is anyone using 100watt or high single diode leds yet?
- Thread starter camplo
- Start date
Never grown tomatoes before, I really couldn't tell you. I'm guessing it's similar to mmj, meaning they have absorption peaks that benefit from both NW and WW. If you look in the background of that photo you can see another CPU cooler, a bit smaller, and passive. It has a 20W NW LED mounted to it. It runs hot, however, so I'm waiting to attach a case fan and throat to direct the air past the heat sink fins before running it for extended periods of time.
I'd recommend active CPU coolers for this task at pretty much any wattage. Noise is not an issue with the SNK-P0034AP4, imo, and it's only considered a moderately quiet heat sink (the Enermax cools more and should be even quieter). Since I recommend active coolers I also recommend going with higher wattage LED's. An active CPU cooler than can effectively cool 50W is not that much cheaper than one that can cool 100W. That NoFan heat sink is way too expensive, imo, you might as well buy a professional panel in my mind as the heat sink alone will put you at more than $1/W.
The 50W LED seemed to overpower the seedling at 9" and 15". A distance of 20" didn't seem to reverse the plant's shyness so I decided to back it a little more and I'm at 24" right now hoping that it perks up.
I'd recommend active CPU coolers for this task at pretty much any wattage. Noise is not an issue with the SNK-P0034AP4, imo, and it's only considered a moderately quiet heat sink (the Enermax cools more and should be even quieter). Since I recommend active coolers I also recommend going with higher wattage LED's. An active CPU cooler than can effectively cool 50W is not that much cheaper than one that can cool 100W. That NoFan heat sink is way too expensive, imo, you might as well buy a professional panel in my mind as the heat sink alone will put you at more than $1/W.
The 50W LED seemed to overpower the seedling at 9" and 15". A distance of 20" didn't seem to reverse the plant's shyness so I decided to back it a little more and I'm at 24" right now hoping that it perks up.
We must remember that the dissipated heat decreases when the efficiency of the LED increase. So for example the CREE XM-L T6 which has an efficiency of 40%, only 6W will be transformed on heat and having them cooled properly will make them work for an eternity
These guys have interesting CPU coolers.
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu_top.html
130W of cooling:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynatron-EV...?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3cc78c5a60
^^^ Really good deal, imo, but a little noisy.
Edit: Regarding the correct spectrum for tomato plants, the little seedling seems to respond positively to the supplemental panels at this point. With just the 50W WW I have to raise the light up to 20"-24" otherwise it starts to fold its cotyledon leaves to hide from the light, whereas if I turn one or two supplemental panels on I can actually move the 50W WW closer (I'm at 16" right now) and it still looks like it's enjoying itself. Could be the NW's in the supplemental panels, or something else entirely, I really don't know. Perhaps I can look further into this once the 20W NW has a case fan hooked up to it and I can use that as a control.
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu_top.html
130W of cooling:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynatron-EV...?pt=US_CPU_Fans_Heatsinks&hash=item3cc78c5a60
^^^ Really good deal, imo, but a little noisy.
Edit: Regarding the correct spectrum for tomato plants, the little seedling seems to respond positively to the supplemental panels at this point. With just the 50W WW I have to raise the light up to 20"-24" otherwise it starts to fold its cotyledon leaves to hide from the light, whereas if I turn one or two supplemental panels on I can actually move the 50W WW closer (I'm at 16" right now) and it still looks like it's enjoying itself. Could be the NW's in the supplemental panels, or something else entirely, I really don't know. Perhaps I can look further into this once the 20W NW has a case fan hooked up to it and I can use that as a control.
T
trem0lo
I don't doubt that high wattage LEDs work. CPU coolers would cool them, but they are clunky, heavy and sometimes very sharp, not to mention expensive.
At least one of the datasheets I read showed them with a 60 or 90 degree beam angle, which could burn if too close.
The reason people aren't crazy over them is that there are no results, really. Show me an amazing grow bursting at the seams with dank buds and I will be first in line.
