Adjusting PH for foliar feeding with citiric acid

[OrganicOzarks]

I have read about using citric acid to adjust the ph for foliar, and have applied this reading to my weekly foliar schedule. However I have not read of an actual PH number that I should strive to get my foliar liquid to. Is there one? If so does it vary between plant species? Any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

OrganicOzarks

I can't offer anything on the pH question or much else probably but irrespective of a pH goal I would probably review what materials I'm working with since Citric acid is a preservative. It may the bestest preservative in the world. Perhaps a person would be a complete asshole not to use it - I certainly don't want to be identified as a Citric acid hater or anything like that.

The question I would mull over is what effect, if any, does a preservative have on enzymes if that was the goal for the foliar spray in the first place. Next up would be the pesticide and fungicides in various plant materials you might use like Lavender - what effect, again if any, would Citric acid have on the compounds.

Just a couple of considerations perhaps...

CC

 

[OrganicOzarks]

OrganicOzarks

I can't offer anything on the pH question or much else probably but irrespective of a pH goal I would probably review what materials I'm working with since Citric acid is a preservative. It may the bestest preservative in the world. Perhaps a person would be a complete asshole not to use it - I certainly don't want to be identified as a Citric acid hater or anything like that.

The question I would mull over is what effect, if any, does a preservative have on enzymes if that was the goal for the foliar spray in the first place. Next up would be the pesticide and fungicides in various plant materials you might use like Lavender - what effect, again if any, would Citric acid have on the compounds.

Just a couple of considerations perhaps...

CC

Those are very, very good points. I have thought about them as well. I would love to read more either way about the use of citric acid in foliar feeding, and whether it will be a negative, or a positive. Especially if you use it weekly for the entire life of a plant.
If anyone has any more info I would appreciate it.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

OrganicOzarks

VerdantGreen is someone who knows more about using Citric acid than anyone I've seen posting here.

Well worth your time to shoot him a PM 'cause he's a straight shooter and he's got this one down.

CC

 

[SpicySativa]

OrganicOzarks - What are you planning to foliar feed with? I can't I imagine needing to LOWER the pH of any organic ingredients, as most of them tend to be pretty acidic in the first place.

Also, keep in mind that a HIGH pH on your leaf surfaces will help prevent infection from powdery mildew, botrytis, etc... From a disease prevention perspective, you either want the leaf surface to be too acidic or too basic for spores to germinate effectively. As far as foliar feeding, I don't know what pH would be ideal. The only things I ever spray on my plants are AACT (NO pH adjustment!) and potassium bicarbonate (PM prevention and treatment). The potassium bicarbonate pH comes out over 8, and doesn't get adjusted either.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I have read about using citric acid to adjust the ph for foliar, and have applied this reading to my weekly foliar schedule. However I have not read of an actual PH number that I should strive to get my foliar liquid to. Is there one? If so does it vary between plant species? Any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

OO, the only instances where I have concerned myself with pH of anything applied via foliar are where there are specific instructions for pH adjustment (tank mixes). Offhand I can't recall which product requires pHing, I think it's Oxidate.

Otherwise, I simply work with the cleanest water I can (I save rainwater and pump it into trash cans I keep in the basement, covered), use an appropriate sticker/spreader/adjuvant, and go from there. Since I often have a lot of of whatever it is mixed, if it's a foliar feed, everything gets it, till the tank is emptied. I have seen better responses in some plants, no bad responses though, just some that don't appear to respond.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I am doing a tea that is composed of plant inputs that is brewed in my tea brewer for 36-48 hours. No compost, no worm castings. I have been using the citric to help lower the ph to better help the plant to "intake" the foliar spray. I had read(it was here I believe) that the citric acid will dilate the stomata so that the foliar is more readily absorbed. Now I have posted this thread, and the whole thing seems to be questioned. Does anyone have any documentation on this either way? I have not found any papers that would give any of us "higher ground" on the subject. Pun intended.

Clackamas you of all people I am sure can shoot out a link, or 1,000 on this subject. You are the Library of Congress on growing plants. Got any more info that would further confuse me into making a decision one way or the other?

 

[SeaMaiden]

When in doubt, I like to start with Google Scholar.

pH plant nutrient uptake foliar

foliar ph plant nutrient uptake

I think the answer may be found in the second set of hits.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

OrganicOzarks

Let's try it using logic...

What is the reason on would use a preservative in a biologically active solution?

