MH vs HPS in bloom

[Talonted]

The best and most effective way to increase essential oils is a cold water flush, most of the time you'll see purple come out in plants that dont normally turn purple as well when using cold water (If you dont want purple, not so cold). The cold water shocks the plant and in turn it activates its defense and produces more oils to protect itself from the cold. This method would be best as you aren't inducing stress while the plant is developing. I do the first half of my 10 day flush with rm temp water then second half i switch to cold, this way the plant has a chance to slightly ripen before shocking. Another way to increase is to lower your room temps at the beginning of your flush, kill the heater or if you have a ozone controller like me just set your night time temps 15 degrees below day time temp in the rearing cycle.

So what exactly are we achieving with MH lamps in flower? if there is more oils then plant i would say that the plant was curious as to what happened to summer and fall then stressed out about it. Under developed and lack of quantity.

Clearly this is all just me ranting as one voice amongst many but common sense comes from experience and i wouldn't spit out a bunch of misinformation without prior knowledge and personal findings. I as well as most that cultivate cannabis for medical purpose have always been intrigued by the pheno that produces the hashplant type qualities and ive tried a diverse amount of recommendations before coming to IC and refining this trick.

long story short why loose weight when you can have gooey and heavy. with 5x 1000 MH on 4 20gal pots i was 11oz short of my run with sodiums and the same pheno. they look pretty under the blue light and its easy to spot problems but i wont be trying any other variants concerning spectrum... Huligun brought this up about DJ short "At any rate he thinks that the key to many strains is the photo period. Instead of switching from 24-7 to 12-12 you may want to do it in increments. My only thoughts on that is that once you throw a plant in shock it spends a good amount of time healing and if you do it in increments it reduces the likelihood of shock. which sums it all up lol PEACE

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

^I just did another side by side. HPS for the WIN. Cold water and cold temps do help purple or yellow or blue or whatever. The key to which color though is the PH of the water. higher PH for purples Low PH for Golds. This is because the plant eats the Phosphorous first with high PH (6.2-7.0) and Phos deficiency turns leaves purple. lower the ph to 5.2 to 5.6 and it will go yellow first from eating the Nitrogen.

 

[ellinho]

^I just did another side by side. HPS for the WIN.

would you bother leaving one bulb as MH or would you change both to HPS?

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

In a 5 bulb room i leave one MH. they seem to like a bit of it. so 20 percent

 

[THriveCompany]

Give them what they want hortilux super HPS for the win... I use in Veg and In Flower...

 

[huligun]

Here is my flower room setup

 

[etinarcadiaego]

Exactly, you dont want a pheno that is a slow grower under MH cause it will get no where fast, i believe that the halides producing more trichome is rediculous. Stress produces more trichome, bugs cause more trichome and Cold weather.

Interesting take. I've flowered under almost every spectrum of HID bulb commercially available. 10K halides, 5K, 3K, all pulse start, plus warm halides, standard EYE Blue halides, plus Horti HPS's and two other brands.

I don't agree that stress causes an increase in resin production, and I've never seen that occur in my experience. The fact of the matter is that there is neither definitive empirical evidence illustrating why cannabis produces stalked capitate trichomes, nor any data proving a grower can, by changing lights or conditions, increase resin production. Personally, I've tried everything I can think of to alter resin production. At first I focused on increasing resin, but since it's hard to really quantify an increase on plants that are already exceptionally potent, I instead sought to significantly decrease resin production, so as to establish some (ANY) correlation between some change in conditions or environ and resin production.

I went to great lengths to conduct these experiments, duplicate conditions, and log my results over several grows of multiple strains. I've done cold weather, warm weather, high/low humidity, high/reg CO2, different nutrients, etc. I have come to believe that while resin production can be altered VERY VERY VERY VERY slightly depending on conditions/medium/nutrients/plant health, that in the end much of this is outside of the grower's control and any observable change is so slight that it makes the effort put in to bring about said change better spent elsewhere. I did however discover ways to increase/alter the smell of a plant slightly.