At least one of the datasheets I read showed them with a 60 or 90 degree beam angle, which could burn if too close.
The reason people aren't crazy over them is that there are no results, really. Show me an amazing grow bursting at the seams with dank buds and I will be first in line.
The LEDs with 60 and 90 degree beam angle have in fact an optionaly glass lens that could be mounted on top of the LED (together with and metal reflector - which can be used alone, without glass lens). Their irradiation angle is very wide, around 160 degree.
I am trying to be neutral (if this can be possible for a LED addict
) , but we need a little more time to see results. High power multichip LEDs are new on the market : now more than two years from first appearance, one year since the prices became affordable, but to few pioneers willing to risk their money and time to test them, maybe in several configurations and to give feedback to public opinion. This multichip LEDs use the same chips that can be found on the 1W LEDs or 3W (for more recent versions and higher output). This LEDs are not cheap as individual 1W or 3W LEDs, but the price is reasonable. This dose not indicate a low quality products, because chinese manufacters want to sell, and to sell big. If they deliver LEDs which show a short lifetime, the market will automatically reject them, so this is a kind of warranty of quality. The designers of these LEDs have calculated the heat transferred from the junction and they have chosen a primary heat sink (the heat slug - the base of the chip) that can keep the whole LED cool.
Using CPU type heatsinks made with heatpipes is the best way to cool a high power multichip .
Let's see how several grows flow with this types of LEDs and discuss based on real facts.
I have to many LED lights built for my growing needs, but I think in the nearest future I may change my 1W and 3W panel (285W) with just 3x100W or 1x300W (if I will have enough courage to bet on this) for simplicity.
Why shoud I have a 5kg light fixture above my plants , occupying a lot of space, when I can have just a small compact light (0.5kg) one ? Maybe in 3-5 years we will have 300W fixture not bigger than an iPhone, when the LED efficiency will increase (today is 40%).
P.S. I'm to high
I don't mean to be combative, I just honestly disagree with you. CPU coolers can be very cheap, light weight, and compact relative to the wattages that they cool.
Also, don't forget the Kessil H350. 90 degree reflector? Yes, don't get it too close, that's a lot of light. 90W total, custom spectrum, multichip LED. Irrespective of their high price, there are some really good grows using those, imo.
I agree with you, though, I've seen perhaps two people growing with generic multichip LED's. This is the best I've seen. No-name Chinese LED's (probably 35mil chips), approx 150W total. No idea how far along into flower he was here. That's the last we heard of him, although he did mention he bought a bunch more because he liked how they performed and was in the process of converting to LED from HID due to his experiences.
I would definitely like to see multichip LED's rock a grow tent. At least 40W/ft^2, perhaps in a scrog setup; I think that'd be a very informative journal.
Also, don't forget the Kessil H350. 90 degree reflector? Yes, don't get it too close, that's a lot of light. 90W total, custom spectrum, multichip LED. Irrespective of their high price, there are some really good grows using those, imo.
I agree with you, though, I've seen perhaps two people growing with generic multichip LED's. This is the best I've seen. No-name Chinese LED's (probably 35mil chips), approx 150W total. No idea how far along into flower he was here. That's the last we heard of him, although he did mention he bought a bunch more because he liked how they performed and was in the process of converting to LED from HID due to his experiences.
I would definitely like to see multichip LED's rock a grow tent. At least 40W/ft^2, perhaps in a scrog setup; I think that'd be a very informative journal.
T
trem0lo
I'm with you Weed--I needed to see a completed grow using a similar light to mine before I took the plunge. Hopefully others are inspired after seeing the good results from LED grows here.
Why not be the first using high watt chips??
Why not be the first using high watt chips??
