help me explain the chemical fert vs organics debate better

[habeeb]

there's nothing to explain.. explaining yourself why you like something is one of the worst things you could do.. I could tell you the goods and bad's of both, but that is not necessary right now.

pick what your drawn to, it's that simple.

 

[Microbeman]

Yea to Darkman, the truthsayer. When we build a garden it is built from local materials and built to come to life, producing for the next 20 years or so. I prefer the term natural gardening because of the bad scene mentioned around commercializing organics.

Now, the thing wrong with using chemical and some organic fertilizers is that it bypasses the natural order living in the soil, causing that natural order to become altered or to die out. So the effect is to stifle life and allow pathogens to fill the gap.

Additional to this [MM hyopothetically & somewhat supported by literature] chemical fertilizers are internalized to create plant tissue, remaining as a residue and altering plant tissue away from the norm = cancer?

 

[Scrappy4]

Smoking chemically grown herb is like having sex, while smoking organically grown herb is like having sex with a partner. sex is sex, right?

It doesn't take a genius to see how cancer rates have went up as chemically grown food has increased. Maybe you won't see (yet) clear smoking gun evidence, but everyone can see how we do things differently now, from back then when folks lived on farms and used manures and winter crops for plant food, rotated crops and whatnot.

To me organics just means growing naturally maybe with limited human intervention, but not using chemically rendered products to do what microbes have evolved to do naturally and with what the area provides......scrappy

 

[al-k-mist]

wow, they cant recycle the soil or put it in their garden?
just got a pallet of peat, and 10 yds of pumice delivered from less than 15 miles away. fuck perlite. called about local compost, prob get a dozen yards...
we are very down with local, and organic(og from a non-chem perspective, not a chemistry perspective, although all life has carbon, and all organic has carbon, so its organic from both, right?)
Thanks on the tips
And c-ray, that was a tip I needed, a refractometer, i think i saw weird say in thread that high brix = good plant health, resistance, now nugget density, oh boy! (hey, mama, if youre reading this...well, we can use it on the grapes too...) awesome.
out of curiosity, the dude at the hydrostore where i bought a pump..(local, remember?) implied i was silly, thinking 4 airstones from an eco1 pump(the kind with fins on it) into 1 five gal aact bucket was overkill. but its not, right?
you people are awesome

 

[al-k-mist]

oh, what about organic fish bone meal?
just put a half dozen dungeness crab shells, crushed, into the compost pile.

 

[Neo 420]

out of curiosity, the dude at the hydrostore where i bought a pump..(local, remember?) implied i was silly, thinking 4 airstones from an eco1 pump(the kind with fins on it) into 1 five gal aact bucket was overkill. but its not, right?
you people are awesome

I would say tmight not be enough. Depends on the actual pressure/bubble size/ dispersion.
I use the eco5 for my 5 gallons brew(Air lift style) to ensure high DO levels.

 

[MileHighGuy]

From microbeorganics.com

A Word About Diaphragm Air Pumps;
If you are going to buy a pump to run your aerated CT brewer, I can recommend the Eco Plus Commercial 5 (4 CFM max.) for up to 50 gallons and the Eco Plus Commercial 1 (1.75 CFM max.) for up to 10 gallons...

I can also recommend Hailea 9730 pumps (2 CFM max.) These are solid, long lasting pumps and I know other commercial brewers use them for 50 gallons but I just can’t recommend them for more than 30 gallons. If you use one for a 5 gallon unit it will last virtually forever. All of these pumps come with a little threaded brass fitting for screwing into the air output. DO NOT USE THESE! Put them in your parts drawer. These constrict the air and reduce your CFM by at least 20%. Rather, find tubing which slides over the nipple into which the threads are tapped. In the case of the Eco Plus 5 and the Hailea, 5/8ths inside diameter works. Slide the air tubing over and secure with a gear clamp. The Eco Plus has a very short nipple so I score the metal with a couple of swipes with a hacksaw to create barbs for the tubing to grip. You can find tubing at a building supply like Home Depot or Rona in Canada. I use the braided reinforced stuff which does not kink. Always try to keep your pump at or above the surface of the water so it does not siphon back if the power fails.

 

[Scrappy4]

Al-k-mist, good point on recycling soil. (i'd rep you but i get messages that my reps have been used up)

To carry this further indoor chemical growers typically do not reuse soil due to salt build ups killing micro life. The soil becomes crusted with salts and the texture becomes stiff and hard. Water runs off this soil rather than being absorbed.

Organic soil retains its texture, it's smell, worms and smaller life thrive in it, and the soil becomes perhaps even more efficient cycling nutrients.

