NPK and ACT help me clear up the myth?

[3gunpete]

Microb, I appreciate your efforts of enhanced congeniality. As well sincerely value your input. No need to further preface that.
I however was under the impression that was more or less the original topic/ question. I believ MosesWF and I(now)for that matter wer wondering just how far this ACT can take you, what others were actually experiencing using stand alone mixes, act etc..

Anyway I'd just like to take another minute to say something that's on my mind. Adressed to no one in particular.
Respect is something people from our canna culture rarely receives from the rest of the world. I'd like to think we can at least muster some for our fellow canna-soldiers. We come from different places, Possess vastly different attributes, different ideals, morals and opinions. We should still be respectful. After all most of us are here to fulfill our own needs while helping out when we can. Don't forget to smile.

 

[moses wellfleet]

I'm hoping not to sound egoistic here but has anyone here actually suggested using ACT as a stand alone?

that is the impreesion i get from the organic soil forum. i think mad libbretist actually said it out aloud, i shall blame him cos he is gone and cant deny it (hows that for a straw man argument cootz?) i could go dig up the post if i really get bored.

let me ask you guys the question like this: you are happy with your growth in veg stage, which you take as a sign that your ACT is being made properly. but when you flip the plants they do not live up to your expectations of yield, and you are feeding only ACT. what would you do to increase yield?

 

[DuckDuckGoose]

that is the impreesion i get from the organic soil forum. i think mad libbretist actually said it out aloud, i shall blame him cos he is gone and cant deny it (hows that for a straw man argument cootz?) i could go dig up the post if i really get bored.

let me ask you guys the question like this: you are happy with your growth in veg stage, which you take as a sign that your ACT is being made properly. but when you flip the plants they do not live up to your expectations of yield, and you are feeding only ACT. what would you do to increase yield?

i would apply more light. then check my temp, humidity, air exchange and co2 levels. if all of those are in check....i guess you can start to evaluate your soil and feedings. it may require additional inputs...or maybe you just need to reuse the soil as it may not have reached it's potential. although i have yet to recycle my soil, many claim that it gets better with time. the soil may need more aeration as to provide adequate oxygen to the root zone...maybe not enough water was provided..... you can see how many factors could be at play.

question....

lets say you are growing hydroponically and you are experiencing the exact same issue...plants not living up to expectations of yield... and you are only feeding them the standard base nutes... what would you do? would you go get the sooper uber dooper bud schnooper 2001?

DDG

 

[ClackamasCootz]

what would you do to increase yield?

Using a better humus source would be one suggestion...

 

[DuckDuckGoose]

Using a better humus source would be one suggestion...

i forgot...evaluate your original humus source...was it bad ass to begin with?

thanks cootz for always bringing it to the top of the list...humus is king.

when all else fails... use Gypsie Magic or stir your water backwards with a snakes spine (i use a rattlesnake, the rattle makes a comfy handle) while standing on your head reciting cannabis mantras. make sure this is performed during a lunar eclipse or it's simply a waste of time.
always works for me...over 2lbs a light guaranteed just like Adavanced Nutrients.

DDG

 

[Oregonism]

i would apply more light. then check my temp, humidity, air exchange and co2 levels. if all of those are in check....i guess you can start to evaluate your soil and feedings. it may require additional inputs...or maybe you just need to reuse the soil as it may not have reached it's potential. although i have yet to recycle my soil, many claim that it gets better with time. the soil may need more aeration as to provide adequate oxygen to the root zone...maybe not enough water was provided..... you can see how many factors could be at play.

question....

lets say you are growing hydroponically and you are experiencing the exact same issue...plants not living up to expectations of yield... and you are only feeding them the standard base nutes... what would you do? would you go get the sooper uber dooper bud schnooper 2001?

DDG

You can't compare ACT to hydro base nutes. Not even in the same realm. But I guess you knew that.

 

[DuckDuckGoose]

You can't compare ACT to hydro base nutes. Not even in the same realm. But I guess you knew that.

it wasn't meant to be a comparison between ACT and hydro base nutes, i asked a question relating to the exact scenario in a hydro set up. so what would you do oregonism? rather than flame on, provide constructive info...

 

[Neo 420]

let me ask you guys the question like this: you are happy with your growth in veg stage, which you take as a sign that your ACT is being made properly. but when you flip the plants they do not live up to your expectations of yield, and you are feeding only ACT. what would you do to increase yield?

Increase quality OM inputs. (Get the best damn EWC and compost you can source..)
Larger volume of media (container size)
Diversify OM inputs
Longer nutrient cycling (compost'n)
adequate arthropoda (OM decomposers, transporting organisms, digesting fungi, aeration, etc...)
Addition of bio-char
Learn and explore about clays in relation to you soil needs.....
Minerals (with due time for breakdown)
Canopy Management (very important in yield relation)
Explore FPE's, plants soaks and the like (kelp/alfalfa bubbles is the bizness!!)
Diverse ACT teas and sprout tea's
Create the most comfortable environment you can for your microbes. (and external environment for your plants)

Now dial all that in with your specific strain. And as your soil ages (no till or till) it just better....

