I trim some small leaves that don't allow the sun get to some flowers, specially after the first month of flowering...and maybe I cut almost all leaves 3 or 4 days before harvesting
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Flowering.... trimming fan leaves off....leaving fan leaves on
- Thread starter vapedg13
- Start date
The minute we stepped indoors to grow we can forget about all this "nature does this" to refute any technique.
There aint no sun indoors. We told nature to fuck off, we'll grow without the sun. We'll IMITATE some of what the sun does.
Guess what folks, the natural soil where our beloved plant(s) grow naturally does not have anything remotely close to the amount of beneficial nutrients that we DAILY supply our indoor girls with.
MUCH of what we do "goes against nature" to some degree. Yet we are highly successful all the same!
I defoliate twice in veg normally. Then again at end of stretch. One week or so later, as the leaves have come back with a vengeance, I start plucking any/all fan leaves that have a noticeable stem that I can "nail" without clipping off pcs of flower.
I get 10oz+ dry from girls less than 32" tall and 28" wide. All high quality smoke too.
Pic #1 roughly end of stretch after stripping. Missed plenty but too tired to carry on.
Pic #2 Five gals of leaves plucked this day from 4 plants
Pic #3 Ten days later (today). Ready for some more stripping.
Pic #4 Same plant from side, ready for plucking. Wow, look how deep into here there are good flowers growing.
Pic #5 Harvest day, last grow. Lousy pic, but obviously lots of dense bud in a 5x5 tent. (cfl used just to take pics)
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I've done 5 grows with defoliation and not a single hermie. I don't know why it keeps getting brought up. I've never even heard of anyone getting a hermie from this method. Other much more stressful things seem to come into play, that are often ignored, when it comes to hermies. JMHO though.
blackosprey
Member
Same here, although I would never do full defoliation all at once. I prefer to pull over a period of two-three weeks after stretch is complete. But yeah, I 've never gotten a herm.
I to have never gotten a hermie from doing it either. I also take them over time to allow the plant to recoup. They seem to slow down for a bit if to much is taken at once. But that is just what I have seen from the strains I grow. I have also seen that some plant can be stripped faster than others and not slow down.
Honestly I'm not feeling like I'm gunna get much from this grow. Those pics were taken at end of week 4 its now day 42 and they really dont look like they've grown much if any at all. Pretty dissapointed right now. Unless they really get a growth spurt the last 2-3 weeks I don't see pulling much at all!!!
Lets see what de - leafing in flower will make LED's grow would of bin 12 - 16 0z plants untouched
and who knows now what they will pulli think he is on or ending week 5
Not sure why I even comment on anything DrFever says tbh. So much of what he writes is intelligible. But I think he's being a smart ass with LED's pics above and crapping on his plants and defoliation.
A number of things DrFever and many others refuse to even try to understand:
Those of us getting really good yields using this technique seem to have some extremely important commonalities.
1. We are more limited on light. Meaning watts per sq ft than others. Light is so important to growing nice big flowers. k33ftr33s, who originated the big ass thread that DrFever and friends creating such a shit stir about and lambasted and insulted enough people that it eventually got locked, is growing at 40w @ sqft.
This is 20% less than what is normally considered near optimal. Yet he still gets 10-12oz PER PLANT in his tunnels.
2. Most of us using this style are also extremely limited in height. As such, we are trying to get the most penetration of the limited light mentioned above. You can speak about translucent leaves all you want. But just look at the middle of a 24-36" tall plant (especially indicas) at day 21 of flower. The middle is facking DARK!
3. If one can be even half assedly objective with above for 2 seconds they could probably see where hi defoliation techniques can come into play with positive results.
4. DrFever was once one to jump on the bandwagon of longer veg = less grows per year due to longer veg period when defoliating in veg. Yet he too refused to accept that most of us veg in one space WHILE we flower in another space, then rotate in after harvest. As such THERE IS NO LONGER VEG TIME in his context. We are constantly flowering.
I don't know of a single sole off hand that says this method is BETTER than any other method. It's just another useful method to growing under certain conditions. I could never get 10 zips per plant in my 5'x5' space with 40w @ sqft without defoliating as I do now.