How does a blue light spectrum trigger the plants defense mechanism??? It doesn't, it only appears to the eye that there are visually more resin because the blue spectrum illuminates the clear glass like structures and reflects it appearing more vibrant and abundant. LEDs work the same way, shine light through a solid transparent and it will illuminate like fiber optics. every month we get someone asking this and its been 31 years since we decided that blue for growing and orange for flowering. mother nature grows shwagg compared to your indoor MH grows if she is using blue for grow and orange for veg like the rest of us.

I agree that higher energy light sources, “bluer” lights can give the impression of more trichome coverage, particularly in photography, but that in reality the overall trichome density remains unchanged. That said; is the goal of an indoor grower to attempt to duplicate the conditions found in nature, or to innovate and improve upon them? And if the latter, how could such an improvement even be possible? Or measurable? I've been many places in this world during the Autumn months, and nowhere have I seen sunlight, even during the fall, that appears to produce as much red light as an HPS.

Cannabis growers, myself included, have unorthodox opinions and divergences thereof on how to grow better, bigger buds. Look anywhere else in agriculture or the botanical world. People and businesses all around the world seek to produce better crops, better flowers and herbs, and yet only in canna do growers seek to do so by altering the type of light they provide, as if there is some special bulb or spectrum that will unlock some secret within the genes of their strains and make it produce nothing but bud and resin, no leaves, no stalks, just buds, lol.

Think about this. Cannabis has been used by humankind for what, 6,000 documented years? Evolving all that time to take advantage of the resources available to it, in the form of sunlight, rain, soil, etc. Only during the last 40 years have we brought our plants inside, and the real indoor leaps/bounds have occurred more recently than that. I'm still of the belief that the best bud is grown not with special lighting or nutrients, but by special growers who pay attention to detail and put in the time to micro-manage their grows and dial everything in. That can only be done experimenting and logging our results and comparing the finished products, which is no small undertaking. The thought of further side-by-side experimentation wearies me. I enjoyed the numerous side/by/side grow experiments I've undertaken, and have learned TONS about how to improve yield, bud and plant structure, and have furthermore debunked myths perpetuated by even esteemed cannabis personalities like Mr. Ed Rosenthal and Skunk Magazine's own "Rev". Rev, for the record, writes about 80% of the printed material in Skunk these days, with subject matter from TLO growing, to how to improve terpines, to tissue culture. So much of what he says is BS that I can hardly read an article of his without getting the urge to call up Skunk Mag and complain. He, like many other in the field, bases his knowledgebase on part experience, and part ignorance. He has actually said that cannabis grown under EYE's Blue Halide is more potent, which was first inspired me to conduct an experiment under the Blue EYE Bulb.

 

[festerous]

I'm going to try A full spectrum MH.

 

[Javadog]

Interesting post, but I have to admit that there was something logical about the theory.

That the increased UV light stimulates the plant to protect itself, and it is these glands
that do this. (right down to explaining why cannabis is so easily spotted from the air)

I will just keep my eyes open.

Thanks,

JD

 

[Bio boy]

talnoted@some ones been shagged by the wrong dog eh , have a spliff dude! its a discussion not a debate

 

[Bio boy]

so ive 2 lights im after yeild wot the fuck am i gona do??? every one is confusing me im under dissability i cant keep up !

 

[huligun]

so ive 2 lights im after yeild wot the fuck am i gona do??? every one is confusing me im under dissability i cant keep up !

Your two lights (HID I assume) should be fine.

This thread appears as a think tank to discuss ways to increase resin. Plant size is not even being discussed.

Many people over-do a lot of stuff to try to get an edge. Fact is, you can grow weed using high bay industrial lights, regular hid bulbs, you can use MH, HPS or even CFL. The trick is adapting to what you have if you in a pinch and maximizing the efficiency the best that you can. If you are not getting enough light move your plants closer, use more reflectors, like under your pots to reflect light back up. You want to a quantum of photons. Bouncing light is okay to add to the numbers. If you get too hot find creative ways to remove the heat. Jorge Cervantes says that controlling heat is more beneficial to the plants than having so much unusable light with associated heat. I am paraphrasing.

 

[etinarcadiaego]

Interesting post, but I have to admit that there was something logical the theory.

