Large hydro investment leaving me clueless!?

[Midmichkush]

The first time i tried my newly built awesome dwc closet set up after the phemonimal yield in a cheap tupperware I attempted it with low ppms about 700 or 1.0 ec and got the horrible results i am speaking of an d now seeing duplicated. Right now in the ebb and flow I have lowered it to an EC of 1.5 or 1300 ppms i am using a hanna 8913 meter and it has a wierd conversion of 739 whenever i do the math, I have two of these meters they both do the same thing. Anywho i think they can handle a wide range of ppms and yield great though there is an optimal number. I think the less you flood and drain the lower you must go. When i used to water this same strain in pro mix every other day in peak flower they were exploding with 1800-2000ppm on this meter for years! I am down to 1300 ppm now in the ebb and flow watering once a day i dare not go lower right now.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

The first time i tried my newly built awesome dwc closet set up after the phemonimal yield in a cheap tupperware I attempted it with low ppms about 700 or 1.0 ec and got the horrible results i am speaking of

Listen to DHF... You can be sure they've picked up the experience to deal with your situation.

The key is the swing in pH when you're running 'just enough' nutes for the plant. What size is your res? How fast did the pH swing happen during that run? Too large of a res will make the swing too slow and you'll get deficiencies.

Stay Safe!

 

[Midmichkush]

ok well iv taken what you guys have said to heart here and have lowered my ppms again and i am attempting a lower ph. Yesterday i devised an experiment on my little dwc closet experiment based on my theory of when the plant converts into flower mode it needs the roots to be fully exposed to the air throughout the day.

I took a normal open valve and set it up inline in my undercurrent system and attached a timer to close the valve long enough to flood the pots every hour while the lights are on and every 4 while the lights are off, after the it floods the pot it opens back up exposing majority of the dwc roots back to the air. So now its a sort of flood and drain dwc. They are day 25 into flower and thus far have developed just as dissapointing as the last attempt with this plant in this closet. I have lowered the ppms to 1.3ec lucas formula plus bloom booster, dropped the ph to 5.4. However i attempted these ph and ppms in the prior grow with also dismal results. If this air root theory is correct i expect to see some major bud development start in the next few days finally. pics attached of now for reference.


oh and my ebb and flow is currently at a ph of 5.9 and ppm of 1300ppm 1.83ec It is flooding 6 times a day right now right before the lights come on 5:45-6:00 flood drain flood drain flood drain simultaniously to flush the dried out salts from the day prior. They look very happy now and are at day 13 they have already stretched alot from the previous methods i have attempted so its hard to tell results from this new method as i have only been trying both these new techniques for about a day.

 

[DHF]

If your meter`s on a .7 conversion Bro , then 1300 ppm`s is in actuality only 910 ppm`s thereabouts on the .5 conversion so things might not be as bad as we thought originally....but.....

As I`ve stated on many occasions more indica dominant hybrids can take more juice without showin signs of toxicity/overfeeding , but that don`t mean it`s doin anything for the plants , it only means they`ll need more leaching/dwindling of ppm`s or even flushing to allow the plants to cannibalize themselves of any stored nitrogen left in the fans before end of cycle......so again.....

Less is more across the board guaranteed....Heath Robinson ran the multiflow bucket setups for many yrs and never ran over 1.2 ec/600 ppm`s or 840 on the .7 conversion as your meter has with consistent dialed results......

I ran my 5 gal ebb and flow buckets up to 750 ppm`s with no problems for over 5 yrs as well ......anyways.....Hope things level out and get back to normal for yas.....

Peace....DHF............

 

[Midmichkush]

well my question for you then is if this 850ppm the same used during veg? Because when i went down to the 700 mark on the ebb and flow or dwc i was getting pretty bad deficiencies.

 

[DHF]

In veg as well as till end of cycle yas need ta adjust your ppm`s to 840 and no more than 1050 on your .7 conversion meter...but....

Depending on additives you use as well allowing your nutrient solution to buffer by waiting long enough for ph to stabilize before adding to the rez or containers......

I ran Silicablast for stemwall strength and a P boost , and SM-90 for rootzone protection , and although they raised ppm`s a small amount they did raise ph as well and hadta be adjusted back with ph down before buffering and addin to rez.......that said......

GH 3 part`s designed as a 3-2-1 mix for veg through end of stretch , and 1-2-3 till end of cycle , but I always cut that in half for lower ppm`s across the board......and.....

