Child Services Can't Remove Kids for Parental Medical Marijuana Use, Court Says

[Hydro-Soil]

Im pretty old and can count on one hand the number of times cps has shown up at my door or my friends(all over the usa). Just sayin.

Yep... I remember those days.

Let's see (just me and mine... not counting what I've personally seen happen to other families)...

Rambunctious boy child, autistic, accident prone. Turned in for investigation of abuse by the hospital. WTF??

Straight up lies fed to cps by family member of no contact, proven false yet still shows up in the 'file'. Ooooh... that's 2 counts.

(that's two separate states)

Landlord issue, cps called again, situation proven to be false... STILL in the case file... OH LOOK!! THEY HAVE 2 PRIORS!!! THEY MUST BE BAD!

(edit: That's not even the half of it... but I'll stop there)

But hey... I don't know anything about the system... I don't sit behind a desk or visit people, I live it and are around the families this has happened to.

As for your advice to change the people I hang out with??
WHEN THE FUCK HAS BEING POOR BEEN A BAD THING? HMMM??

You don't see the world the way the families do. Period. Never will until you've been on the other side.

Ok... I'm off my soap box.

Stay Safe!

 

[Rainman]

Hydro - No need to go all agro buddy. I got a sneaky feeling your anger has more to do with your issues than anything else but hey keep blaming the gov. As for the family member, no agency in the world can protect you from every crazy family member, sadly not even cps(I know I tried!!). As for your "record", yes anytime you have a referral made it stays in the system whether proven or not. It shows a history of the allegations and a resolution. The cops would have seen that and with the landlords complaints prolly gotten very interested in your situation. Now, I have to remind you that each state is a stand alone entity and the cps agencies would not have any way of knowing what happened in other states. Only the cops can do that. Now this can be a good thing or bad. If your child had been hurt or something way worse, this would be a instance where the system works. Right? In your case it sounds to me like you are paying for those unfounded allegations being there. That sucks but you can see why it is set up that way, dont you?

As a family man with a kid of my own, I most def see it the way families do. I would do anything to protect my baby and I got the guns to prove it! That statement is you assuming you know more than you actually do about me.See how that goes both ways? I have family that are dirtbags and in prison as well as some really wealthy well to do family. Either way i have been on both sides and it is you who have only seen it from one point of view.

As for being poor, welcome to the club my friend. That doesnt make you bad! Just cooler than most like me!!!

 

[Useful Idiot]

Am I the only one that has picked out the fact that Rainman, who works for the system and is an admitted pot smoker AND grower has a child of his own actually is attempting to give advice.Also as a social worker I am sure you tell folks that marijuana is bad mmmmmmk.Hmmmm. How would you like it Rainman if someone gave a tip about you??? I am pretty sure you would not enjoy losing your child,job ,ect. I am just sayin. Furthermore ,I used to work for CPS but in another way. I was in charge of maintenance,elec,boilers for the buildings,plumbing ect. I will tell ya this. There are a bunch of folks that work there that are growers,smokers,and have children. But yet act like people who use marijuana are bad parents.WTF??????Holier than thou.BUT I will have to agree with Rainman on some of his points. IT IS A TOUGH CALL!!! I mean there are some smokers who have the ability to be great parents. Then there are the parents that smoke that are just downright animals. It has NOTHING to do with the smoking....they are just animals regardless.Reap what ya sow.

 

[Useful Idiot]

BTW, false allegations regardin child abuse/neglect just to be an ass, is a crime. There are cases documented of hostile parents during divorce,and nasty neighbors making claims of abuse to be vindictive....were actually charged. Google it.

 

[Rainman]

Useful - Valid points on several points. I am a grower, a parents , and a heavy smoker but its all done within the laws of my state and county. Look we all different personalities and thus such react differently to diff situations when presented with it. Holier than thou types are in every facet of our society not just my building. As for losing my job or child. The job can go in a second but if I had to give up growing and smoking for my baby, you better believe it wouldnt be a hard choice to make at all. I enjoy smoking and the lifestyle that Cali offers when it comes to mj but nothing compares my babys face when dadda walks thru the door. I dont live in the what ifs but if someone turned me in I have
absolutely nothing to hide as far as my baby or MMJ goes. Just being honest here, I know more parent smokers than non smokers and most have never had any issues with cps.

