Plants looking a bit sickly, Help please :)

[Devilman]

Hey all, Hoping someone can give me an idea wtf is going on with some of my plants at the moment.

To give a bit of background, the vegging plants are around 1.6EC with Optimum nutes, Tapwater is 0.4EC, PH 5.5-5.8.

The problems Im getting are somewhat two-fold.

My vegging plants seem to barely get more than 5 or 6 inches tall before they start showing signs of a slight MG def and then the oldest fanleaves start to pale, then develop a few spots etc.. and they just die back and fall off.


My Flowering plants are also showing some issues, but I suspect this is more VPD related, although not all of it as far as I can see. I have somewhat typical inter-vein chlorosis, while the rest of the leaf stays healthy green. The other problem is that some of the leaves are actually distorted, similar to I have seen in a few other threads, where it seems as though parts of the leaf kinda bubbles / swells slightly and distorts the leaf.


The first 2 pics below show both what seems to be the start of the MG def, aswell as the spotting and dieback of the lower fans.

The 3rd pic is of a recent plant which has just suddenly taken a turn for the worse in the last couple of days, edges of the fanleaves are starting to dry out and crinkle.

The 4th pic is what I think is the "VPD" issues from my flowering plants, while the last pic is the distortion / discoloration on some of the leaves on flowering plants.

Any help you good folk can give is greatly appreciated, as its becoming quite frustrating to resolve the problems. Thanks all.

 

[BrownThumb]

I would go here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=231387 and compare your symptoms to the many pictures of various issues. My guess without looking into it much would be a K def, but give that thread a look yourself and you should be able to ID the issue.

 

[Devilman]

I would go here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=231387 and compare your symptoms to the many pictures of various issues. My guess without looking into it much would be a K def, but give that thread a look yourself and you should be able to ID the issue.

I have spent a fair ammount of time in both of the "sick plant diagnosis" threads trying to ID the issue and while I can at least partly ID some of the problems, the cause is more the issue.

That is to say, while I can see the slight MG def showing on some of the vegging plants, the flowering plants are a bit more elusive. The main issue is trying to find out why, they arent under-fed, or over-fed, the PH isnt off, so I dont really understand why I am getting these problems..

Btw, you said K-def, but which were you referring to, the vegging plants (first 2 pics), the recently-sick plant (3rd pic) or the flowering plants? (4th and 5th pic).

Thanks again

 

[SeaMaiden]

Offhand, I see mild and progressed Mg-, and mild and progressed P-.

 

[Devilman]

Hmm, not really sure I can even over-water these in clay pebbles / hydro.

I wonder if maybe the problem is more related to excessive saturation of the medium for too long of a period of time, in your case, due to the gravel blocking drainage, in my case, possibly the peat pellet they were initially rooted in.

Just added some cal/mg to the res so hopefully things will improve, but to be honest, I'm surprised I have any cal/mg issues with tapwater that reads 0.4-0.5ec, I would have thought there was plenty available in there.

 

[BrownThumb]

Btw, you said K-def, but which were you referring to, the vegging plants (first 2 pics), the recently-sick plant (3rd pic) or the flowering plants? (4th and 5th pic).

Thanks again

I was looking at the leaf pictures, the 4th and 5th, but you have way more knowledgeable people than myself giving you advice here, Seamaiden, etc. and I would listen to them before me any day. I just quickly looked at the leaf pics and then went to the infirmary to look at pics to see if I could help without spending time I didn't really have ATM when I responded.

You say your PH is on and they are not over or underfed. Obviously, that is not the case, something is off, you just have not caught it yet.

I am doing hempy (and soil..not relevant) right now and can say without a doubt my shit is on, but I am using GH flora series which is designed for dummies like me...they make it real easy to not screw it up. Without being familiar with the nutes you're using, it makes it difficult for me to comment one way or the other on them, but either your PH is off, which you say it is not, or your deficient in one or more nutrients (which can be caused by the PH being off). If your PH is dead-on, and you're sure it's dead-on, your feeding regimen is lacking. Seamaiden says mg and P....go with her, she knows her shit.