Killkingkong
Active member
This thread is pretty interesting. After I'm done with my first grow (Full PC Tower & CFLs) I think I'm going to try and build a LED Mid Tower Case. I Priced things out and for the entire lighting system + cooling it seems to come out to ~$137
Part List:
http://dx.com/p/cree-100w-3000k-8500lm-warm-white-led-emitter-aluminum-plate-silver-dc-30-36v-155741
http://dx.com/p/water-resistant-100w-led-constant-current-source-power-supply-driver-90-265v-144853
http://dx.com/p/fujik-silicone-ther...4579?rt=1&p=2&m=3&r=2&k=1&t=1&s=146055&u=4579
http://www.microcenter.com/product/326048/Hyper_101i_Intel_CPU_Cooler
http://www.microcenter.com/product/397226/80mm_Computer_Case_Fan_with_White_Blade (I plan on replacing the stock heatsink fan with this one)
http://www.microcenter.com/product/274204/Ultra_Kaze_120mm_3,000RPM_Case_Fan (exhaust fan)
Part List:
http://dx.com/p/cree-100w-3000k-8500lm-warm-white-led-emitter-aluminum-plate-silver-dc-30-36v-155741
http://dx.com/p/water-resistant-100w-led-constant-current-source-power-supply-driver-90-265v-144853
http://dx.com/p/fujik-silicone-ther...4579?rt=1&p=2&m=3&r=2&k=1&t=1&s=146055&u=4579
http://www.microcenter.com/product/326048/Hyper_101i_Intel_CPU_Cooler
http://www.microcenter.com/product/397226/80mm_Computer_Case_Fan_with_White_Blade (I plan on replacing the stock heatsink fan with this one)
http://www.microcenter.com/product/274204/Ultra_Kaze_120mm_3,000RPM_Case_Fan (exhaust fan)
I wouldn't be the first. There's a couple guys over on RIU who are vegging with LED flood lights with very good results. One of them has contacted a Chinese manufacturer about a custom spectrum multichip LED.I'm with you Weed--I needed to see a completed grow using a similar light to mine before I took the plunge. Hopefully others are inspired after seeing the good results from LED grows here.
Why not be the first using high watt chips??
But I do have a 50W WW on a tomato plant right now (check the pic earlier in this thread). I recently germ'ed a feminized Big Buddha Auto to go under it, too. It sprouted a tap root, but has yet to break the soil. I'm hoping to flower for "too long" to force her to hermie so I can get some seeds, but I'm guessing I can chop everything except a few popcorn sites. Hopefully an attempt to get seeds won't kill yield much. I'll probably be posting a thread on the grow after both plants veg a bit, I don't wanna snap shots of basically two piles of dirt and a 1" tomato plant. I also plan on adding a 100W custom spectrum multichip LED to the grow at some point, and moving some of the light over to a veg/mother tent.
Killkingkong: Hey, I think you should hold off on that CPU cooler, I just emailed the manufacturer about thermal resistances at various fan RPM's and asked what the current should be for those RPM's. That CPU cooler says it only has two heat pipes which honestly doesn't sound like a lot for 100W, imo, I'm guessing 50-70W max on that one. Then again, Idk how efficient those Cree's are, so maybe they'd only be sending 50-70W of heat into the CPU cooler? Idk, but it's close, imo.
There's lots of good stuff for pretty cheap on eBay. Hell, I got my SuperMicro for $17.50 SHIPPED and temps stay ruler flat with a 50W on it (could probably cool a 100W). Awesome buy, imo, and I got it... on eBay.
Not every strain tend to develop male flowers when kept in flower for to long. You might take in consideration some Colloidal Silver experiments to create feminized seeds (but is not recommended to have both, the mother and the father from the same plant; anyway , it's fun to play with and see what you can achieve).
Can you measure the temperature of your heatsink in different points and share this info with us ? Thank you !
Can you measure the temperature of your heatsink in different points and share this info with us ? Thank you !
hempfield: Thanks for the tip. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where I have to use colloidal Silver, though. I'm aware of the technique, but I'm hoping the girl gets to thinking that no male is within range to pollinate her and she just takes matters into her own hands. The stuff seems cheap enough, though, so I'll consider it.