@LEDNewbie,
I would be very interested to know more information on your grow to try to determine why your very healthy looking plants are producing such small bud.
I have plants right now at day 38 in flower that are doing much better.
How many watts per sqft?
HPS or otherwise? If otherwise, include all the possible details.
If HPS, bulb wattage, distance, and how old is the bulb in terms of grows. What brand?
Did the plants go into 12/12 stripped or fully releafed from a stripping or were they not stripped during veg?
Once into 12/12 was there any defoliation prior to end of stretch?
Once transitioned to 12/12 did you change nutrient regimen to a flowering phase with boosters and what not or is it the same regimen as in veg?
Were good quality nutes used?
Were all environmental conditions in place? meaning heat/rh, ph, etc.
Lastly, what strain? I find Indicas do well with this, but I have not done a sativa grow with my height limitations either.
Please note these pics are horrible. I just took them quickly after lights on this morning. But they are day 38 in flower. Notice they have no true fan leaves to speak of. But they do have sugar leaves and some long skinny 1-2 bladed leaves. Just no big fans blocking light. I'll be pulling some more leaves soon. But basically nothing gets pulled unless I can get a hold of the stem easily w/o nipping any of those little flowering hairs. Also, no fan leaves get plucked when the corresponding new flower has yet to really develop it's own leaf.
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3gunpete
Was wondering about popular consensus in regards to removing the very bottom branches through out the beginning of flowering. I kno this is not de-foiliating but was curious for long time. I have tried all sorts of timing for cleaning up bottom branches. For long time I stopped taking any branches during flower. But never saw real harvest weight difference, just less whispy growth for pests to hide on.
Even if I take what seems like enough lower growth in veg, there always tends to be more branches I want to cut after second week of flowering. Thanx and sorry if I broke topic
Even if I take what seems like enough lower growth in veg, there always tends to be more branches I want to cut after second week of flowering. Thanx and sorry if I broke topic
If you look into my thread 3000 watts on 5 x15 foot was 40 watts per 12 plants gave me 7 pounds 3 oz with two plants that were sick as they were mothers from way back lol and i killed it large
now your mentioning this or that one word look around son look who the big yielders are and there not the ones raping there plants period
did heath rape his plants to get his yields ????
i defoiled a plant in flower and i will have results shortly but i can guarntee you there not even close to other ones in size
and yes LED's plants were defoiled and from his own mouth running c02 Gavita power his plants stopped growing in a iponic 600 controlled dialed in room, and way the fck out of your league
Not some closet grow goes to tell you one thing is it really good
now some here de- leaf as to get some lower bud growth that is more towards middle of plant buds not low larf
do you think the big yielders really worry about bottom larf bud ???? you got another thing coming if you think they do they don;t trust me
They worry about canopy managment and a cash crop not them sucker buds on very bottom look at out door plants where is the money sure hell not on lower end of plant but middle to top just like indoor
PS: you can sit there and think whoo ho i made 00.2 grams more in yield counting lower buds or you can scratch them off and get 0z's more by canopy management end of the day that lower larf is shake
now your mentioning this or that one word look around son look who the big yielders are and there not the ones raping there plants period
did heath rape his plants to get his yields ????
i defoiled a plant in flower and i will have results shortly but i can guarntee you there not even close to other ones in size
and yes LED's plants were defoiled and from his own mouth running c02 Gavita power his plants stopped growing in a iponic 600 controlled dialed in room, and way the fck out of your league
Not some closet grow goes to tell you one thing is it really good
now some here de- leaf as to get some lower bud growth that is more towards middle of plant buds not low larf
do you think the big yielders really worry about bottom larf bud ???? you got another thing coming if you think they do they don;t trust me
They worry about canopy managment and a cash crop not them sucker buds on very bottom look at out door plants where is the money sure hell not on lower end of plant but middle to top just like indoor
PS: you can sit there and think whoo ho i made 00.2 grams more in yield counting lower buds or you can scratch them off and get 0z's more by canopy management end of the day that lower larf is shake
While I couldnt say either way scientifically I used to do the below when I was growing horizontally. The result was 2-liter + colas and lots of them. No larf.