 

[Devilman]

I was looking at the leaf pictures, the 4th and 5th, but you have way more knowledgeable people than myself giving you advice here, Seamaiden, etc. and I would listen to them before me any day. I just quickly looked at the leaf pics and then went to the infirmary to look at pics to see if I could help without spending time I didn't really have ATM when I responded.

You say your PH is on and they are not over or underfed. Obviously, that is not the case, something is off, you just have not caught it yet.

I am doing hempy (and soil..not relevant) right now and can say without a doubt my shit is on, but I am using GH flora series which is designed for dummies like me...they make it real easy to not screw it up. Without being familiar with the nutes you're using, it makes it difficult for me to comment one way or the other on them, but either your PH is off, which you say it is not, or your deficient in one or more nutrients (which can be caused by the PH being off). If your PH is dead-on, and you're sure it's dead-on, your feeding regimen is lacking. Seamaiden says mg and P....go with her, she knows her shit.

When I say PH is spot on, I've calibrated my meter a few times and cross-checked it (calibrated with PH7 then tested in PH3 fluid, and vice-verca and its maybe 0.1-0.2 out at most)

Offhand, I see mild and progressed Mg-, and mild and progressed P-.

Aah hey thanks for answering Seamaiden, I had somehow missed your post until now =/

Could you perhaps specify which you see which symptoms on, as they are 2 different "batches" of plants (first 3 pics are veging, last 2 are flowering)

I'm asuming your seeing mild and progressed MG- on the first 3 and the mild and progressed P- on the last 2?

Do you think the P- on the flowering plants (last 2 pics) is due to nutes being off, (not enough, Im currently running around 2.0 EC with 0.4EC Tapwater) or a temp issue? I have had some quite cold nights where they have dropped to maybe 15c, but last time I saw a bit of P- from cold temps, it showed more just as strong purple tones on the leaves.

As you can imagine, with tapwater reading 0.4-0.5EC Im quite surprised Im seeing any MG- at all really, I would have thought my tapwater had plenty.

Thanks all

 

[willyweed]

you dont splash the plants when watering,the other thing i may try is to put some mylar on top of the clay pebbles to stop the light going into the top of the clay pebbles.good luck

 

[willyweed]

also do you soak the clay pebbles and ph before use,just checking

 

[SeaMaiden]

When I say PH is spot on, I've calibrated my meter a few times and cross-checked it (calibrated with PH7 then tested in PH3 fluid, and vice-verca and its maybe 0.1-0.2 out at most)


Aah hey thanks for answering Seamaiden, I had somehow missed your post until now =/

Could you perhaps specify which you see which symptoms on, as they are 2 different "batches" of plants (first 3 pics are veging, last 2 are flowering)

I'm asuming your seeing mild and progressed MG- on the first 3 and the mild and progressed P- on the last 2?

Do you think the P- on the flowering plants (last 2 pics) is due to nutes being off, (not enough, Im currently running around 2.0 EC with 0.4EC Tapwater) or a temp issue? I have had some quite cold nights where they have dropped to maybe 15c, but last time I saw a bit of P- from cold temps, it showed more just as strong purple tones on the leaves.

As you can imagine, with tapwater reading 0.4-0.5EC Im quite surprised Im seeing any MG- at all really, I would have thought my tapwater had plenty.

Thanks all

Ok... first two/three pix, I see the interveinal chlorosis with green margins, making a bit of a halo--that's your first indicator Mg isn't being utilized. The halo progresses to full yellowing, then necrosis.

I also see reddened petioles, the first tell of a problem with P utilization. Then, the leaf tips dying back, almost looking like a disease, is a pretty sure tell of P issues.

Cold temps can absolutely affect uptake and utilization of all nutrients. It's just as important, if not more so, to keep the roots warm as anything else.

If you're relying on your tapwater to provide certain elements, you're playing a guessing game. It is likely that any Mg in your tapwater is bound with CO3 (carbonate), and that bond is difficult to break. Microbes can do it, but I don't see anything in your post that indicates you're using soil biology here.

