Decrease of yield of a once reliable genetics

[hydrodreams]

Hy growers

I am from Switzerland and registered here because there seem to be people from allover so a lot of peoples opinion can be heard, unlike swiss or german grow- forums, which often seem to be occupied by a small group of writers.

English is not my native language, so don't be so strict with my grammar please.

Here is the issue that interests me so much again and again over many years:

I observed over the last 12 years, that 3 times the same thing happened. Somebody (I don't know who) got a really good clone or selected it himself from seeds. The selected clone ended up in many peoples hands. Some of the people used the clone to get a mother and selfsupply themself with clones. Others made a lot of mothers and supplied many people who are to busy/lazy to make their own clones.

So a lot of people finally ended up with an outstanding pheno of a certain genetics for a few years. After a few years, the yield and uniformity started to decrease and you could ask every owner of the pheno and he would tell you his plants are also significantly decreasing in yield and uniformity.

Thats what I experienced 3 times in our area with different genetics. The last time just weeks ago.

It always made me very busy what are the reasons that all people are affected after a few years, even if many of them are cuting their own and are working very clean.....

If anybody can show my links in this forum about discussions where people talk about the factors that makes a pheno/ genetics performance regarding yield decreasing, I would be very glad.

Generally I wonder that I rarely see this issue discussed in forums.


Thanks to anyone who shares his findings about this issue.

Hydrodreams

 

[sgapetti]

Wsup HD , there are several topics on what they describe as genetic drift in clones, however , as usual , there are different opinions about it.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248249&highlight=drift

Peace S

 

[hydrodreams]

Thanks a lot sgapetti. Thats exactly the kind of thread I was looking for. I just didn't know what terms to search with....

 

[Nunsacred]

In a plant cell there are mitochondria making energy.
They are something like organic batteries.
They have their own DNA; they're like captive bacteria.
They make oxygen free radicals as an accidental by-product which mutate DNA, usually their own.
Plus their DNA repair is shit compared to the plant's "normal" kit.

It's usually these which expire first in an old clone line.
But even if you could replace them with fresh ones
You'd still get accumulation of mutations in the standard chromosomes eventually, no matter how clean your blades etc.

 

[hydrodreams]

Hy Nunsacred

Very interesting your post, like many others of yours that I read about this issue. Are you a biologist?

So what is your final statement to the interested grower in this issue?

Something like: "Growers get used that it can happen anytime that your pheno will be lost and you cant do anything". ?

Hydrodreams

 

[amannamedtruth]

Sometimes I wonder if blight like fusarium and verticillium wilt can be passed on through clones. These blights sometimes don't show until mid to late flower...veg plants can be hard to determine that they have the disease. Perhaps this is being passed through the clones and plant tissues and or the disease is causing the genetic mutations Nunsacred is referring to? Nice topic.

 

[hydrodreams]

Sometimes I wonder if blight like fusarium and verticillium wilt can be passed on through clones. These blights sometimes don't show until mid to late flower...veg plants can be hard to determine that they have the disease. Perhaps this is being passed through the clones and plant tissues and or the disease is causing the genetic mutations Nunsacred is referring to? Nice topic.

Yes, a very important lesson when growing Cannabis: Don't make a fast diagnosis. Always consider everything.

 

[greenpinky]

Good luck trying to figure it out hydro.. my only suggestion is make some seeds from ur clone that is showing the sighns the mutation..my bet is it will have seeds that are close to its old self, depending one the male u use, a nd all the other billion factors..

 

[stickshift]

In a plant cell there are mitochondria making energy.
They are something like organic batteries.
They have their own DNA; they're like captive bacteria.
They make oxygen free radicals as an accidental by-product which mutate DNA, usually their own.
Plus their DNA repair is shit compared to the plant's "normal" kit.

It's usually these which expire first in an old clone line.
But even if you could replace them with fresh ones
You'd still get accumulation of mutations in the standard chromosomes eventually, no matter how clean your blades etc.

doesn't the chloroplast act in the same way, it can degrade too? ...

 

[Nunsacred]

Hy Nunsacred

Very interesting your post, like many others of yours that I read about this issue. Are you a biologist?

So what is your final statement to the interested grower in this issue?

Something like: "Growers get used that it can happen anytime that your pheno will be lost and you cant do anything". ?

Hydrodreams

biologist ? yes.
Final statement? What? Why do I have to make a final statement?

No simple answer to any plant breeding question.

That statement which I didn't make ^^ is mostly true for cannabis, ie. a pheno is temporary. It's an annual, it's designed for sexual reproduction, not to be immortal.
However some other plants have managed to succeed clonally/asexually so there's always hope of finding a cannabis line which also can manage that.

If that's what you hope for.
If variation is so unwanted, then I suggest a different hobby!

Stickshift, I think chloroplasts have a higher origin than mitochondria.
So I think they may be more resistant to mutation, better accuracy of replication etc. but yes a similar issue where a plant cutting might have only mutant ones and therefore be diseased.

 

[hydrodreams]

@Nunsacred:

Thanks.

Do you have an explanation how other industries deal with that problem?
I mean, a cocumber or a tomato was also designed for sexual reproduction and one season life....

Hydrodreams

 

[W89]

maybe you could cross you special pheno to a cucumber then Bx it till you get what your looking for lol

 

[Nunsacred]

@Nunsacred:

Thanks.

Do you have an explanation how other industries deal with that problem?
I mean, a cocumber or a tomato was also designed for sexual reproduction and one season life....

