being smoked (a couple days) before the effects are noticeable.
Cannabis drenched or sprayed 'during' flower (after 2 weeks) causes the symptoms within less than a gram.

Symptoms include:
Muscle tension
Back pain, especially in areas that are damaged
Any pain that comes from increased muscle tension, including neck and jaw pain, finger and other joint pain.
Stomach pain that advances to intense stomach pain
Spontaneous vomiting (advanced poisoning stage, no nausea associated with it)

References??

 

[EclipseFour20]

Anything in excess is not safe...like water--but if you use water responsibly, your harvest will not suffer one bit. Same is true with any pesticide: organic or non-organic--used responsibly, your harvest will not suffer one bit.

Now...the real debate is "what is responsible". I agree, if anyone used Azadirachtin at the levels to be harmful and toxic, the conditions you describe MIGHT exist...as that would NOT be responsible.

 

[foomar]

From talking with family , the traditional village uses for neem back in India were creams and lotions for lice on people and stock , purgatives and emetics , and a reasonably effective potion for stopping periods as a contraceptive.

Since cheap ultrasound scanners have been available , a high shock dose as a vaginal pessary is commonly used to cause an abortion of unwanted girls .

Its insecticidal properties are long known and documented , but only became of world interest post war when other natural products like pyrethrum and rotenone were loseing effect through overuse.


Local scumbag sees no problem spraying a crop with floramite or anything to hand , a few days before harvest.

If i had to randomly buy bud i would quit.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

From talking with family , the traditional village uses for neem back in India were creams and lotions for lice on people and stock , purgatives and emetics , and a reasonably effective potion for stopping periods as a contraceptive.

Again...

We're not talking about neem. We're talking about a chemical extract which, you posted yourself, consists of mostly unknown compounds. I find that information even more interesting as it would be more likely to be something they weren't testing for. (see below)

As far as the press about it breaking down in 48 minutes to 44 days... that only applies to the azadirachtin they're testing for... Their testing would not be for any of the unknown compounds that are also in that mix.

I know I'm not the only one that's had issues with this. I'm just waiting for those that do to realize it as well. Time will show, I have no doubts.

Concentration? I've had stuff I couldn't taste/smell it on... just takes a few days longer when your system is already saturated. Again... bio-accumulation is a bitch.

I wouldn't use it on anything but vegging mums and fresh cut clones that will get a few weeks veg. At least not anymore. Even then I'm not looking forward to that not being long enough, perhaps only on vegging mums? *shrug* Time will tell.

Stay Safe!