Quite fortunately, Mg- is very easy to diagnose and correct, and it begins with 1/4tsp/gal water of MgSO4 (that's Epsom salt). Add a drop or three of dish soap to break surface tension, apply as a foliar ensuring you get it UNDER the leaves (can you say STOMATA? STOMATA). If the plant greens up, you know for certain that it's a Mg-. Address that and the cool temps first, before you head off looking to something else for resolution.

 

[Devilman]

you dont splash the plants when watering,the other thing i may try is to put some mylar on top of the clay pebbles to stop the light going into the top of the clay pebbles.good luck

Nope, I try to avoid splashing the plants too much so they dont get light-fried. I was wondering though, why you worry about the light hitting the top of the pebbles?

also do you soak the clay pebbles and ph before use,just checking

I usually give them a damn good wash out etc.. in hot water, leave them to soak in it for a while, then drain etc.. and re-soak in PH'ed water (sometimes pre-loaded with a bit of nutes)

Ok... first two/three pix, I see the interveinal chlorosis with green margins, making a bit of a halo--that's your first indicator Mg isn't being utilized. The halo progresses to full yellowing, then necrosis.

I also see reddened petioles, the first tell of a problem with P utilization. Then, the leaf tips dying back, almost looking like a disease, is a pretty sure tell of P issues.

Cold temps can absolutely affect uptake and utilization of all nutrients. It's just as important, if not more so, to keep the roots warm as anything else.

If you're relying on your tapwater to provide certain elements, you're playing a guessing game. It is likely that any Mg in your tapwater is bound with CO3 (carbonate), and that bond is difficult to break. Microbes can do it, but I don't see anything in your post that indicates you're using soil biology here.

Quite fortunately, Mg- is very easy to diagnose and correct, and it begins with 1/4tsp/gal water of MgSO4 (that's Epsom salt). Add a drop or three of dish soap to break surface tension, apply as a foliar ensuring you get it UNDER the leaves (can you say STOMATA? STOMATA). If the plant greens up, you know for certain that it's a Mg-. Address that and the cool temps first, before you head off looking to something else for resolution.

Well I have gone ahead and added some cal/mg to the res and so far the plants in the first 3 pics havent got any worse, so I guess thats a good sign.

With regard to the P-, I am asuming you were talking about the last 2 pics mainly (from the flowering plants) these are indeed having some cold nights at the moment so I suspect that is mainly the culprit.

However, the plants in veg (first pics) have a pretty stable environmental conditions, typically temps around 23-27c, Humidity around 45-70% (varies a bit during the day, still trying to pin it down) and 24hr lighting.

Do you think the problems with the apparent MG def etc.. in the first 3 pics is just hunger? or not regular enough feeding?

Typically my nute mix is fairly simple with just "Optimum" hardwater nutes @ 2ml/L and I've recently added a touch of cal/mg @ around 0.5ml/L (Didnt wanna go overboard early since my tapwater usually runs around 0.4EC on its own), which gives a net EC of around 1.8-1.9, so I dont think they are hungry.


My other wonder is if its a watering regularity issue. My "Flood and drain" so far isnt actually finished, so currently they are being "flooded" by submerging the pot in the res then draining, But I have noticed that even some 12hrs later when you move the pots, there is a pool of water under them and I'm wondering if this is causing a kind of "wet zone" in the bottom of the pot which has very little D/O left.

Could this be a problem? if so, what would be a good way to counter it, try to raise the pots up so they can drain better, or simply "re-flood" them more often to change the water in the wet-zone regularly so it doesnt get depleted of disolved oxygen?

Thanks again all

 

[SeaMaiden]

Can't answer the second set of questions, but to answer re: Mg-, yes, it's the first set of pictures. The second set of pictures are the ones I suspect slight P-, you're correct.

Don't forget, you can use the Cal-Mag as a foliar if the EC for root feedings ends up too high. It's not exactly the optimum method, but it certainly works. I use foliar feeding/Tx regularly, though nowhere nearly as often as I always intend.

I doubt the puddle of water under the pots is causing low O2 levels.