In veg, I'd tie the plant over to get many arms shooting up to try to become dominate colas. I'd then untie.
I'd strip all lower crap day 1 of 12/12.. and then do another stripping day 14 of 12/12 of anything that would ultimately become larf.
Despite many saying that it'd stunt the plant the variety I was running performed great doing the above routine. Now.. I was taking branches, leaves, flower sites, etc.. not just leaves.
...For whatever it's worth. I cant say the yield was much greater, but what I did yield was all 100% worthwhile nuggage.. no bullshit to trim.. no larf.
More unintelligible dribble from someone whom can't even form a sentence.
1. I was fairly explicit in defining whom tends to use these methods. As you have previously heard mentioned, it is also not cash crop dope dealers. But MMJ users fitting under very tight restrictions and needing to get the most they can from limited numbers.
2. You have refused to acknowledge all those that posted yields of 12-19 OUNCES per plant using this method.
3. AGAIN, I state it isn't the be all end all of yield and growing mmj. But then again, nor are you! The method seems to fit certain growers needs quite well.
4. Why do you insist on berating every person that has shown proven success using the method?
5. Do you really believe your 6-8 month veg plants are going to be the cats meow of yield per $ spent to grow? Or is it just an ego thing to say "I grew a 4 lb plant" (or whatever your goal is). *You do mention 122 watts per sq foot in your grow. But because you have no idea how to form a sentence I don't know that anyone could ever decipher what watts are being used on which grow.
6. You also guesstimate 1.5-2.5 lbs from 11 plants in your current grow. One that you had hope to achieve 3 lbs from 12. So I guess ya lost one somewhere, sadly. But do you realize that range is a 70% increase from 1.5-2.5? Clearly not an educated guess.
6a. But just for fun, lets guesstimate k33ftr33s yield for 11 plants compared to yours since it's 40 watts per sq foot. 11 x 12 oz per plant = 132 oz / 16 oz per lb = 8.25 lbs.
6b. If you want we could look at D9's defoliated yields, but that would be sickeningly more and put shame to your ideas. Although, to be fair, I have no idea what his watts per sq ft was back then either.
In the end DrFever, it's really about you not believing there is EVER a reason or use for defoliation as a grow method of cannabis. Now matter how much evidence is placed before you, you still prefer to be argumentative, and unwilling to accept the results of those that have done well with it. This quite simply is defined as ignorance. And for you, ignorance truly is bliss.
I hope that by using sentence structure what I've written has not gone over your head.
May all your grows be bountiful & successful.
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I just happened to have this conversation today.. Thought this might fit well here as well...
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Defoliation is an extreme marijuana growth technique. It's not to be done lightly.
I believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation.From what I read...
what's most important is studying how the plant actually grows,*To get the best results, you should start defoliation in the vegetative stage.
Leaf removal in bud is beneficial after stretch but most important to yields is management and the creation of a more compact plant with more budding sites in a given size.*
Stripping and bending takes practice but you must do it to get practice. By starting in veg you risk no bud. Veg plants are replaceable so experiment and be ready to devote a little more time to prepare them.
But defoliation doesn't end in the vegetative stage. also continue to pull the fan leaves off of my flowering plants to expose the buds.
As far as when and how often, don't get too scientific about it.*
Usually if things look leafy, meaning that you see more leaf than budsites when viewing the crop, it may be time for another deleafing.
It usually takes a week to 10 days for a plant to releaf to the point that there are 2-4 new leaves that have flattened and greened enough to deleaf again.*This repeated releafing process allows that lower growth to benefit from the maturing of the immediate leaf mass.*
Leaf removal stimulates lower and mid bud growth by exposing those normally shaded out areas to premium light. Of course those new to the technique should start slow, but if you start too slow you won't remove enough leaf to see the best result.*You basically want to prevent any 'shade' from happening.
2cents...