 

[OrganicOzarks]

OrganicOzarks

Let's try it using logic...

What is the reason on would use a preservative in a biologically active solution?

So it won't rot, and blow up the bottle. I get your point. I am wondering how me using citric acid once per week in a solution that i am not using for biology would effect the compost tea i spray once per week that I am using for biological activity? Also would applying this solution once per week put the biology on the plant surface in a stasis(preserved)?

Is there any CLEAR science on this, or is this going to be a "which side of the fence" kind of thing?

At face value I would think that the citric acid would put the biology on the leaf surface in a stasis, but for how long if any?

 

[VerdantGreen]

i dont do foliar feeding, but have used citric extensively to lower the pH of my hard water for watering plants.

Whilst it is a preservative, citric acid is also a substance that plant roots naturally exude... so personally i doubt if it would have a detrimental effect on biology at the very low concentrations at which one would be using it it adjust pH for watering or foliar. i had to use a fair bit of it to lower the pH of my pH 9 water and it didnt seem to have any detrimental effect on my organic soil - and i seldom feed my plants over and above what is already in the soil - which would need microbes to break it down.
so i can be fairly confident that it doesnt effect soil biology at least....

VG

 

[Granger2]

Yeah, what Verdant said. Unless you're dropping the pH really low, I don't think it will harm your micro buddies. Good luck. -granger

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Except in the case of enzymes and Secondary Metabolites we're not talking about microbes. We talking about arresting the dynamic activity in an enzyme - why would anyone want to 'preserve' protein (amino acids) and/or stop that activity?

Same thing with Secondary Metabolites that are used as bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides - very simple chains - Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen - what benefit would you get from preserving these plant compounds?

In this context it has absolutely nothing to do with bacteria, nematodes, fungi, etc.

CC

 

[FatherEarth]

from my notes...

from my notes...

I know hes not making a compost tea but the PH info is relevant

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2011/12/8-essentials-for-microbe-brewing/

The Eighth Essential

We’ve discussed the seven essentials for successful microbe brewing but there is an additional requirement that is at least as important. This eighth essential relates to your capacity to control the microbe brewing process to achieve a desired species mix. Herein lies a major problem experienced by most people who have embraced bug brewing. It is really difficult to achieve fungal domination when brewing microorganisms. This is a constant frustration because it is beneficial fungi that are the creatures most lacking in most soils, when a soil life count is conducted. Bacteria subdivide at a much more rapid rate than fungi, so, in a brewing situation, it is inevitable that the bacteria take command and unfortunately this creates undesirable conditions for fungal proliferation. Bacteria release alkaline exudates but fungi prefer acidic conditions so this simple biochemical ploy magnifies the bacterial dominance. You can start a compost tea with a compost, rich in visible fungi, but the bacteria that are still present exert their dominance within hours. One trick that helps slow down the bacteria is to add an acid material to the brewing tank. The pH of the brewing solution must be maintained below 5 throughout the process to encourage fungal domination. Vinegar or citric acid are popular choices but unfortunately it is not as simple as it sounds. The bacteria don’t give up without a fight. They continue to release their alkaline exudates knowing that if they can spike pH above 5 then they can resume control. The pH of the brew solution must be monitored throughout the 24 hour brewing process and more acid material is often required. This does not bode well for those who like their sleep!

Mr. Hill's Foliar

growing big plants thread
TOM HILL
My favorite thing to spray for outdoor crops is "brix mix" by peaceful valley farm supply (fisher15's link - groworganic.com) at 1/2 recommended dose every two weeks. I add 1 tbs per gallon of molasses to this (attracts beneficials), and 1/2 tsp per gal of ascorbic acid (vit C). I adjust this spray to 5.8 pH +/-, and bring it to 125-150 ORP via h2o2. Every two weeks, that's my foliar spray, until about midway through what we call the August stretch (stop before any buds stack). Then, as if my soil mix didn't contain enough calcium hehe, I spray once a month a product called calcium25, and stop using this at the same time as the brix mix. This approach seems to have all but stopped attack from fungus, keeps bugs down, and rarely have I had to resort to harsher measures.

