NPK and ACT help me clear up the myth?

[moses wellfleet]

after being persuaded by these boards to move away from bottled nutes and use ACT i have achieved some excellent results. the impression i took away from here was: amend my soil to supply the nutes, bone meal, kelp meal etc. and water with ACT to provide the microbial activity that will make the nutes available.

i got the impression from some posts on here that once you start using ACT then you forget about NPK.

2 years down the line i now believe that if you want to achieve maximum yield amending soil from the beginning is not enough. so i have been feeding seabird guano and extra fish hyrdolysate and liquid kelp to supplement the NPK and raise the nute levels. i am also not convinced that bone meal and volanic rock dust are available after a 2 month period even with ' pre cooking'.

would like to hear other opinions out there?

 

[OrganicOzarks]

Adds some guano to your brews, and you will be good.

 

[huarmiquilla]

howdy moses wellfleet

how you do?

respect
am tickled pink with joy you are to enjoy tea with respect to microbe
thank you to share such success with respect to transition

one perspective am keen to relate perhap you to enjoy guano tea at when you desire such input
similar am keen to topdress such guano and various form to energy
such and such rock dust volcano and glacier, green sand, and such and such

rather not to forget NPK, perhap forget common technique with respect to application to input
at which form to input
one perspective
within organic am keen to think grow soil and energy within soil
cannabis and symbiotic relationship within soil for create nutrient flow betwen soil energy and plant energy

such buffer for thinks with respect to NPK
indeed much within environment and variable within to create unique example to illustrate

within organic community, such knowledge ancient am keen to think

am keen to most much variety within input to soil and tea brew
such and such for perhap sybmiotic relationship with respect to specimen and variety

am keen to ask you opinion to dry kelp and liquid kelp to supplement?
indeed each unique to application within garden, am keen to each with bias indeed

fish unique scent....hehehe
lovely fish and sea for garden indeed

are you to experience more terpene and scent within you garden with respect to more organic and tea technique?

respect
thank you to share

positive vibrations

 

[OldSSSCGuy]

Indoors or out? If indoors what container size and crop cycle? If you're running cuttings in 2 gal container of amended soil and water every couple of days, you can build a fine mix which needs little else. But if you're running from seed in 5-7 gallon pots and the plant stays in that same pot for 4 months and doing daily watering - then additives are probably going to be needed. Seabird guanos like PSG are supposed to be a "general purpose" fertilizer and best used for veggie growth. Fossilized bat guanos are better for flowering but require more time to break down.

To me its all relative. Relative to the size/quantity of soil, the term the plant is in that soil, and the stage of growth the plant is in.

 

[OrganicBuds]

For extra nutes I like to use The Rev's method of adding spikes in my soil during transplants.

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

Moses- I'm a little confused as to what the actual question is?

Are you asking - Whether or not a water only soil mix will produce more/less than a mix that requires ACT teas, a little guano, and some fish?

If so I don't think it really matters as long as the plant is happy. I don't use bone meal and I believe the volcanic rock dust is use more for a recycled mix. Personally I've found it much easier to use teas instead of going overboard with all kinds of amendments. I feel like I have more control that way. I'm sure you know it's no fun placing a clone in a soil mix that is too hot.

 

[3gunpete]

Big up Moses, yes a little iffy on what u gwanna kno, but me like to help.

In general as stated ur limiting factors are time and size as stated already. How big container and how long you vegging?

Down same road I have been. U already kno and said it yourself tho.. IMHO, start with real good across the board soil amendment as I'm sure u already doin. Use tea as back up and addition.
Using guanos for NPK is killer but after 3-4 weeks most of what your putting in the soil should be burning out.
It is my opinion that act teas will prolong your amended soil batch but not sustain the growth we are looking to achieve. I have heard all the hype about letting the micro life do the work and feed for you. I just don't c that as a stand alone substitute for a good fertile soil.

Furthermore IMHO they should be used in symbiosis. To compliment each other. I don't tell many people my secret to navigating around depletion issues but it's to simply transplant up every 3-4 four weeks. I'm sure I'm not first to think of it. But I swear by it and don't c myself doing it any other way.

Unless maybe if it wer a doomsday sinerio or something when we'd have to source only local ammendments. Then I would go back to balancing all kinds of shit that breaks down or becomes available at all different times. That works and can be great but IMHO is way to hard to be consistent as well as bulky time consuming and messy.
So... Now I use fast acting organic nutes with plenty of all the micro and macros amended into my base mix and transplant monthly. Super ez and never have any issues.
Only issue is late in flowering for extra hungry varieties or never ending sativas. Teas are bond!! Top dressing with compost worm compost or guano is just as good. I'm personally not a fan of spikes, but some swear by that too.