That the increased UV light stimulates the plant to protect itself, and it is these glands
that do this. (right down to explaining why cannabis is so easily spotted from the air)

I will just keep my eyes open.

Thanks,

JD

That's never been proven though, and honestly it doesn't really add up if you think about it. If you think about it, there are over 200,000 known species of plants, probably more by most scientific estimates, yet no other species has such a UV protection mechanism. And how does resin protect the plant from UV light? I'd argue that it doesn't . . . UV light alters the genetics of plants/animals, life forms by exciting weaker bonds in DNA and elsewhere, causing them to break or alter, THC glands don't mitigate that . . .

 

[Javadog]

That's never been proven though, and honestly it doesn't really add up if you think about it. If you think about it, there are over 200,000 known species of plants, probably more by most scientific estimates, yet no other species has such a UV protection mechanism. And how does resin protect the plant from UV light? I'd argue that it doesn't . . . UV light alters the genetics of plants/animals, life forms by exciting weaker bonds in DNA and elsewhere, causing them to break or alter, THC glands don't mitigate that . . .

LOL, well I was just considering the fact that bud can indeed look "shiny"
because of the resin glands.

It does suggest reflectance.

Take care,

JD

 

[Talonted]

I don't agree that stress causes an increase in resin production, and I've never seen that occur in my experience.

ok well here's how to look. Every plant produces scent, and scent is produced either to disguise or to attract. FACTs found on your own will show you that plants have been communicating with their siblings and nearby species the whole time and if one plant is in trouble it can tell everyone else around that there are bugs or other threats to its survival. This helps the herd prepare for what is to come. "Its a similar process to the human immune system" as their attacking the threat before it becomes a threat and they attack it, not physically. Internally or "Anatomically based". This is commonly called the Defense mechanism when the plant readys itself prior and during an attact

Marc Emery, bubble man and Vandermeer of CC, seem to agree with me here with a quote straight plagiarized from Marc Emery's website

Evolution of Trichomes In nature, only the strong survive, and it is hypothesized by biologists that trichomes evolved as a defense mechanism of the cannabis plant against a range of potential enemies (1). Trichomes, from the Greek meaning ‘growth of hair,’ act as an evolutionary shield, protecting the plant and its seeds from the dangers of its environment, allowing it to reproduce. These adhesive sprouts form a protective layer against offensive insects, preventing them from reaching the surface of the plant. The chemicals in the trichomes make cannabis less palatable to hungry animals and can inhibit the growth of some types of fungus. The resin also helps to insulate the plant from high wind and low humidity, and acts as a natural ‘sun-screen’ in protecting against UV-B light rays. But since trichomes contain euphoric properties attractive to humans, it may be man who has had the most influence on the plants’ development through many years of favoring strains that consistently produce more of these gooey resin heads.


and here's the link
http://www.cannabisculture.com/content/inside-trichome

 

[Talonted]

I will cover the rest of the rant after dinner etin.

Bioboy - I understand the discussion part but what i meant was as for optimizing a plant. You cant debate any further about what Etin questions and also happened to be your question if you think about it. Etin says " is the goal of an indoor grower to attempt to duplicate the conditions found in nature, or to innovate and improve upon them?". Well if you want to optimize yeild growth smell taste and overall look you are only bound to what the DNA will allow you to do and the DNA is written in stone "this is what they get, this is what they are designed for" if you belive innovation is further needed you are talking about GMO or un-natural genetic modification which i do not condone.

 

[Talonted]

Interesting post, but I have to admit that there was something logical about the theory.

That the increased UV light stimulates the plant to protect itself, and it is these glands
that do this. (right down to explaining why cannabis is so easily spotted from the air)

I will just keep my eyes open.