C- Rays Foliar

C Rays Foliar

my latest foliar feeding for some vegging plants consisted of:

gsr calcium growing (highly available Ca)
lithovit (Ca, Si, traces and CO2)
new zealand whey concentrate (aminos)
wholesome sweeteners brand organic molasses (potassium, and sugar to bond with with gsr calcium)
bio-wash (natural surfactant, brix promoter)
citric acid powder (1/2 as much as gsr calcium to balance pH)
earth tonic (from progress earth, sea minerals, bd preps)
@ 1600 ppm / in distilled water / every 10-14 days
the ppm is on the high side but plants seemed to like it just fine, though I might try a lower concentration next time just out of curiosity
I'd probably add some liquid kelp as well, but don't have any atm

 

[MrSterling]

Nothing here to convince me to introduce citric acid, except maybe for hard water, but excellent back and forth.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I know hes not making a compost tea but the PH info is relevant

Mr. Hill's Foliar

C- Rays Foliar

Do you know of any documentation that discusses using citric acid(or the like) in relation to microbes? I spray compost tea on Fridays, and I spray this plant tea on Monday. I would like to get a clearer picture to see if the citric acid in Mondays plant tea is/would have a negative impact on the microbes/fungi that I am applying on Friday? I have read similar posts as to which you have cited, and that is what made me make the switch. It does seem that when we foliar feed we are assuming that the stomata are open and ready for business. However this is counter intuitive. That is why to myself it does seem like the use of citric acid to dilate the stomata would be beneficial.

From my experience with using it I can say that I have seen a difference in the plants. I have not seen any negative impacts at all. None of this is scientific though, and it is all anecdotal. I would really like to see some scientific papers/studies stating either way how the citric will effect the microbes/plants. I have yet to find any.

I am wondering if I make a compost tea, and slowly adjust the ph of it until everything goes into a stasis, could I then see a clear line of how much citric it is going to take to do damage? I suppose what I can do is make a compost tea, also make a plant tea with citric, and then take a drop of the compost tea, put it on a slide, then drop a drop of the plant tea on the slide as well, and then see if the microbes go into stasis. If I see nothing then I could take equal parts of each in a vial, and then slowly raise the citric containing tea enough to where I see a dramatic change. Then at least we could see what the microbes are doing.

Now this would only apply to the right now, and would not factor in the 4 days that exists between me spraying the two teas. However I do think it would give a general idea of what would be going on.

Sounds like we have a science experiment to do.

 

[FatherEarth]

Everything has a threshold. I think if you get the sample out of PH range things will most likely stop or slow down dramatically. As for paper or documentation of the use of citric or ascorbic acid in foliar feeding I have found none myself. I purchased 1lb of food grade ascorbic acid once I got it I was like what did I buy this for again? Searched through all my notes and Toms mention of it is all I found. I have read good things about it but have yet to find any science behind it.. Maybe Tom or C-Ray can answer this one?

I have read similar posts as to which you have cited, and that is what made me make the switch.

more specifically....?

"Im getting out my waders, Im going fishing and Im going to find something... somewhere.."

 

[c-ray]

in my veg foliar I add the citric acid first to distilled water and let it do it's thing then add the gsr calcium and let it do it's thing, which after a little reaction brings the water back where it started pH wise, between 6.5-7.0.. then I add sugars to the foliar and finally the rest of the ingredients, order is important.. highly doubtful it is a preservative at that pH but I could easily check how it interacts with biology under a microscope, if I was actually concerned.. I am actually not concerned because this particular foliar is doing it's job pushing the plant in the direction of vegetative growth and increasing the brix.. if I was concerned about biology I would add biological products to the mix at the end, after pH has been neutralized..

just curious why are you spraying compost onto your plants, specifically for what reason(s)?

any idea why your tea pH is so high?

from: http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/learn/citric-acid.php

Furthermore, since citric acid is present in almost every life form, it is consequently easily metabolized and eliminated from the body.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I use compost tea for for it's protective qualities, and also for a bit of growth quality as I put kelp, alfalfa, and a bit of guano in my compost teas.

As far as my ph being "to high" that goes back to the original question. What is the proper ph for a foliar feed to ensure that it enters the plant optimally? Also is the plant going to be in a state where the foliar enters into the plant as much as possible? that is really what I am trying to figure out. What ph, if any, is the optimal point for the plant to be available to take in the nutrients, and the nutrients be available to enter the plant? I know us organic guys don't ph shit, but I am thinking this one does indeed have a number that could be nailed down.

 

[c-ray]

from my notes

pH 5.8-7.2

the lower end of that range will tend to promote flowering while the upper will tend to promote veg