That's what I am doing to increase yields (as well as quality)......

 

[Microbeman]

that is the impreesion i get from the organic soil forum. i think mad libbretist actually said it out aloud, i shall blame him cos he is gone and cant deny it (hows that for a straw man argument cootz?) i could go dig up the post if i really get bored.

let me ask you guys the question like this: you are happy with your growth in veg stage, which you take as a sign that your ACT is being made properly. but when you flip the plants they do not live up to your expectations of yield, and you are feeding only ACT. what would you do to increase yield?

Mad was hardly an authority. I myself have always stressed that having a living soil is essential, at least to my form of gardening. There have been times when I have grown using only ACT as an ongoing nutrient base but my soil has been comprised of upwards of 75% organic matter.

Otherwise, I've posted my general cannabis growing method here multiple times in detail but really can't rewrite presently. I do not think that a soil once amended is 100% perpetual. We used ACT, fish hydrolysate, molasses, vermicompost, kelpmeal, alfalfameal topdress and EM & worms between harvest; 64 days max plant to harvest; 1.2 pounds (indica) per light; 5 years same soil; notill

Here come the micro nazis

CCootes, I believe you have fans here and probably for a decent reason. But so far on this thread you've done nothing more than insert little quips

 

[W89]

Can't argue with FACTS hey MM?

 

[ghostmade]

tag

 

[moses wellfleet]

Mad was hardly an authority. I myself have always stressed that having a living soil is essential, at least to my form of gardening. There have been times when I have grown using only ACT as an ongoing nutrient base but my soil has been comprised of upwards of 75% organic matter.

Otherwise, I've posted my general cannabis growing method here multiple times in detail but really can't rewrite presently. I do not think that a soil once amended is 100% perpetual. We used ACT, fish hydrolysate, molasses, vermicompost, kelpmeal, alfalfameal topdress and EM & worms between harvest; 64 days max plant to harvest; 1.2 pounds (indica) per light; 5 years same soil no till

thanx MM could you please post a link to your cannabis growing method i have never seen it?

 

[3gunpete]

Nice to see everyone being civil.
Microbe as usual, Thanx for that info. It seems as tho you might still be harboring emotion from my joke about the micro nazi thing. I sincerely hope I haven't burned you as was not my real intention. Much respect. And I publicly apologize for any offense. It seems as tho my message has been recieve tho.

Now we can discuss peeps experiences, trials and tribulations.

More truthiness divulges its self all the time. People come in with all these great reasons yield may be effected. However, I find it dis heartening when someone says these are all the areas you should look at in regards to this method, and by the way I've never tried it myself.

Not trying to be rude. However everyone here is aware of all the environmental restrictions effects on growth. Any beginner grow book/bible covers that stuff.

We are now getting to the bottom of the pile of happy hoarse shit. Hehe
The real "secret" to using act or modified act is using recycled soil?? That has been living in total harmony un hithered by deficiencies etc. perpetually building the humus content so that the soil itself is living breathing entity. But at that point why would you even need act type tea?? If your soil is already alive and rich in humus??

 

[3gunpete]

Moses - you obviously know what your doing. Parameters outside of what is going on in your soil at root level are on point. You have achieved great yields with feed and greed style as many have (myself included).
But now that we are attempting more natural style grow method, we see disparities in regards to weight accumulation later in flowering cycle.
This is my point. In nature these processes occur all the time. It is the formula for life.
BUT!! Where is the landrace or even hybrid that is growing in nature, unfed that is producing epic or even generally excepted harvest weights for modern growing? Yes there are zillions of variables in nature as with horticulture. And yes, most of our planets soil is not nearly as nurtured as these said super recycled, humus infused meccas of life we are referencing.

And perhaps yet, I'm missing something. Or my recycling and humus building skills are under developed. I am not sure. What I do know is there seems to be a separation or trade off between achieving this living soil type of growing and harvest weight.

I for one do not mind getting less if percieved quality and palatibility is increased. There is a reason I never used synthetics when all my friends were trumping my harvest weights. Now I can rival or out perform them using naturally amended soil.
So perhaps one day I may be able to do the same using act and recycled soil.
An open mind is an open door...Time will tell.

I just can't help thinking if this is possible. Why are we not saving the world with this relatively cheap and sustaining method??
There are many educated humanitarians with vast degrees in related fields that would dedicate themselves to teaching these methods to impoverished people. Right? Or wrong?