As for taking temps of the heat sink, I understand your concern, but I implore you to take my word on the matter, it's hardly warm. I wouldn't even call it warm, I'd call it room temperature. I put my finger on the mounting plate (not even at the fins yet) and I'd be very hard pressed to tell you whether the panel was on or off in a blindfold test. If I put my finger on the LED itself (just the White plastic frame) I can feel some warmth, although suspending my hand in front of the emitted light gives a similar sense of heat. Putting my hand in front of the air blowing through the fins feels like a summer breeze. I'd say the Super Micro SNK-P0035AP4 is 100% capable of cooling a 50W multichip LED. So much so that I've bought a second with plans to cool a 100W chip. I'm more worried about how much the light will heat my tent than whether or not the LED will be close enough to "max efficiency," or within operating temp. It should be noted I'm running my fan @ 12VDC/.2A.
Also, I've got a 20W NW on an SNK-P0038P and the damn thing is (super) uncomfortable to the touch. Waaaay too hot. Not embarrassed to admit it, I bought the thing for ~$10 shipped before having done the proper research and thought I'd be alright. I was wrong. Now I've got to go back, build a DIY fan shroud (Super Micro doesn't make one for this model), buy a fan, retrofit everything, etc etc. A pain in the ass and easily not the cheapest route I could have taken. Live and learn. :/ I whole heartedly recommend either getting a CPU cooler with a fan for ANY wattage of multichip LED, or at least buying a comically oversized extruded Aluminum heat sink. To be perfectly honest I don't know how they get those 20W LED flood lights so small, 'cause I feel mine would burn a hole through it.
If you're still worried about my active CPU cooler and temps take a peek at the technical specifications I received from one of Super Micro's thermal engineers:
Assuming a 100W multichip LED is 100% efficient at producing heat...
100W(0.167° C/W) = 16.7°C
at room temp of 30°C or 86°F
30°C + 16.7°C = 46.7°C (116.06°F)
Most multichip LED's have a MAX operating temperature of 85°C (185°F).
I found a silly good deal on my first SNK-P0035AP4 ($17.50 shipped) and the second one I bought was $25 shipped. There are lots more going for the second price on eBay right now with free shipping inside the USA.
Mated with:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Warm-W...292?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257869085c
and you should easily be able to hit $1/W for the entire panel. They bundle Mean Well drivers with many of their lower wattage (<100W) LED's... Or you could contact a Chinese manufacturer if you're thinking you'd like better spectral distribution than just a 450nm Blue + Red phosphor Warm White.
As for taking temps of the heat sink, I understand your concern, but I implore you to take my word on the matter, it's hardly warm. I wouldn't even call it warm, I'd call it room temperature. I put my finger on the mounting plate (not even at the fins yet) and I'd be very hard pressed to tell you whether the panel was on or off in a blindfold test. If I put my finger on the LED itself (just the White plastic frame) I can feel some warmth, although suspending my hand in front of the emitted light gives a similar sense of heat. Putting my hand in front of the air blowing through the fins feels like a summer breeze. I'd say the Super Micro SNK-P0035AP4 is 100% capable of cooling a 50W multichip LED. So much so that I've bought a second with plans to cool a 100W chip. I'm more worried about how much the light will heat my tent than whether or not the LED will be close enough to "max efficiency," or within operating temp. It should be noted I'm running my fan @ 12VDC/.2A.
Also, I've got a 20W NW on an SNK-P0038P and the damn thing is (super) uncomfortable to the touch. Waaaay too hot. Not embarrassed to admit it, I bought the thing for ~$10 shipped before having done the proper research and thought I'd be alright. I was wrong. Now I've got to go back, build a DIY fan shroud (Super Micro doesn't make one for this model), buy a fan, retrofit everything, etc etc. A pain in the ass and easily not the cheapest route I could have taken. Live and learn. :/ I whole heartedly recommend either getting a CPU cooler with a fan for ANY wattage of multichip LED, or at least buying a comically oversized extruded Aluminum heat sink. To be perfectly honest I don't know how they get those 20W LED flood lights so small, 'cause I feel mine would burn a hole through it.