Ur obviously right on point with where I'm at. Making strives for the best of what our flowers allow. But keep that in mind my friend, there is only so much certain strains will provide. Judging from some of your pics u close to maxin things out. Big ups! Eventually you get it absolutely dialed in for a particular strain but if u are growing different all the time it is always changing, ja kno?

 

[bajangreen]

i got one point i always found intresting.

My act shows a reading of 0 for no2 and no3 but the soil gives a reading.

 

[moses wellfleet]

It is my opinion that act teas will prolong your amended soil batch but not sustain the growth we are looking to achieve. I have heard all the hype about letting the micro life do the work and feed for you. I just don't c that as a stand alone substitute for a good fertile soil.

Thank you 3gunpete this is my point exactly. the question is are there many other people out there who would agree with this?

there may be people out there who disagree and rely purely on amendments mixed into the soil at the beginning. i would like to hear this side of the debate as well and what the advantage of that method might be?

i am not trying to get into the debate about bottled nutes. i dont use any branded bottled nutreints!

 

[hayday]

After a few cycles with my soil,I make another mix just like the first.As my old soil comes back to be recycled,I intigrate old and new 50/50.
I also add live worms to the old mix and they breed like mad as they aid in removing the old roots.This seems to work well and I pretty much use A.C.T. through veg and maybe at intro to flower.Then water only.
I put a small amount of Mexican Bat Guano into my A.C.T.and molassas.
I haven't changed out my soil in 3 years or so.It's all black and stickyI disreguard NPK after the initial mix of fresh soil.
Mix is...
1.5 c.f. premium potting soil.
10 # ewc
Perlite
IcupMexican Bat G
1 cup Indonisian Bat G
I cup Bone
1/2 cup blood
1 cup kelp
1/4 cup alfalfa
Greensand
1Cup Dolamite lime
Mycorhizze(new thing to me from Promix)
I used to use alot more tea but I cut it throughout flower.This might not help in your query but thats what I do
All the best to ya...

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

Thank you 3gunpete this is my point exactly. the question is are there many other people out there who would agree with this?

there may be people out there who disagree and rely purely on amendments mixed into the soil at the beginning. i would like to hear this side of the debate as well and what the advantage of that method might be?

i am not trying to get into the debate about bottled nutes. i dont use any branded bottled nutreints!

One tremendous advantage of relying on the amendments in the soil, is that by simply transplanting into a larger container, a plant can be maintained by a relatively novice grower. I had a few patients that did this successfully with very little knowledge. As they get more comfortable, they start using teas mainly alfalfa/kelp, and now they are able to see any actual differences.

When we use ACT teas with kelp, alfalfa and EWC we are providing some NPK. But mainly what we are trying to accomplish is providing the soil with an abundant, diverse microlife, which in turn provides the plant with good ole NPK. The more microlife means the more NPK that becomes available.

That being said, a healthy living soil will have no real need for ACT teas, given the plant is in an adequate sized pot.

Peace
RD

 

[Gascanastan]

I rarely use ACT anymore during cycles....unless I've re-amended the soil and need to introduce 'workers' to get to work on that food. Nutrients are stored in the bodies of organisms and released when they poop....or they get eaten and become poop. Food chain stuff...predator/prey relationships on a microscopic level. Every second organisms die and release nutrients for other life forms to use......and every second they continue to multiply if food is available.

 

[bajangreen]

There is a limit to the amount of micro life your soil can carry. I think the normal amount of micro life found in average soil is no where near as high as a soil treated with act.

 

[Microbeman]

I can't believe that after all this time, nobody has a clue how ACT (microorganisms) behaves in the rhyzosphere. No matter how good your mix is, does not make it a living soil.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

It's easier to spread FUD, Stoner Science and general misinformation......

 

[SeaMaiden]

i got one point i always found intresting.

My act shows a reading of 0 for no2 and no3 but the soil gives a reading.

Really? What method/test/kit are you using? I find that fascinating. Also, is there an initial source specifically of NH4 going into the ACT?

High moses! I like to use ACT as a microbial inoculant more so than a feed, I mix up feeds separately. However, I can't say that mine are really proper ACTs, because I use a combination of aquarium pump (higher capacity, but nothing like one of those EcoPlus models) and stirring/agitation to gain some O2 saturation when making my microbial soups.

It also helps me to think of ACT and feeding as two different goals. With ACT, I'm culturing microbes, very much like what I'm doing when I'm making yogurt, or yeast-risen breads, or starting an aquarium. I want to grow microbes. They do need food and in this case it's food the plant also uses, in a symbiotic dance going back and forth. However, since what I'm after in culturing them (the poop/effluent, if you will) ultimately becomes food, I like to have that food already in place for them, in the soil.