By end of stretch the grow had been all but done away with , and by late flower the micro had been all but adjusted out with more bloom formula, but......

Always keeping the ppm mixture constant at my intended 750 ppm target ftw.....now.......In DWC yas gotta keep the solution levels up to the bottoms of the upper containers so as to close that airgap and not develop "cord roots" that`re counterproductive to plant growth and nutrient uptake just to getchas back on track from your experiments.....and.....

I fed 3 times a day during lights on only with my 5 gal ebb and flow buckets but there was more medium to hold onto juice compared to yours at half that size , but folks usually only feed 4 times daily with the smaller buckets , so your 6 times feed might be a bit excessive but if the plants aren`t showing signs of overwatering or droopiness then I guess youre ok...anyways.....

Good luck and.....

Hope that helps.....DHF....

 

[Midmichkush]

My last post may have read confusing, in my large ebb and flow i am flooding and draining only 1 time during 24 hours, however with massive sump pumps i use for the flood and drain i set it to 15 minutes before my lights come on 5:45-6:00 during which that 15 minutes it will cycle flood and drain 6 times consequetively to really flush the rocks of salt since it only happens once a day. Im doing this in the quest to duplicate root conditions similar to that of what this strain seemed to enjoy so much in the promix.

While im all on board with you guys for ppms and ph being very important for fine tuning, i still feel the key to my problem is literally just suffocation of the roots.

My theory is this and this seems to be totally strain dependant the sensativity to this. The amount of dissolved oxygen in the water may be in sufficient amounts for the plant to properly veg but once in flower the demands of the changing plant became so great for root respiration that my strain literally suffocates and gives up in the water stretching and yielding poorly the two months of flower.
The ebb and flow is doing slightly better because the roots were getting more air time but my flooding was still to frequent. Once i day will hopefully give the roots the air they need to breathe without wet rocks against them constantly time will tell if the improvement happens.
Now with my closet dwc experiment as I described above it has now been 48 hours since i have been leaving 90% of the gaint root ball completly out of the water with the exception of a 6 minute flood and drain cycle every hour with the lights on and every 4 hours with the lights off. and i am already noticing a change in the roots to what im going to relate to what i have always seen the roots do in my years of promix use when the plant is sick and starts to recover and throw out useful roots again and resumes growing. I am going to disconnect the air stones in each bucket now leaving only bubbles in the central res as the air stones i believe are not necessary in there and are only negative flushing out to much humidity between the 1 hour floods. Essentially this will now be a trail of what ill call "media-less flood and drain" im not sure if this has been duplicated in the forums or not. I feel this will replicate the natural conditions of the roots in the soil that some strains are so dependant upon for proper maturation of being able to drink breathe drink breathe with the ability to repeat much more frequently without media pressed against the roots holding liquid against them, essentially giving the roots a balance of maximum water and nutrients and air time, keep in mind if they need more liquid between there 1 hour floods they can always drink from the bottom 10% of the roots in the water still. This system i think would be superior for anyone who can flood and drain very quickly to take full advantage of there systems potential if this works. If this works as i think it will then the only type of hydro superior to this method i would think would be a fogger system but this is without the hassle of high pressure clogging nozzels. This is all still theory ill keep anyone who is interested in this experiment posted after it turns out. attached is a picture of the fresh root growth on the discussed previous dwc root ball converted to medialess ebb and flow after 48 hours.

 

[DHF]

The reason ebb and flow buckets work so well is exactly what you`re tryin to explain that indeed I was confused about in your earlier posts......IOW.......

What you`re attempting to do is run "without" medium in the bottom container and only allowing a small percentage of the rootmass to stay submerged at all times , as to where the upper rootmass become essentially "air roots" , and the ones submerged constantly stay as "feeder" roots.......although.....

The upper roots will indeed suck juice during the flood and drain cycle , but will depend solely on the bottom feeder roots to supply the plant everything they need during the lights on cycle after the air roots have dried out....That sound about right ?.....

Medialess ebb and flow will need upper support for the plants with no roots bein anchored in any sort of medium or it will stunt upper growth regardless of how well yas build the rootmass , unlike RDWC that recirculates 24/7 and once dialed builds a bigger rootmass to help hold the plants up above......