If you're still worried about my active CPU cooler and temps take a peek at the technical specifications I received from one of Super Micro's thermal engineers:
Assuming a 100W multichip LED is 100% efficient at producing heat...
100W(0.167° C/W) = 16.7°C
at room temp of 30°C or 86°F
30°C + 16.7°C = 46.7°C (116.06°F)
Most multichip LED's have a MAX operating temperature of 85°C (185°F).
I found a silly good deal on my first SNK-P0035AP4 ($17.50 shipped) and the second one I bought was $25 shipped. There are lots more going for the second price on eBay right now with free shipping inside the USA.
Mated with:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Warm-W...292?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257869085c
and you should easily be able to hit $1/W for the entire panel. They bundle Mean Well drivers with many of their lower wattage (<100W) LED's... Or you could contact a Chinese manufacturer if you're thinking you'd like better spectral distribution than just a 450nm Blue + Red phosphor Warm White.
Killkingkong
Active member
Killkingkong: Hey, I think you should hold off on that CPU cooler, I just emailed the manufacturer about thermal resistances at various fan RPM's and asked what the current should be for those RPM's. That CPU cooler says it only has two heat pipes which honestly doesn't sound like a lot for 100W, imo, I'm guessing 50-70W max on that one. Then again, Idk how efficient those Cree's are, so maybe they'd only be sending 50-70W of heat into the CPU cooler? Idk, but it's close, imo.
There's lots of good stuff for pretty cheap on eBay. Hell, I got my SuperMicro for $17.50 SHIPPED and temps stay ruler flat with a 50W on it (could probably cool a 100W). Awesome buy, imo, and I got it... on eBay.
Do you think that the built in heat sink plays a big role? I found another 100w LED for almost half the price, but the built in heatsink looks cheap as hell (http://dx.com/p/100w-9000lm-3050k-warm-white-light-10-x-10-led-module-33-35v-169052). I also heard great things about about Cree, so that's why I was leaning towards that more expensive chip.
And assuming that i can keep a 100w LED cool to the touch with one of these heatsinks and a powerful fan would you recommend underclocking (I assume by buying a 90w LED driver) to keep the LED alive longer? Or are LEDs dying out quickly mainly due to overheating?
I kind of feel like I'm building a new computer comparison shopping for all these parts lol
Hey Killkingkong:
First of all I got a response from Cooler Master. The Hyper 101i is rated for 70W at 200mA. So you'll probably run a little hot with 100W on it, although, again, I'm not sure how efficient the Cree's are, etc. I still think it's cutting it close and that there are other coolers only slightly more expensive which can do a much better job.
That LED you found doesn't really have a built in heat sink (w/o any type of cooling that 100W LED would burn to a crisp), that's just a "slug" that the chips are all mounted onto which acts as a medium to transfer thermal energy from the chips to the heat sink. You'd use thermal grease/silicone/plaster/epoxy/etc. to bond the actual heat sink to the LED slug.
As for underclocking the LED I don't have much of an issue with this. The only thing I can say against it really is unless the driver you buy @ 90W is cheaper than one @ 100W you'll be paying the same dollar amount for less light. I plan to buy a custom spectrum 100W chip and mate it with a 120W driver. It's just two different perspectives. Underdriving the LED's will increase their life even if you ran them at the same temperature as full power.
If you missed the link I posted:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Warm-W...292?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257869085c
That's a pretty good price for the bundle.
$57 free shipping for LED and LED driver (driver rated at 90W-108W)
$25 free shipping for SNK-P0035AP4
Leaves $18 for a power cord and wall wart for the fan if you don't already have the stuff lying around the house (12VDC @ 150mA-200mA)
$100 for 100Watts
Not bad.
Random tip: If you find an unused extension or power cord to use I like to cut the plug from the rest of the cord with maybe 4-5" left, then the rest of the cord can be soldered to the LED tabs on one end and the driver output wires on the other. This allows you to remotely place the driver away from the heat sink, probably outside the tent near the power strip, or digital timer.