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Defoliation is an extreme marijuana growth technique. It's not to be done lightly.
I believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation.From what I read...
what's most important is studying how the plant actually grows,*To get the best results, you should start defoliation in the vegetative stage.
Leaf removal in bud is beneficial after stretch but most important to yields is management and the creation of a more compact plant with more budding sites in a given size.*
Stripping and bending takes practice but you must do it to get practice. By starting in veg you risk no bud. Veg plants are replaceable so experiment and be ready to devote a little more time to prepare them.
But defoliation doesn't end in the vegetative stage. also continue to pull the fan leaves off of my flowering plants to expose the buds.
As far as when and how often, don't get too scientific about it.*
Usually if things look leafy, meaning that you see more leaf than budsites when viewing the crop, it may be time for another deleafing.
It usually takes a week to 10 days for a plant to releaf to the point that there are 2-4 new leaves that have flattened and greened enough to deleaf again.*This repeated releafing process allows that lower growth to benefit from the maturing of the immediate leaf mass.*
Leaf removal stimulates lower and mid bud growth by exposing those normally shaded out areas to premium light. Of course those new to the technique should start slow, but if you start too slow you won't remove enough leaf to see the best result.*You basically want to prevent any 'shade' from happening.
2cents...
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first off is there any scientific study on this matter????? what do most hordicultural schools practice ??, and most farmers practice when does pruning actually take place ??? early spring or fall not during veg and flower cycles . WORKS ON EVERYTHING
To produce large amount of yields tomato plants and MJ in reality are close if you think about it just google removing suckers from tomato plants why is that????? is it to produce nice sized tomatoes and less energy wasted from plant to do so ????
A plant wastes precious energy several ways. A tall plant needs to use energy to build extra stem, and then use extra energy to move water up higher, this is why I believe "scrog" methods are productive. An untrimmed bushy plant causes the plant to expend energy to build elaborate branches and leaves, and then has to use excess energy to supply all these structures. Careful trimming to remove unnecessary branches (which wont produce nice buds) and unproductive suckers will leave more energy for a larger yield. Suckers do exactly as their name suggests, they suck needless energy from the plant which can be put to better use, towards yield and for the believers of trimming fan leafs
i love the it stops the stretch phase you ever wonder why lol stretch phase in most cases is a good thing unless of course your growing in a show box
Here some scientific studies to prove please show me other wise
Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids (Shipperke, 04.02.2002; Ca, 03.13.2002). Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant. meristems (UK Tricky Knome, 03.14.2002).
Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.
There is a relationship regarding the amount of carbohydrates a leaf produces and CO2 intake relative to outside forces. When you have a situation whereby the leaf is no longer productive for the plant for whatever reason that may be - low light, old age, disease, insect attack etc, the plant will discard it. (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002.
To produce large amount of yields tomato plants and MJ in reality are close if you think about it just google removing suckers from tomato plants why is that????? is it to produce nice sized tomatoes and less energy wasted from plant to do so ????
A plant wastes precious energy several ways. A tall plant needs to use energy to build extra stem, and then use extra energy to move water up higher, this is why I believe "scrog" methods are productive. An untrimmed bushy plant causes the plant to expend energy to build elaborate branches and leaves, and then has to use excess energy to supply all these structures. Careful trimming to remove unnecessary branches (which wont produce nice buds) and unproductive suckers will leave more energy for a larger yield. Suckers do exactly as their name suggests, they suck needless energy from the plant which can be put to better use, towards yield and for the believers of trimming fan leafs
i love the it stops the stretch phase you ever wonder why lol stretch phase in most cases is a good thing unless of course your growing in a show box
Here some scientific studies to prove please show me other wise
Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids (Shipperke, 04.02.2002; Ca, 03.13.2002). Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant. meristems (UK Tricky Knome, 03.14.2002).
Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.
There is a relationship regarding the amount of carbohydrates a leaf produces and CO2 intake relative to outside forces. When you have a situation whereby the leaf is no longer productive for the plant for whatever reason that may be - low light, old age, disease, insect attack etc, the plant will discard it. (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002.