Your second post is called parental alienation and has recently been successfully argued in the courts as a actual issue that parets visit upon each other while battling for kids and going through divorces. We see it alot where all of a sudden one parent will have several refferrals regarding a child where there had previously been none. Only to find out that the other parent convinced some loser to call on the child's behalf "confidentially" with concerns of abuse or neglect. Doesnt take long to put that together in these cases either. Parenst really are often times their childs and their own worst enemy.

 

[Banefoul]

i think it funny rainman thinks cannabis is harmful in questioning what i call harm.

 

[tenthirty]

Lebensborn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

 

[rives]

Here you go, Rainman. In the county that I live in (not the one in the link), CPS is so notoriously out of control that there was a Grand Jury investigation into their conduct. Ronnie Reagunzapp said it best - "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

http://www.newsreview.com/chico/fighting-for-their-families/content?oid=5513249&fb_source=message

 

[greenmatter]

would anyone want to do Rainman's job? does anybody really think that we don't need CPS? read the fucking papers folks

there are how many shows on animal planet who follow the animal control police around? how many minutes do you have to watch before you want to throw up? do you really think that you could you handle watching an episode of "CPS Dallas" ?

i'm 100% sure that CPS fucked up in this specific case!!! and i am sure that the rest of the machine does not run smooth, but saying that they are not needed, or implying that they do damage 90% of the time is bullshit

i have family who does the "victims advocacy" thing ........ she does not earn a paycheck and she really does not have any power, but she sees every day why groups like CPS got started

humans are pretty fuckin' inhumane

 

[Hydro-Soil]

As for your "record", yes anytime you have a referral made it stays in the system whether proven or not. It shows a history of the allegations and a resolution.

There is no 'innocence' in the system. Period.

You are guilty until proven guilty.

Don't care how you try to spin it so you can sleep at night... WE live in the reality, you live in denial.

CPS is only needed because this country doesn't value education, honesty and family values. Without those... yes, people suck and do terrible things to each other. This country has devolved to a terrible state. However, CPS is NOT a solution, not by ANY stretch of the imagination.

When a machine is broken and starts spitting chips of metal everywhere... you don't hire people to 'contain' all the chips, hiring more as more chips are thrown by the failing machine. YOU FIX THE MACHINE.

CPS is a bunch of people trying to fix damage done by a busted machine. Well intentioned... yes, but pointless without fixing the underlying issue.

Here you go, Rainman. In the county that I live in (not the one in the link), CPS is so notoriously out of control that there was a Grand Jury investigation into their conduct. Ronnie Reagunzapp said it best - "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Yeah... sounds like what needs to be done here in this country as well. Good luck with that though...

Stay Safe!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

If your child had been hurt or something way worse, this would be a instance where the system works. Right?

Missed this little gem the first go 'round.

This is a clear indication of how deep your programming goes. You just keep eating everything they feed you. This is the same crap they feed cops about speeders. Exactly the same.

The level of collateral damage created by CPS on the innocent is just as devastating, if not more, than the damage "prevented" in your "success" cases.

I guess it just depends on where you live. Where I currently live, the local socialists believe anyone on food stamps 'must' be doing meth. F'ing, programmed, socialist, non-thinking retards. *sigh*

That's changing though... cannabis is legal here now and I'll be doing my part. The faster this spreads, the faster kids will be in a whole lot less danger.

Stay Safe!

 

[greenmatter]

Missed this little gem the first go 'round.

This is a clear indication of how deep your programming goes. You just keep eating everything they feed you. This is the same crap they feed cops about speeders. Exactly the same.

The level of collateral damage created by CPS on the innocent is just as devastating, if not more, than the damage "prevented" in your "success" cases.

I guess it just depends on where you live. Where I currently live, the local socialists believe anyone on food stamps 'must' be doing meth. F'ing, programmed, socialist, non-thinking retards. *sigh*

That's changing though... cannabis is legal here now and I'll be doing my part. The faster this spreads, the faster kids will be in a whole lot less danger.

Stay Safe!

yo hydro, by now you should know that i hate the government as bad as anyone here. i can see why you hate CPS, and you have sure as hell earned the right to feel that way. i'm not trying to argue with you, but how would you go about fixing the system?

we all know there are people who should not even have pets but they have kids .......... those folks are what CPS is there for

how do you find a balance between helping kids who REALLY need help and not doing any harm to the people who have not done anything wrong? <<< if anybody could really answer that one we could solve some issues, but it is a question without a solid answer ......... to many variables

 

[honeyoil]

I have been effected by CPS in Michigan. My experiences are that they create situations to justify their jobs. They act like your friend, then use the information gained against you, if they can. They feel justified in taking children from parents. And I'm not talking about truly abused kids.
RainMan, it is people like you in government positions that scare the shit out of me. You are so self righteous and positive that CPS does good. When presented with evidence, you blow it off. I think 10 to 1 is low. CPS destroys families, more than not. Ask any family lawyer. How many families have you destroyed in the past 20 years?