Last time I brought this up. I got a couple quick conspiracy quips. No one cared to back up or even explain themselves. ** not trying to start shit here. I'm just wondering and believe its relevant.

 

[Microbeman]

But at that point why would you even need act type tea?? If your soil is already alive and rich in humus??

Are we now going in circles? (said Socrates)

The real "secret" to using act or modified act is using recycled soil??

Is it? I did not say that.

Why are we not saving the world with this relatively cheap and sustaining method??

Indeed, why are we not? Some are. Some are being stopped. There were books on the subject at the end of the 1800s.

Why do we use money? Why are engines run on petro rather than non-polluting substances? Why do Aboriginals live in poverty on reservations?


Hint: It is a one word answer.

 

[3gunpete]

Wasn't looking for combat. Just clarification.
Books were written long ago on this subject, yes. But as many researchers will admit complete functions and processing relations are not all understood, science is fluid, "Tim williams"
Circles, cycles, wordcycles! Thanx Socrates.


Umm. I'm going to go with GREED, for five thousand bob.

Money was created for universal representation within its capacity to do so. It's now evolved into many representaions/realities bound by curroption and misrepresentation woven deeply within the fabric of modern society.

We use petro engines mostly because that is where we started to evolve from at the beginning of our technological boom. Inovation must start somewhere. It was one of the ways we achieved what we have. Archaic or not, for better of for worse.
The better question is why do we continue to practice outdated methods and systems that are flawed. Ok, maybe your one word answer goes here too.

We can tear this apart, in regards to social structure, lies, greed, corporate might, power elite, etc. however at some point I'd really love to stop hearing excuses for us poor hindered masses. We have the power we want and nothing more. IMHO.
For the Last one. Well... I'd have to say its a harsh reality of life. We have not been out of the jungle for very long as a species. We fear what we don't kno or understand. Our species is one that thrives of of self preservation and expandtion. Self preservation has manifested into greed. Expandtion(coupled with fear & or dominance)into dominion over others.
We as a species on a large scale historically evolved similar too other animalia. HOWEVER, our brain capacity and the rate in which it's evolved has been paramount to any thing we can explain or understand. We are presently evolving within the structures we create, belong too, or run from. We are at battle with our prehistoric reptile brain and the constant evolution from our beginnings.

We are NOW capable of sharing info at warp speeds across seemingly limitless boundaries. Globalization is everywhere. Will we fix all our problems, No. Are we able to right all our wrongs, no.
But we can stop making excuses and asserting blame on the powers at be. We the people truly have the power. Wether we use it or not.
So... With all the innovation, media outlets(controlled or not), universities, private schools, environmental focused schools, & innovators from around the world no longer bound by church restrictions or tyrannical dictatorship, we still need a scape goat.
Yes, a very complicated system with some restrictions on certain levels, BUT to say any one word and it's implications are finite is misleading at best.

If and when I achieve the results from using recycled soil and act alone, I will gladly shout it from the mtn. tops and share with the world. Or,just post it on obscure canna forum. And preach to the choir. Hehe

Nothing but respect, love and knowledge!! And maybe a dash of humor..

 

[moses wellfleet]

I found this in a book by an Aussie guy:
NPK of vermicast

An NPK analysis of vermicast would show something like 1:1:1. Vermicast is produced from organic materials that have taken up minerals in exactly the ratio in which they were needed to produce and sustain growth. Therefore the minerals are contained in castings in a natural balance such as is required for vigorous healthy growth
. In ordinary soil, plants usually have to seek them out but, in vermicast, they are readily available when they are needed. Significantly in vermicast there is no excess of nitrates and phosphates, which are water soluble and which, when applied in much higher concentrations in manufactured fertilizers, dissolve in run off to pollute our land and waterways.

The great influencing factor of the NPK of vermicast is, of course, the organic matter ingested by the worms. Worms can't manufacture any nutrients, only liberate them. If the ingested matter is nitrogen rich, then so too will be the castings; but if the matter is nitrogen poor, the castings will be too. However the nutritional value of worm castings is not the point. The value of vermicast lies in the plant growth stimulants, the cationic exchange rate and the soil benevolent biota.

One of the great difficulties in promoting vermicast is that growers will frequently
Request an analysis. Invariably, such a request is made on the basis that vermicast is a fertilizer and not a biological stimulant. These analyses will detail the mineral content, not the important biological content. So vermicast frequently fails the assessment of being able to provide essential minerals to soil. But that is not what it's about.

Applying vermicast instead of fertilizers to soil is like giving a hungry man a fishing line instead of a fish. Once the fish is eaten, it's gone; but with a fishing line, he has the ability to access food far into the future. Vermicast is the fishing line, the bait, and the skill all rolled into one! The biota introduced to the soil in vermicast (or its derivatives) can work away out of sight, releasing the minerals already there and trapping free nitrogen from the atmosphere.