What do you think happens to the end user, the habitual user like you and I, if the soil can not continue to make life thrive? scrappy

 

[S4703W]

Awhile back some older dude told me(as reasoning for organics)would you spray that shit in your mouth(chemical pestisides)? Then why on earth would you spray it on your food(or in this case herb). On the flipside neem and mint are both used internally to treat stuff wrong with people as well as plants. Dunno if your bud even uses pesticides or w/e but if so get him to try neem oil with pro-tect or some pot sil product. Works better than all the other junk and that sheen it puts on the leaves is pretty enticing. If it gets the organic foot in the door so to speak, the rest usually follows and if not at least his "patients" won't be suckin in as much junk.

As for the hardness of the buds i think thats kinda genetics dependant. i've had the densest buds i've ever tried with organics fwiw. Must be an odd market this guy caters to that judges weed solely by how hard you can squeeze it(roidin muscle types maybe?)

 

[Weird]

a healthy and harmonious relationship between mankind and marijuana has existed NATURALLY for millenniums and on this basis we know it be be completely benign

now if you look at modern commercially grown tobacco much of the foundation of its cancerous potential is due to agricultural practice

here are a list of active carcinogens found in cigarettes

you tell me which are naturally occurring and which are not and then look at the chemical regime used in their farming practices and tell me if you see any similarity in any other agricultural markets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cigarette_smoke_carcinogens

 

[Weird]

furthermore

when you feed ions YOU control uptake and it can easily go beyond natural and even required limits for maximum plant growth

add the sensationalized fervor of green rush and the potential for human greed its a dangerous combination especially since you can get a plant to express its full potential either way

 

[Weird]

also it is not the source of ions (produced naturally in the soil versus chemically produced) that dictates variables of plant growth such as speed and yield

its all the other variables from substrate composition and relative to water and oxygen ratio, water/air quality, light distribution and intensity, and all the numerous other environmental variables in our control

 

[Neo 420]

furthermore

when you feed ironically YOU control uptake and it can easily go beyond natural and even required limits for maximum plant growth

add the sensationalized fervor of green rush and the potential for human greed its a dangerous combination especially since you can get a plant to express its full potential either way

Did you mean ionically ?

 

[Weird]

Did you mean ionically ?

yes tyvm

 

[c-ray]

I like this explanation:

from http://www.yladlivingsoils.com.au/_...utrition_and_why_Humus_Provides_the_Solution/

The Six Challenges of Dependence on Soluble Fertilisers to provide Plant Nutrition and why Humus Provides the Solution

Unfortunately almost all growers and Ag advisors around the world have a flawed view of plant feeding. YLAD Living Soils have researched over many years how plants take up nutrients and water and understand how to grow a healthier plant more resistant to fungal attack, frosting, droughts, disease and pests.

Worldwide research reveals that:

• When all plant nutrients are soluble and available within soil water, which is almost every ‘bought’ fertiliser, the plant takes in nutrients through its water roots. This happens 24 hours a day whether the sun is shining or not and whether the plant is making new substances or not.
  The natural reaction to this ‘free’ nutrient by the plant is to try and dilute it down to a normal level by taking in yet more water… hang on now, it gets even more nutrients so it takes in more water, so on and so on. The cell structure becomes bigger and bigger like a balloon until it can expand no more.
  The roots of these particular plants will be very bare and white with very few microbes feeding off the plant exudates. I call these types of roots ‘naked’. When a plant has ‘naked’ roots it has no means of ‘feeding’ itself and must rely on you to provide ‘food’. This is a very costly exercise as the cost of fossil fuels increase so does the cost of man-made fertilisers.
• What we have now is one big watery plant lacking essential nutrients to build plant sugars. This plant actually does not transpire as freely as our naturally fed plants as it wants to hang onto its water to keep diluting the nutrient salts.
• New research from Illinois University has been able to measure the amount of a particular nutrient taken up by the plant in the soil water and there is very little surprise to know that nitrogen is taken up 2.7 times more than calcium or phosphorus. It is this oversupply of nitrogen that adds more water to this already ‘big watery plant’.
• Products such as bio-solids and raw manures also act as a soluble nitrogen source producing plants that are watery with incomplete protein chains more susceptible to frosting. When this occurs we have lower quality protein, less and less developed flavors and a big watery bitter plant being force fed!
• However the worst is yet to come, this big watery plant is attractive to fungal growth. In nature, insects and pests are there to ‘remove’ the unhealthy problems from the system, they are the cleanup crew, however in this system they are not there to ‘mop’ up the pests or disease.
• Soluble fertiliser application begins the destruction of soil biodiversity by diminishing the role of nitrogen-fixing bacteria and amplifying the role of everything that feeds on nitrogen. These feeders then speed up the decomposition of organic matter and humus. As organic matter decreases, the physical structure of soil changes. With less pore space and less of their sponge-like qualities, soils are less efficient at storing water and air. Water leaches through soils, draining away nutrients that no longer have an effective substrate on which to cling. With less available oxygen the growth of soil microbiology slows, and the intricate ecosystem of biological exchanges breaks down.
• With the nutrient level of our plants and food dropping it is now time to address how we can reduce or ‘hang on to’ soil nutrients and allow the plant to take up its ‘food’ in the balanced ratios, producing more nutrient dense food and healthier crops.