 

[doneit]

I say PH problems, once you straighten it out it will take a few days for them to come around.
be patient, check EVERYTHING , once you find the culprit give them time to bounce back.
Good luck

 

[Devilman]

Can't answer the second set of questions, but to answer re: Mg-, yes, it's the first set of pictures. The second set of pictures are the ones I suspect slight P-, you're correct.

Don't forget, you can use the Cal-Mag as a foliar if the EC for root feedings ends up too high. It's not exactly the optimum method, but it certainly works. I use foliar feeding/Tx regularly, though nowhere nearly as often as I always intend.

I doubt the puddle of water under the pots is causing low O2 levels.

Well, I dont think the EC would be too high for root feeding, that comment was more made with the thinking in mind that "they cant be that hungry with a 2.0EC".

This might seem like a stupid question but, generally if you see a mild mg def like mine, would that usually be indicitive of the plants needing a greater supply, thus an amount should be added to the res (that is to say, added / amended to the regular nutes) or that they just need a "quick hit" of MG via foliar, or 1-time drench?

Also, assuming one has raised the mg levels sufficiently, will the "pale halo" around the perimeter of the leaf disappear, or is it rather some other def's that once the damage is done, it doesnt heal, but new growth is unaffected?

I say PH problems, once you straighten it out it will take a few days for them to come around.
be patient, check EVERYTHING , once you find the culprit give them time to bounce back.
Good luck

I'm currently re-checking my PH meter again as we speak, It only has single-point calibration (can choose from PH4, 7 and 10) and I usually calibrate it at 7, then rinse it off and test it in PH4 solution. So far, just testing it not re-calibrating, it shows 4.1 in PH4 solution and 7.1 in PH7 solution (letting it sit in each for at least 5mins after the measurement has stopped moving).

So it would seem that, at-worst, my PH is off by 0.1, which makes it quite unlikely to be PH issues, which is strange to be honest as some of the spotting on the leaves I have had before has made me question the validity of my PH meters readings before, but it seems to be fine?

 

[BrownThumb]

If you've calibrated that thoroughly I am doubting your PH is off. You obviously know what you're doing on that topic, so I would be looking at what you're feeding your plants as the issue. There may be something to what you were saying about stagnant solution in the bottom of your pots, but then again, it may not have anything to do with it. I would look hard at whatever your feeding with since your PH and PPM/EC are the only parameters you control and you know what you're doing, so... what else could it be?

 

[SeaMaiden]

Well, I dont think the EC would be too high for root feeding, that comment was more made with the thinking in mind that "they cant be that hungry with a 2.0EC".

Agreed, but at that level it can be easy to take it just a bit too far and burn.

This might seem like a stupid question but, generally if you see a mild mg def like mine, would that usually be indicitive of the plants needing a greater supply, thus an amount should be added to the res (that is to say, added / amended to the regular nutes) or that they just need a "quick hit" of MG via foliar, or 1-time drench?

That's difficult to say because it really is a balancing act, but for me, yes, the simplest action I would take were I in your position would be to add just a bit more Mg to the mix. This is one of the reasons why I ended up using Ca and Mg separately in my coir grows--because doing that allowed me far greater wiggle room with regard to pushing EC.

A note: Once I add molasses, I stop measuring EC because the molasses makes it go whonky-high.

As for whether it should be a one-time drench or regular addition, since we're talking a highly mobile nutrient, I think you're going to have to bump it slightly. I would start with 1/8-1/4tsp MgSO4 (Epsom salt) per gallon. For foliar I use the rate of 1/4tsp/gal as my starting point. If you get a relatively instant greening up, then that's one issue you've got conquered.

Also, assuming one has raised the mg levels sufficiently, will the "pale halo" around the perimeter of the leaf disappear, or is it rather some other def's that once the damage is done, it doesnt heal, but new growth is unaffected?

Yes, the halo should disappear completely. The only thing that you can't correct once it's occurred is necrosis.

 

[Devilman]

Agreed, but at that level it can be easy to take it just a bit too far and burn.

That's difficult to say because it really is a balancing act, but for me, yes, the simplest action I would take were I in your position would be to add just a bit more Mg to the mix. This is one of the reasons why I ended up using Ca and Mg separately in my coir grows--because doing that allowed me far greater wiggle room with regard to pushing EC.