 

[Rainman]

baneful - Back with more witty banter I see. Can you please show me where I said MJ was harmful. I mean if you are gonna participate do so with relevent info or some facts please.

Tenthirty - Dumbest comparison so far but keep tryin to equate nazis with cps. Thats rational. Not.

Rives - Glad you posted that!! I started my career in butt county and I can tell one thing about the article that they left out. The pair of winners in the story(Bram and Walsh) are well known in the county and have had more run in with cps than the story informs you on. Lets say if they were convicts their 3 strikes woulda been up long ago. Also they are known for something else Butt county if famous for in the hills and it ait MMJ!! Are there overzealous cps workers out there? Hell yes! Are we all like that? Come on now. Show me the successes! Where are those outrageous stories of wildly successful people who left the system? Whats outa control is the meth production!! Again yes there are mistake made but look at the numbers of kids helped vs storis like this.

Hydro - I sleep great at nite so no worries. You obviously did some shady shit and now wanna blame the gov for your fuck up. I didnt wanna come out and say it that raw but you dont seem to get it. If you have had this many issues with cps its not the gov out to get you but its "you"!! Nothing to do with being poor just a poor parent! So stop laming the system and start blaming all the shitty parents out tere. Without them we wouldnt be needed. Would we? You are sooo ready to blame the government for your prob but cant look in the mirror and see where you are responsible for your opwn actions. I love broke republican types like you. You wanna blame anyone but yourself for your probs but that way of thinking goes against your libertarian conservative agenda. So yet another issue you are uninformed on but cant see the forest for the trees. Stay safe.

Oh part 2! Collateral damge? Man you are seriously outa touch with reality. Socialist? Again the gov is not your problem, you are. Take some responisibility for your choices and stop blaming easy targets of your frustration.

 

[Rainman]

Honey - The shitty things parents do to their children is what justifies the job, not me creating situations. When I remove a child it not cause you and I are fake friends its justfied because you let your kid sleep with your friends, dont feed them, hit them like you would a dog, let them live in filth, and generally act like they are property that you can do what you want to with.

If im self righteous then so be it! I know I am helping vulnerable little people who have no voice and are prisoners in their own families. Ive been presented with no evidence that would lead me to believe anything other than sensational news sales. Show me what this country would look like without CPS vs with it. You only have to go back a few decades to before child labor laws were enacted to see what parents do with their children when given free reign. You have no clue my friend. You sound like another repub conservo bitter as all get out at the gov who you have declared an enemy cause a old white guy isnt running the county. Wallow in it and enjoy the next 4 years or more.

Cps destroys familie more than not? You are drinkin tha koolaid.

Peaceout folks gotta go steal some kids and screw up lives on behalf of the evil government!!

 

[rives]

Rainman, while I would never say that CPS hurts more kids than they help, there are indeed huge problems with them. "Show me the successes"? Successes are supposed to be their job, and there are certainly many cases where the kids desperately need to be pulled out of the situation that they find themselves in. However, removing kids from their home should be considered to be a tool of last resort, and only utilized where there is reasonably clear evidence that they are in an ugly situation. It frequently seems to be the reverse here - pull the kids and demand that the parents prove a negative, which is impossible. Oh, and I've never been on the wrong side of them - my wife is a teacher, and even the teachers don't like what they see going on in this county.

Regarding tweakers, I've seen some that were actually pretty good parents. If you are going to reflexively pull kids out of houses where the parents have some involvement with meth, you are going to empty a huge portion of the homes in rural NorCal. As much as I hate that shit, it is epidemic.

I wouldn't have your job for all the money in the world, but being right more often than you are wrong is simply not acceptable when dealing with the power to destroy families. There are many, many jobs where being right the majority of the time isn't acceptable, and this is one of them.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

Home school your kids, and keep the likes of rainman out of your life.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Seamaiden - What im saying is the article doesnt have the facts since it is always confidential information when the agency gets the call. Especially since it came from a blogr named "tha Snitch!!"!! Not even a real story I would assume.That information never leaves the agency and does not even make it into court reports/police reports. Only way to make people feel secure about reporting what they see without fear of retribution. If it is found that a case is based off lies and false information the info is then passed on to police to have the say so in going after the accuser.