Firstly, beneficial bacteria help to retain and provide water through multiple mechanisms. The cellular content of a prokaryotic bacterial cells is anywhere from 60-80% water. That means the majority of what is being added to soil when inoculating with beneficial bacteria is water. Also, the bacterial biomass provides a giant buffering and retention system for the water that becomes available when needed. When water is available, the bacteria divide and incorporate it into their cell bodies. When conditions become dry, the bacteria can re-release this water this water to make it available to the plant.

Secondly, bacteria store and retain water in biofilms. Beneficial biofilms are polysaccharides (sugar) secreted by beneficial bacteria that they use to retain nutrients and water. Polysaccharides can bind many times their weight in water. This is water retained in the soil that would otherwise wash through or evaporate. The water is concentrated in the rhizosphere around the root zones, where the microbes are concentrated. The plants do not create this emergency water reserve, they provide the roots and the microorganisms store the water.

Thirdly, beneficial microbes produce water as a by-product of their normal functions for such metabolic activities such as bacterial photosynthesis and products of cycling nitrogen.

When you breathe onto a mirror you will see the water that your body expels as a by-product of its metabolism. Having billions of bacteria constantly ‘breathing’ in the soil is analogous to this process, producing water in the soil.

Fourthly, the decomposition of organic matter releases water, and this process is driven by microbes in the soil

These findings and conclusions of the researchers can be tested by comparing roots in soils inoculated with beneficial bacteria to roots in a sterile soil.

What is the Solution?

Since populations of free-living soil microorganisms are strongly carbon limited Wardle(1992) rhizosphere carbon input from plant roots via rhizodeposition is the driving force for the well-documented ‘rhizosphere effect’, which stimulates microbial growth and activity in close proximity to plant roots (Hiltner 1904, Semenov et al 1999).

A plant fed with colloidal Humus, which is a very special substance that holds the normally soluble plant nutrients from leaching or locking up, the correct ratio of minerals are taken up by the plant. We need an active rhizosphere (area surrounding the roots) with high numbers of beneficial microorganisms obtaining nutrients held in the humus via the feeder roots.

Given the chance in a natural situation a plant will only feed when the sun is telling it to do so and take up just enough ‘food’ to grow the plant. All nutrients are converted into plant material and high quality proteins, flavors, sugars and starches.

For over ten years YLAD Living Soils have proven the above research to be true and can assist you with biological and humus programs to grow a healthier plant delivering higher quality.

Root exudates can also have protective functions against pathogens from where it is released into the rhizosphere in significant amounts.

YLAD Humus Compost assists plant growth and microbial growth by the production of growth stimulating compounds encouraging root growth, making it easy for roots to travel through the soil and take up necessary nutrients, in the right balance at the right time. Roots are the digestive system of the tree and plant and a healthy root system determines the microbiology that lives around the roots, beneficial microbes will outcompete pathogens, meaning less disease issues.

YLAD Living Soils over their last 10 years in business have been promoting the essential balance of physical, chemical and microbiology with proven results, both independent and farmer trials. Soil microbiology ten years ago was rarely spoken about and no value placed on the huge role it plays in creating soil structure, nutrient cycling, plant health and disease suppression.

When a soil lacks microbiology and the ability to recycle and supply these nutrients to the plant, the plant then becomes very dependent on the farmer ‘feeding’ water-soluble N & P, which can lock-up, leach or evaporate. When this oversupply of N & P occurs the microbiology cannot perform their role of fixing nitrogen (for free), solubolising phosphorus and staving off disease organisms.

Nitrogen seems to be a nutrient that farmers rely on most, believing that only when they supply large amounts of soluble N will they obtain high yields and quality. Over the past 10 years this has proven incorrect showing that there are alternatives to achieving a similar or better results. These alternatives not only supply short term gains but contribute to long term benefits such as improved soil structure, organic carbon increases and meeting environmental parameters.