A note: Once I add molasses, I stop measuring EC because the molasses makes it go whonky-high.

As for whether it should be a one-time drench or regular addition, since we're talking a highly mobile nutrient, I think you're going to have to bump it slightly. I would start with 1/8-1/4tsp MgSO4 (Epsom salt) per gallon. For foliar I use the rate of 1/4tsp/gal as my starting point. If you get a relatively instant greening up, then that's one issue you've got conquered.

Yes, the halo should disappear completely. The only thing that you can't correct once it's occurred is necrosis.

Agreed about how easy it can be to push it too far and burn, to be fair I dont usually run such a high EC during Veg, I just let it rise that high after the addition of some cal/mg. Typically I run the EC in the ballpark of 1.6, whish is usually around 2ml/L nutes (always amuses me how nute makers give really high recommendations, mine say I should be using 3.5ml/L, god knows what EC would be if I tried that :O)

I dont really use molasses etc.. because (at least to my way of thinking) those "natural sugars" etc.. feed the microbes in the soil, which feed the plant, and I have always been led to believe that most of those type of bennies dont really live too well in a typical chemical-salt solution such as a lot of Hydro nute packs.

I've been using "Carbaload" on my flowering plants still, even taking into account what I just said above, Im not sure it even really does anything on a salt based hydro setup, I guess it cant hurt

So is Necrosis the only deficiency symptom that is prettymuch un-repairable? I dont think I have ever really seen any of my plants recover fully from anything, even just yellowing of the leaves etc.. Imay up the nutes etc.. buteven that would never seem to get them to re-colour, it would just stop it going any further. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong lol

I was looking at Epsom salts (or more accurately where to get some here in UK), I presume Im after the "food grade" stuff? Seems there are other grades that are used in everything from bath salts to foot spa's?

Im surprised at the differing prices of this stuff too, I seen everything from 25KG bags at like, £30, to little 250g tubs, for £5 or more lol, Any good places you can think of to get stuff, A food supplier, or a health shop type place?

Thanks again

 

[BrownThumb]

The Epsom salts used for bathing are fine to use, in fact that's what most people use in the US, if I am not mistaken. It's easy to find would be why, any drugstore carries it. Not sure about food grade ES.

 

[SeaMaiden]

There's no difference to the best of my knowledge, as the box of Epsom I have has directions on how to use it as a laxative. You're looking for the chemical composition of MgSO4 (magnesium sulfate).

Yes, necrosis is the symptom that just never comes back, so to speak. I've used sugars in my chem salt grows, but my goal is to use the least amount of nutrients when I've grown using that method (which has, admittedly, been a while). Cuz I am CHEAP.

Carboload would be very much the same I would think as something like Foundation (an ag product, smells a lot like brewer's yeast because that's a big part of what's in it), which is another form of carbohydrates that probably also offers some aminos.

 

[Devilman]

Thanks for that BrownThumb & SeaMaiden, I wasnt sure if you had to use food-grade, as the ones for bathing etc.. might have had added stuff in that the plants didnt like.

I've added some Plant Magic Magne-cal to the res (first at 0.5ml/L then increasing it to 1ml/L) but still seeing the same signs of mg def, with the pale "halo" around the perimeter of the leaves etc..

It got me thinking, perhaps my water (which is pretty shitty EC) has too much ca, for the amount of mg its carrying, so when adding a cal/mg additive perhaps its resulting in too much ca, locking out mg? (If I remember rightly, too much of one locks out the other and vice-verca?)

So I decided to see if I could find an up-to-date water quality report for my area and finally came up with this... It covers a period of the first 9 months of 2012..




As you can see from the first pic, I have pretty damn hard water and the 2nd pic gives a more detailed list of everything, which at rough glance shows I got around 90-100mg/L Ca (which is 90-100ppm I believe?), but around 190mg/l CaCO3, but with very little mg, only around 8-9mg/L (which is just 9ppm ish?)

Any thoughts welcome on my water