However, during their growth phases, that food becomes unavailable to the plants for a period. This always seems to be especially apparent to me in small containers (as opposed to growing directly in the ground or in raised beds outdoors), and so additional, readily plant-available feeds often also must be offered. I have not made an indoor soil mix that is so rich that it didn't require some additional feeds, here and there at least, and for some while have not used soil indoors, only outdoors (coir for indoors).

I have no idea if that's helped you at all. I use soil food web methods intensively outdoors, not at all indoors, and my indoor has been shut down for 2yrs during family stuff, and I was using coir and will go back to coir likely, since I find like the performance. I may experiment with soil using the food web as best I can mimic it inside sometime, but I'll have to have the extra electricity to make it anything resembling worthwhile.

 

[Microbeman]

When one makes ACT, the bacteria/archaea (BA), fungi and protozoa which are bound to the compost or vermicompost (VC) are extracted or broken loose. These are the microorganisms which have worked to form the VC (humus) which you are using and many of them carry the nutrients (NPK) which can ultimately feed plants.

Because the ACT maker is providing extra food (lets say black strap molasses; BSM) and dissolved oxygen, the BA begin multiplying in response (doubling approximately every 10 to 25 minutes) and fungal hyphae begins growing. As the population of BA expands they consume, not only the BSM but also nutrients (NPK) sequestered in the VC and often the fungal hyphae which is growing.

In response to all this BA growth going on, the protozoa begin to divide (doubling approximately every 2 hours) because they live by eating BA. Now, here comes the important part. When a protozoa consumes BA it only requires 30% to 40% of that energy (NPK/ATP) to sustain itself. The other 60% to 70% energy (NPK) is discharged (pooped if you like) in a form (ionic) directly available to the roots of the plants. [For a plant to derive these nutrients on its own by exuding organic acids >hydrogen, it spends much more ATP]

This means that ACT has taken a substantial amount of the nutrients (NPK) stored in the VC + the nutrients from the BSM and set in motion the mechanics necessary for those nutrients (NPK) to be taken up by the roots of the plants. If the plants do not want or require some forms of these nutrients, they are simply rapidly re-sequestered in the form of microbial cysts, fungal hyphae, other BA, as cations or anions bound to organic matter or humus.

There is some bonus in that, if present, fungal hyphae will continue to grow, providing aggregation of soil particles and degradation of raw organic matter and if required, active helper BA which support and protect root systems, fix N, etc.

There is no huge overpopulation of microorganisms which some people seem to be conjuring up. [so long as the person making ACT has not created some pathogenic monster]. One is not randomly dumping a bunch of microbes in the soil any more than if using a sprouted seed (malt) tea. (etc.)

There is some attribute or value in ACT used to inoculate soil with a set of microorganisms but if the soil is lacking a healthy microbial population, this can take quite some time. Soil is not living soil based upon what ingredients you have used, rather it is based upon the hierarchy of life forms occupying it ‘over time’ which includes microorganisms.

In this fashion one can choose to use ACT regularly as a nutrient (NPK) source.

What I have written is not the complete story. It is my opinion based on study and experience. There are many facets to nutrient uptake, some unknown. I just don’t have the time to write it all out so I’m just addressing what I consider most pertinent to this discussion.

 

[3gunpete]

Here come the micro nazis, hehe.
But no, u guys kno ur shit, not trying to go there..

Although I'm not sure why you take yourselv's so seriously. Lighten up a little not everyone is on your level of excellence. Cheers!
That's kind of what this thread is about anyway. More opinion and general discussion of experience if I'm correct. And even tho not all of us are micro/bio engineers most of us do grasp the concept u put forth. Keep in mind there are very many shades of grey. Different strokes for different folks. And if something particular works for someone, that's all that really matters.
Personally I never achieved the full spectrum of benifits in regards to what a true living soil is all about. So I lean on organic additives. And inoculate with act. But I don't use a scope either. So it's just guess work. Ja kno

Lmao!! I just read your last post microb. Pretty much said what I just posted about at the end of your dissertation. Hehe, nothin but love people. Live and love

 

[SeaMaiden]

Ok, I'm a little confused now, because I think I've been thinking of what I've been doing in the wrong way. Although... ultimately, or fundamentally, does my conceptualization really matter?

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

I can't believe that after all this time, nobody has a clue how ACT (microorganisms) behaves in the rhyzosphere. No matter how good your mix is, does not make it a living soil.

MM- Thank you for your posts. If you will excuse me, I'm having a hard time understanding your post above.

Am I wrong to believe that by incorporating high quality vermicompost into my soil mix it will make my soil 'alive' with bacteria, fungi, and protozoa?

Of course proper temperature and moisture levels must be maintained.

Just want to learn more.

Edit: Hey man, if my previous post was misinformed please let me know.