Cationic exchange rate

An important and often unrecognized feature of vermicast is its cationic exchange rate. This is the rate at which the cat ionic soil trace elements can attach themselves to vermicast.

Everything in nature has an electrical charge. Some charges are positive, cations, and some are negative, anions. Organic vegetative matter is anionic and, because vermicast is highly vegetative matter, it is strongly anionic. Most trace elements are cationic.

In simple terms this means that trace elements are attracted to vermicast and readily bond to it in the same way that opposite poles of a magnet attract each other. Plants have a stronger pull than than the vermicast and can therefore draw the trace elements away from the vermicast and into their roots.

Phosphorous is one of the essential trace elements that are negatively charged, same as the organic matter. P is therefore repelled by vegetative matter and will lie loosely in the soil. When rain comes, because the P is not bonded to anything, it is readily washed away. P is often blamed for stimulating growth of water plants, and of upsetting the ecology of the fish environment. This is because ultimately loose unbonded P will be washed into the waterways; it can't go anywhere else.

Organic growing with worms

By David Murphy

 

[moses wellfleet]

I bumped this cos I wanna see if peeps around here agree with the above post?

 

[Coba]

I bumped this cos I wanna see if peeps around here agree with the above post?

yes sir... that's fundamental stuff right there.

"The biota introduced to the soil in vermicast (or its derivatives) can work away out of sight, releasing the minerals already there and trapping free nitrogen from the atmosphere."

there's two different things going on in the above quote... mineralization and nitrogen "fixing" and AFAIK one species won't do both actions... diversity is important.

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[Microbeman]

See comments in bold

I found this in a book by an Aussie guy:
NPK of vermicast

An NPK analysis of vermicast would show something like 1:1:1. Vermicast is produced from organic materials that have taken up minerals in exactly the ratio in which they were needed to produce and sustain growth. Therefore the minerals are contained in castings in a natural balance such as is required for vigorous healthy growth
. In ordinary soil, plants usually have to seek them out but, in vermicast, they are readily available when they are needed.


MM:
Nutrients are accessed in the same fashion as usual, through microbial processing or by organic acids exuded from roots. If they were readily available, already in the soil solution, they would be prone to leaching. It is possible that the author understands this but has just not fully expressed this.


Significantly in vermicast there is no excess of nitrates and phosphates, which are water soluble and which, when applied in much higher concentrations in manufactured fertilizers, dissolve in run off to pollute our land and waterways.

The great influencing factor of the NPK of vermicast is, of course, the organic matter ingested by the worms. Worms can't manufacture any nutrients, only liberate them. If the ingested matter is nitrogen rich, then so too will be the castings; but if the matter is nitrogen poor, the castings will be too. However the nutritional value of worm castings is not the point. The value of vermicast lies in the plant growth stimulants, the cationic exchange rate and the soil benevolent biota.

One of the great difficulties in promoting vermicast is that growers will frequently
Request an analysis. Invariably, such a request is made on the basis that vermicast is a fertilizer and not a biological stimulant. These analyses will detail the mineral content, not the important biological content. So vermicast frequently fails the assessment of being able to provide essential minerals to soil. But that is not what it's about.

MM
This also holds true for thermophilic compost.

Applying vermicast instead of fertilizers to soil is like giving a hungry man a fishing line instead of a fish. Once the fish is eaten, it's gone; but with a fishing line, he has the ability to access food far into the future. Vermicast is the fishing line, the bait, and the skill all rolled into one! The biota introduced to the soil in vermicast (or its derivatives) can work away out of sight, releasing the minerals already there and trapping free nitrogen from the atmosphere.

MM
This of course can depend on the microbial population in the vermicompost.

Cationic exchange rate

An important and often unrecognized feature of vermicast is its cationic exchange rate. This is the rate at which the cat ionic soil trace elements can attach themselves to vermicast.

Everything in nature has an electrical charge. Some charges are positive, cations, and some are negative, anions. Organic vegetative matter is anionic and, because vermicast is highly vegetative matter, it is strongly anionic. Most trace elements are cationic.

In simple terms this means that trace elements are attracted to vermicast and readily bond to it in the same way that opposite poles of a magnet attract each other. Plants have a stronger pull than than the vermicast and can therefore draw the trace elements away from the vermicast and into their roots.

MM:
It is not quite this simple; see comment above^


Phosphorous is one of the essential trace elements that are negatively charged, same as the organic matter. P is therefore repelled by vegetative matter and will lie loosely in the soil. When rain comes, because the P is not bonded to anything, it is readily washed away. P is often blamed for stimulating growth of water plants, and of upsetting the ecology of the fish environment. This is because ultimately loose unbonded P will be washed into the waterways; it can't go anywhere else.

Organic growing with worms

By David Murphy