Thanks,

JD

Here me and you get brownie points because part of the write up i posted from Marc's website backs my jibber jabber to a T.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The resin also helps to insulate the plant from high wind and low humidity, and acts as a natural ‘sun-screen’ in protecting against UV-B light rays.[/FONT]

Why did 4 out of 4 people find Etin's post helpful? i dunno but what i do know is that there are alot of signs in the air these days, more so now than ever. Just got to know where to look

 

[Talonted]

The fact of the matter is that there is neither definitive empirical evidence illustrating why cannabis produces stalked capitate trichomes, nor any data proving a grower can, by changing lights or conditions, increase resin production. Personally, I've tried everything I can think of to alter resin production. At first I focused on increasing resin, but since it's hard to really quantify an increase on plants that are already exceptionally potent, I instead sought to significantly decrease resin production, so as to establish some (ANY) correlation between some change in conditions or environ and resin production.

I provided you a great write up in a link about trich and why the cannabis plant has it, Read it. Oh and you could have left out all that fancy terminology, you had me re-reading lines just to identify the point your were trying to get across!

I wonder if Marc is hiring lol

I went to great lengths to conduct these experiments, duplicate conditions, and log my results over several grows of multiple strains. I've done cold weather, warm weather, high/low humidity, high/reg CO2, different nutrients, etc. I have come to believe that while resin production can be altered VERY VERY VERY VERY slightly depending on conditions/medium/nutrients/plant health, that in the end much of this is outside of the grower's control and any observable change is so slight that it makes the effort put in to bring about said change better spent elsewhere. I did however discover ways to increase/alter the smell of a plant slightly.

Its not out the gardeners control, when you grow a plant you are in full control of what it does and when it does it period. unless you have Ruderalis introduced into the genetics but that only revokes your option to choose when it flowers. If i want my blueberrys to turn out like a true hashplant, i piss it off. If i want my Jordan's Lemon skunk to taste more pungent i give it what its used to (organics) untill week 7... AND THEN PISS IT OFF lol

I agree that higher energy light sources, “bluer” lights can give the impression of more trichome coverage, particularly in photography, but that in reality the overall trichome density remains unchanged. That said;

UV is intense coming off of the MH and the plants resin is increased to act as a sort of "sunscreen" in which case the overall trichome is increased therefore flowering with a more UV intense bulb will result in slower growth and more abundant in resin.

Cannabis growers, myself included, have unorthodox opinions and divergences thereof on how to grow better, bigger buds. Look anywhere else in agriculture or the botanical world. People and businesses all around the world seek to produce better crops, better flowers and herbs, and yet only in canna do growers seek to do so by altering the type of light they provide, as if there is some special bulb or spectrum that will unlock some secret within the genes of their strains and make it produce nothing but bud and resin, no leaves, no stalks, just buds, lol.

I dont believe that the various techniques utilized upon growers to be "unorthodox" as long as its within the perimeters of the DNA structure. A good example of unorthodox, when describing technique would be to go against the natural path

Only during the last 40 years have we brought our plants inside, and the real indoor leaps/bounds have occurred more recently than that.

In 1982 the first bulb that could support optimal plant growth was born, the Halide. This allowed the draft dodgers to move their crops indoors as the war on drugs was receiving more funding than ever when the war in vietnam ended. Moving indoors allowed us to further study as breeding could be more controlled and flower seasons hastened with the control of daylight hours.
H. Anslinger put a stop to all cannabis research due to his relationship with dupont, which has now spread globally. So dont go running around saying there is no proof about this and that, you're right that you wont find any proof but guess what. The proof is in the pudding

Talon

 

[Rbz007]

Been veging under spread spectrum hps and thinking of going to mh for remainder of veg. Will this shock the plant. If not would the results be noticeable. Gaining few extra hours a dayfor my outdoor to stop flowering due to shortening of daylight

 

[whazzup]

There is more than enough scientific data on for example the increase in flavonoids and terpenes in several crops under UV light. Increases up to 400% have been registered in scientific experiments in for example basil, though it is strain dependent how much it will influence them. Now we all know how terpenes influence the experience.

I believe it is also proven that the trichone is the only part of the plant that actually absorbs UVB. There are many plants that have trichomes, tomatoes being a good example. In a good tomato soup some cooks use the stalks for extra flavor. If you have ever been in a tomato greenhouse you will recognize the smell.

As for red and blue colors in your stems and sometimes even in the trichomes: read about anthocyanins

here is an interesting read.