The article can certainly have all the facts as presented in court. This man was taken to court, fought, and won on appeal. All of that is a matter of public record unless the judge orders the documents sealed. The information about the minors is typically withheld, redacted, what-have-you. But, since you're calling into question the very veracity of the report itself, let me see what I can find outside this one article. Fair enough?

Again SM you have experience in the system but not as part of it. Any chilc left in the home during an investigsation is done so after the social worker has determined that the child is not in any immediate danger. The reason is that the level of neglect does not go to such a level to remove.

You're supposing quite a lot here. You've also missed the main issue, what's at the heart of this whole thing based on the article we're discussing, and that is the fact that the stated premise for removal of the child was solely Paul M's status as a MMJ patient. That's it. You then went on to mention rape victims, which is in my mind a direct comparison of MMJ users (parents and grandparents, I am both) to rapists. It's not a stretch, it's what you said.

This is done in cases where a child has missed weeks of school, lives in a dirty/filthy home, there are some parenting issues that need to be worked on, etc... In those types of cases the neglect is not so severe as to remove and parents are offered support in fixing what is going on.

Did you read the article? At this point I have to ask that, because you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I've reported, non-anonymously, on parents who neglect and abuse their children. I've been retaliated against for doing so, but I believe in changing a child's diapers more often than once a day, just for an example.

I did not compare rapists and MMJ users although good try in trying to go there. I was comparing victims.

Are you trying to keep it in context here, though? Seriously. If you're going to compare the child of a MMJ user to a rape victim, you *are* comparing MMJ users to rapists!

In this case kids and rape victims. As someone involved in the system on some level you there are times when it absolutely is comparable since many of the kids in question are actually rape victims!

Do you advocate removing children from the care of homosexuals? I'm really beginning to wonder about your line of reasoning here. On what basis do you compare this child and his living situation, as reported in the article we're discussing, to a rape victim? We're not talking about other parents or situations where there is clearly neglect, we're talking very specifically about this one situation.

Now when it comes to children being removed and the returned again it is at the level where the child is in immediate danger, right now. If the parent corrects the defeciency then the child is given back. A parents who has 200 dogs living in their doublewide creates a immediate and direct danger to the child and would need to be removed. Remove the dogs and clean up a bit and yes the child would be returned. I personally handled a case like this a few weeks ago. Yes it was over 200 dogs!

And that is *not* comparable to a parent or grandparent being a MMJ patient! Oh. My. GOD. How, pray tell, is cannabis use comparable to this scenario?

If you are paying attention then you also know that 99% of those in the field are doing a job they love cause they love kids, they dont make shit($), and rarely have authority issues. They simply want to help kids be safe. You also know that they are horribly overworked and abuses being directed at kids are only resolved if people stay involved and paying attention. And lastly you and I both know that 98% of those with MMJ cards have no medical need for it at all and simply want to avoid prosecution by leo.

I know this, but I also know how ignorant and misguided many are and can be.

Let's move onto your second assertion about MMJ users. Let's say that you're right, that literally 98% have no need, which not only is a hell of an assertion to make, but doesn't jive with my experience. Let's say that they just don't want to get into legal trouble. What's wrong with that? Based on your argument, I think that you might be one of those folks who says that any cannabis use is wrong, for any reason, but especially if it's <gasp!> around the children! That's like getting freaked out if kids see dogs screwing. Seriously? It's part of life and the act in and of itself is not harmful. Period.

I would ask you this though, say you hit that joint and then(heaven forbid) you dropped you grandbaby or gave him the wrong meds??

Are you kidding me?

I'm a MMJ user for a reason. That doesn't mean I didn't like pot before I actually needed to use it. It means that I'm a patient because I have reason. That reason pretty much disallowed me carrying my grandchild for any period of time. What then? She walked, so what? It's good for kids to walk. Messing up medications? How many high people have you been around, anyway? Drunk I can see that happening, but weed? Especially a regular user like myself, which, if you knew much about MMJ users, you would know don't really get high once we hit a certain tolerance level (ever read the threads from folks who are upset because they're not getting high anymore?). So, a hit off a joint causing me to drop my grandchild is laughable at best.

Are you not a danger to the child? What if you just took a nap and let the kid run around unsupervised for a lil while? So many grey areas with all this and most have not been resolved by entities involved in making the laws on both sides.