References

Douglas W Speed SR.- Florida - Soil Microorganisms and H2O – Microbes Create Emergency Water Reserve . What takes place in the Root Zone of a Plant
Petra Marshner – Nutrient Cycling in Terrestrial Eco-Systems
Rod Turner – The World’s Best Compost and Why

 

[Red Swan]

Too many rats

 

[al-k-mist]

Thanks everybody
only a couple people provided facts.
while i am organic as fuck, and have some hArdcore ideas, i was looking for facts i could cite, or a way to explain the facts.
an example, which is absolutely not related, or even factual, would be " chemical X would be fine, except that the precursor is sock rock, and its mined in a place where the birds have no socks because the factories took the rocks, thereby causing an ecological fuckstorm, because their toes get cold, they dont breed, and that means no food for the peat panda, who shits out peat moss.,"
I am not trying to be a dick, i KNOW about the organic lifestyle, and why its good, but why are the chems bad, specifically
hard nugs arent the issue, ive had hella hard nuggets. my point is there are additives people use who grow chemmy shit, that harden the flowers, make them dense and weigh more. my question is, what would be the organic equivilant?
or does it not exist?

 

[MileHighGuy]

Thanks everybody
only a couple people provided facts.
while i am organic as fuck, and have some hArdcore ideas, i was looking for facts i could cite, or a way to explain the facts.
an example, which is absolutely not related, or even factual, would be " chemical X would be fine, except that the precursor is sock rock, and its mined in a place where the birds have no socks because the factories took the rocks, thereby causing an ecological fuckstorm, because their toes get cold, they dont breed, and that means no food for the peat panda, who shits out peat moss.,"
I am not trying to be a dick, i KNOW about the organic lifestyle, and why its good, but why are the chems bad, specifically
hard nugs arent the issue, ive had hella hard nuggets. my point is there are additives people use who grow chemmy shit, that harden the flowers, make them dense and weigh more. my question is, what would be the organic equivilant?
or does it not exist?

What exact chemical product are you wanting an organic equivalent for?

Are you trying to convince your friend of the yield potential or are you trying to increase your personal yields?

Option 1: Trying to convince your buddy

Show him your superior shit and let him smoke it.

Option 2: Wanting to increase your own yields

We need to know what you are currently doing with your Organic as Fuck Grow to help.

 

[al-k-mist]

Okay, my mistake. I dont often speak with people so have problems being clear
organic as fuck..yes, my gardens are all organic, soil recipe ala CC, with neem/protekt and act or kelp foliars...but my lifestyle is organic as possible. we spend more on non gmo stuff, ordering in bulk from places like azure standard, 50 lb of sugar is less packaging than 10 five lb bags. we buy from the bulk bins and dont support fast foodz or walmart. we shop at bimart, we barter, our chickens are organic. my son is 100% organic, breastfed no gmo or formula in his life, even by proxy. we are starting big gardens and a greenhouse
the only REAL actual HELP i need, is in formulating a 16 yard soil mix, water only.
(this is for far more than cannabis. we may only do 12 plants this year, i was going to grow for 3 patients, but figured we will do fine with each having our limit.) I Got peat, and instead of having pumice delivered, i'm making sidewalls for the pickup, to extend the bed upwards, maybe haul 3 yards whenever im close by. that will save fossil fuels, and delivery fees, and i think 10% by picking it up.
I do need the help with that. im going to do the peat, which is 1 pallet, 30 bales of 3 cu ft. thats 3.3 yards, and expanded its almost double, like 6 yards. Im getting the pumice, 5 yards will be 150. five yards of vermicompost will be outrageously expensive this first time...we just moved here, and havent had time for the compost pile to do anything(just added dungeness crab shells, though). ammendments in mind are 440 lb of azomite, 440 lb of glacial rock dust, and 440 lb of basalt dust. 150 lb of crab meal, 150 lb neem seed meal(that is ,100# of down to earth, and 50# from neem recource, expensive!) 40# of gypsum, 20# alfalfa, and 100# of thorvin kelp(feed supplement). some endo-miccorizae at transplant, aacts w humic/fulvic acids...but I seem to be missing stuff, any advice is greatly appriciated
The ethical delima begins, in that the volume I need of worm castings is only available 4 hours away, and that is heavy stuff. so a freight company or hire-a-driver burns fossil fuels, and is counter productive to the organic lifestyle. I need help here...is the fact that these raised beds are going to be forever, and forever organic, does this cancel out the evil of sending the stuff on pallets in trucks?(I pick stuff up if im somewhere, like a trip to concentrates when at a m.d. appointment)
I do not know the names of the products, as i do not use hydrostore stuff...unless its unavailable elsewhere
but they have this and that nutrient, designed for this and that. I was wanting to equate each of the chem-growing products with its organic counterpart.
I dont need to convince him or me..with the same strain, weve both grown it.....both dank, of course mine smelled and tasted way better, but thats subjective. both were one-toke, but that is, too. his yielded more, but bigger pots
a side by side grow is in the works, organic vs hydro, for no other reason than an unbiased comparrison. hopefu;lly we can do it after this fall, if time permits
sorry for any confusion

 

[greekgardner]

try liquid budswell maybe,its a great booster and its orgainic i think