Anyways.....Good luck with your experiment.....Keep us updated....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[Midmichkush]

you are correct on the summary of what im doing a flood and drain on a giant ball of roots no media allowing me to flood and drain more often. There is ofcoarse a small amount of media the plant is anchored in the hydroton in the small net pot however the roots within the net pot are truely cord roots and 99% of the plants roots are just in a big tangled ball suspended in the bucket.

But yes my theory is majority of those roots dont even need to be feeder roots anymore and there only purpose could be for respiration. The hourly floods will replentish the air in the bucket and give the bottom 10% in the water constantly fresh oxygenated nut solution to feed upon for the hour in a a true bucket set up if this was converted to the larger ebb and flow, also allowing a this hourly flood and drain may allow warmer room temps as my res is in a cold area keeping the water 65* being able to chill my roots hourly with 65* water in a 77* room may allow for cooler leaf temp. will keep ya posted

 

[gmanwho]

you had stated your ppms where rising.

(if u have no auto water top off). the plants where drinking water an leaving behind nutes. 1700 to high of ppm. There could be some water evaporating off during the flood drain cycles, adding to the increase of ppm, as the water evaporates it will leave behind the nutes. '

to low rh can increase water evaporation as well.

what type of lighting an hoods? are these plants bigger then your promix runs? just wondering if lighting is sufficient as it has not been mentioned your lighting, (i dont think).

I would keep those airstones going. could aid in upper roots not completely drying out between cycles. As the airstone mists it would also create a higher humidity environment within the bucket. The time it takes the roots to dry would def be variable through out the life cycle. i wouldn't wait to long in between floods. 2-3 hrs tops i would think.

another thing i dont think you mentioned was how long your keeping your rez? rez change out times can an will vary. life stage of plant an the rez size change these variables.

the Smaller the rez the quicker the change outs. 45 gal rez during day 20 -45 of flower may require change out every 5 days. that same rez during early veg to mid veg can go 10+ days. One thing to watch is if you see explosive growth after rez changeouts, u waited to long to change it. now getting the hydro to produce quick an consistent growth takes time to learn

b-safe

 

[gmanwho]

When i used to water this same strain in pro mix every other day in peak flower they were exploding with 1800-2000ppm on this meter for years! I am down to 1300 ppm now in the ebb and flow watering once a day i dare not go lower right now.

just a point worthy of mentioning , make sure you calibrate that meter every month, even if its just a checkup. quick thought, even thou you might be doing it, it can get overlooked. b-safe

 

[ZinksInk]

Lower PPM, 1300-1500 PPM is high in my opinion... Sounds like plants are drinking more water than they are food.

 

[ZinksInk]

Ive also had better results for ebb n flow with lower ph from 5.5-5.8 ish during flower.... Over 6 and i start to get nutes locking out. I also have to amend with Cal and Mg a few weeks into flower, despite running virtually the whole House and Garden line.

At the moment i've been running some coco plants side by side. I didn't catch the Cal and Mg in time for the hydro system and it stunted my growth some. The plants in coco look fine and have been good all the way though. (they are also twice as my plants in the hydro system)

 

[Midmichkush]

hey i calirbrate both my meters frequently and i am using all 1000w watt bulbs in all the set ups. I have had sucsessful runs with this strain in all my set ups with pro mix. These plants are of similar size to the promix ones.

Right now im at 1300ppm on my ebb and flow and 950 in the dwc root flood and drain experiment. Im monitering over the next few days and may keep going down.

 

[Midmichkush]

ohh and i should mention with that gigantic root ball in there the air stones really offer not spraying on the roots what so ever and only dry out the roots to quickly which is why i decided to remove them from this trail

 

[Midmichkush]

I should also mention with this strain i never get any lock out or cal mag deficiencies when i have tried it in hydro. Hell it looks really healthy throughout all off flower. Just continues to stretch slowly and doesnt produce explosive flower growth ever.

 

[Midmichkush]

getting away from my little experiment for a second and back to the big grow room with the ebb and flow watering 1 a day and the smaller attached room with the 6 dwc still operating as a typical dwc. Well the rooms are attached as you know so same temp co2 etc and they are officially on day 14 of flower check out the developmental difference between the two.

 

[Kcar]

Is your PH meter on .5 or .7? 2ec on .5=1000ppm , 2ec on .7=1400ppm

 

[Midmichkush]

.7 for now on ill just speak in EC to avoid confusion

 

[Midmichkush]

http://www.floppysprinkler.com/inde...id=92:root-development&catid=27&Itemid=100101

Found this article interesting to what I'm thinking the problem is with the dwc