Second random tip:
http://www.amazon.com/Wago-222-412-LEVER-NUTS-Conductor-Connectors/dp/B003T0PUH6/ref=pd_sbs_indust_6
Those are siiick. I bought a pack of those when I was making my supplemental panels and absolutely fell in love with them. I'm just running out now after having made five light sources (probably enough for one or two more). No soldering except the LED itself. If you ask the seller to solder a couple color coded wires onto the LED tabs then you could easily get away without having to solder anything. It really grips the wires, too, it's a solid, durable connection that can withstand a really good amount of tugging (I haven't had a wire come undone on me yet and don't expect one to).
Edit - Man, I really don't wanna say all that again, lol. Maybe a "Home Made Spotlight /w Multichip LED" sticky is in order.
First of all I got a response from Cooler Master. The Hyper 101i is rated for 70W at 200mA. So you'll probably run a little hot with 100W on it, although, again, I'm not sure how efficient the Cree's are, etc. I still think it's cutting it close and that there are other coolers only slightly more expensive which can do a much better job.
That LED you found doesn't really have a built in heat sink (w/o any type of cooling that 100W LED would burn to a crisp), that's just a "slug" that the chips are all mounted onto which acts as a medium to transfer thermal energy from the chips to the heat sink. You'd use thermal grease/silicone/plaster/epoxy/etc. to bond the actual heat sink to the LED slug.
As for underclocking the LED I don't have much of an issue with this. The only thing I can say against it really is unless the driver you buy @ 90W is cheaper than one @ 100W you'll be paying the same dollar amount for less light. I plan to buy a custom spectrum 100W chip and mate it with a 120W driver. It's just two different perspectives. Underdriving the LED's will increase their life even if you ran them at the same temperature as full power.
If you missed the link I posted:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Warm-W...292?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257869085c
That's a pretty good price for the bundle.
$57 free shipping for LED and LED driver (driver rated at 90W-108W)
$25 free shipping for SNK-P0035AP4
Leaves $18 for a power cord and wall wart for the fan if you don't already have the stuff lying around the house (12VDC @ 150mA-200mA)
$100 for 100Watts
Not bad.
Random tip: If you find an unused extension or power cord to use I like to cut the plug from the rest of the cord with maybe 4-5" left, then the rest of the cord can be soldered to the LED tabs on one end and the driver output wires on the other. This allows you to remotely place the driver away from the heat sink, probably outside the tent near the power strip, or digital timer.
Second random tip:
http://www.amazon.com/Wago-222-412-LEVER-NUTS-Conductor-Connectors/dp/B003T0PUH6/ref=pd_sbs_indust_6
Those are siiick. I bought a pack of those when I was making my supplemental panels and absolutely fell in love with them. I'm just running out now after having made five light sources (probably enough for one or two more). No soldering except the LED itself. If you ask the seller to solder a couple color coded wires onto the LED tabs then you could easily get away without having to solder anything. It really grips the wires, too, it's a solid, durable connection that can withstand a really good amount of tugging (I haven't had a wire come undone on me yet and don't expect one to).
Edit - Man, I really don't wanna say all that again, lol. Maybe a "Home Made Spotlight /w Multichip LED" sticky is in order.
Killkingkong
Active member
It looks like that Cree LED puts out about 75w of heat and the other 25 watts are used for lighting, so with that after market fan it "should" be good enough.
On another note, in a pc grow box 1 of those 100w lights with 2 of these (http://dx.com/p/6958-diy-10w-3000k-...79?rt=1&p=2&m=2&r=3&k=1&t=1&s=142032&u=162179) 10w LED strips as supplemental lighting would make for a great micro grow.
On another note, in a pc grow box 1 of those 100w lights with 2 of these (http://dx.com/p/6958-diy-10w-3000k-...79?rt=1&p=2&m=2&r=3&k=1&t=1&s=142032&u=162179) 10w LED strips as supplemental lighting would make for a great micro grow.