Hydrodreams

Funnily enough, no.
If you find an explanation, do please share it

Edit : actually I do remember being told that cell culture is important because it's useful for eliminating some kinds of disease. It's like resetting the plant tissue to young, juvenile state again in a sterile environment. It needs quite a lot of expertise and the balance of hormones is important.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Do you have an explanation how other industries deal with that problem?
I mean, a cocumber or a tomato was also designed for sexual reproduction and one season life....

Hydrodreams

Don't know how they do it but I know how I'd approach the issue.

Considering it's a legal commercial enterprise, it becomes a simple (yet labor and time intensive) matter of breeding what you want from two separate genetic lines of your specific vegetable/flower/fruit.

Having several phenos of each strain will cut down on complete wipeouts each run and increase your chances of not having a single pheno that develops a fatal issue.

By having two lines producing 'similar' products you also guard against things that would be very prone to affecting all phenos. Only half your production would be affected or at least you'd have varying degrees between the two lines.

Commercial has a LOT more freedom as they can work with hundreds of thousands of sprouts a year... if need be.

Stay Safe!

 

[Sinkyone]

Clones don't last forever, take a look at the process known as "Muller's Ratchet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muller's_ratchet

 

[GroovyGorilla]

doesn't the chloroplast act in the same way, it can degrade too? ...

Chlorophyll and mitochondria are both organelles that hold their own genetic code in rings of DNA*[1] that are vulnerable to mutation by free radicals. The process of photosynthesis produces free radical forms of oxygen that can mutate chloroplast DNA(cDNA). Respiration also produces free radicals capable of mutating mitochondria DNA(mtDNA). Most of these free radicals are neutralized in the Cytosol by antioxidant enzymes. Any free radical molecule that interacts with a ring of DNA instead of being neutralized causes a mutation in the genetic code. Repetitive copying of clones allows disadvantageous mutations to accumulate in the genetic code over time. The genetic instructions for synthesis of many enzymes within biochemical reactions are highly sensitive and can be rendered chemically useless to the cell by a single point mutation in DNA. Statistically, mutations are almost always harmful*[2]. As more errors are accumulated in DNA more enzymes become defunct reducing efficiency of the related metabolic pathway. cDNA mutated by free radicals produced during photosynthesis results in mutated enzymes that do not photosynthesize as efficiently therefore reducing the plants ability to store energy into sugar reducing its ability to grow. Likewise the mutations in mtDNA accumulate errors reducing the plants ability to metabolize sugars into energy reducing the plants ability to grow.

Decreased yields across an entire phenotype may be explained by errors in mitochondrial DNA and Chloroplast DNA impairing the ability of the plant to produce and consume energy.




References:
*[1] Botany, An introduction to plant biology 2/e, by James D Mauseth (ISBN: 0-7637-0746-5) pp 103
*[2] Botany, An introduction to plant biology 2/e, by James D Mauseth pp 447


More information is also available:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoxide Free radicals produced during photosynthesis
http://www.lgbp.univ-mrs.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=15 Study of free radical stresses in chloroplasts
http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/155/1/93.full#sec-1 - Possibility of free radicals as signaling molecules

 

[BasementGrower]

Hy growers

I am from Switzerland and registered here because there seem to be people from allover so a lot of peoples opinion can be heard, unlike swiss or german grow- forums, which often seem to be occupied by a small group of writers.

English is not my native language, so don't be so strict with my grammar please.

Here is the issue that interests me so much again and again over many years:

I observed over the last 12 years, that 3 times the same thing happened. Somebody (I don't know who) got a really good clone or selected it himself from seeds. The selected clone ended up in many peoples hands. Some of the people used the clone to get a mother and selfsupply themself with clones. Others made a lot of mothers and supplied many people who are to busy/lazy to make their own clones.

So a lot of people finally ended up with an outstanding pheno of a certain genetics for a few years. After a few years, the yield and uniformity started to decrease and you could ask every owner of the pheno and he would tell you his plants are also significantly decreasing in yield and uniformity.

Thats what I experienced 3 times in our area with different genetics. The last time just weeks ago.

It always made me very busy what are the reasons that all people are affected after a few years, even if many of them are cuting their own and are working very clean.....

If anybody can show my links in this forum about discussions where people talk about the factors that makes a pheno/ genetics performance regarding yield decreasing, I would be very glad.

Generally I wonder that I rarely see this issue discussed in forums.


Thanks to anyone who shares his findings about this issue.

Hydrodreams

im just going to say.. im getting Tissue Culture Kits. off the internet soon.. for shit like this.. taken Cuts over years upon years.. changed the dna.. so u need to tissue culture the strain... to end up with the vigor and shit back.. atleast this is what i was told.!!!!

it happens.. during the Rooting process.. where the plant mutates to finaly produce roots and act like its own plant..
is when the plant changes is what i read. so when ur cloning ur not getting completely the same plant.

 

[DryNobBob]

genetic drift is alive and prevalent in weak or diseased moms getting clones, or just yrs of clones of clones. Its obvious when you see it. they just get wore out, no matter what the theorists say.

 

[Waldgärtner]

How about a virus? They can be very tricky to diagnose, and can sometimes result in seemingly healthy plants "somehow" growing significantly slower than others.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

You can say what you want about genetic drift, but we have been "cloning" fruit trees for a hundred plus years with no ill effects. The science jargon says yes, but the real world says no. For now I side with the real world, and the theories will just remain theories.