An adult can trip and fall on a kid. That's technically a danger to the child. What now? What do you think I did with my kids during one of my migraines, back before Proposition 215 was passed, before I knew cannabis had any medicinal properties at all? I certainly couldn't kennel them. We coped, that's what we did.

I'm really wondering what a person like you is doing in a place like this, but I'd like to inform you of something--simply using cannabis does not make someone a danger to children.

GM - You are right on most of what you say here. Yes there are times when a huge statewide entity fucks up. I assume everyone here has a job and at one point did something they shouldnt have. Is it 10 to 1? Hell no? The story is made to charge up the reader and get people mad. Problem is that the source is just a guy on his computer. I have helped kids my whole life and love the job.

Actually... not only did this guy sign his name, he provided a link for the story that got him to write about it, as well as a PDF of the court's ruling. Which I'm sitting here looking at right now. You've got some back-pedaling to do on this one, Rainman. The story, as reported in The Snitch, is accurate.

First page of the court's ruling:

Filed 12/5/12
CERTIFIED FOR PUBLICATION IN THE COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
SECOND APPELLATE DISTRICT
DIVISION THREE

Paul M. (father) appeals from a judgment declaring his child to be a dependent of the court based on the trial court‘s finding that father‘s usage of medical marijuana placed the child at substantial risk of serious physical harm or illness pursuant to Welfare and Institutions Code1 section 300, subdivision (b), 2 and ordering him to randomly test for drugs and to participate in parenting courses and drug counseling. 3 He contends that the evidence was insufficient to support the trial court‘s finding. He also contends that the trial court‘s orders based on such finding constitute an abuse of discretion. Father seeks to reverse the judgment as to the jurisdictional finding against him and to vacate the orders based on such finding. We conclude that father is correct and, accordingly, we will reverse the judgment in part and reverse the orders as to him.

You should click on some links and read the actual ruling for yourself.

 

[Rainman]

Rives - Ohhh thank you sooo much for your post!! So I am here actually debating people who think crankster gansters can be good parents!! No wonder there is so much animosity towards what I do!! Thank you again for that. It simply re-enforces my diligence in doing what I do. As for successes, you wont here about that from the snitch or any paper I know of because that doesnt sell papers or ads. Kids aren't pulled for any arbitrary reason man. You know how hard it is for a child to be removed?I ts not a one or even two person decision and is always a last resort. But again, im debating someone who thinks tweekers can be decent parents.

SM - You seem to know more about the subject than most so you know that minor files are always sealed and confidential to protect.....the kids, not keep info from reporters/public. I never said that MMJ users should ave their children taken(I happen to be one with kids, hello!!) What im saying is you dont have all the facts. Period and I would bet there was more to it than just MMJ. What im saying about victims is that we dont leave rape victims with possible perps and the same goes for kids(who happen to be victims) You are missing the point. If I am on a call and there is an allegation of sexual abuse to a 5yr old by a family member. Do I leave that child in the home if there is priliminary evidence to support it? Or do I put that child in protective custody while the investigation completed? You see immediate danger vs something like a dirty home. Homosexuality has nothing to do with it and doesnt factor at all unless the child is being sexually exploited in some way. But good try. Talk about reaching.

As far a MMJ goes, yeah I do believe that its a farce and that citizens should be allowed to do as they choose in their own homes with cannabis. Period. So yes its a joke because like I said most are just trying to avoid being arrested for something that is less harmful than alcohol. And yes people get stoned and fall all the time with their babys, or fall asleep with their kids running around with no supervision. If you have done this now or before MMJ, then yes you werent doing your job as a parent or grandparent!! Yes an adult can fall while holding a child but if they do it while high or drunk then there are some issues. No? Not debating tolerance levels here so.....either get better"meds" or try something that will get you where you need to be. Easy.

As for why im here, well lets see I grow, I smoke, make my own seeds, live a very MJ influenced lifestyle! Why are you questioning/second guessing why im here cause you dont agree with my stance on a issue?

Back peddling? Me? Come on now, im like a shark, always moving forward. Besides I havent seen or read anything to make me even consider such.

As for the article you attached, lets see te mom was a crankster, had already lost one child for that reason and was sharing a home with the father using "MMJ" and getin high with the kids around. The dad lied about his use and times of care for the child, refused to go see the his doc as he agreed (to to monitor his painful knees), etc... Read the article and tell us this guy or gal is winning any parent of the year awards. If this is what you are so outraged by(real or not) then again, im doin the right thing.

So much for lunch. Peace!!

 

[rives]

Rives - Ohhh thank you sooo much for your post!! So I am here actually debating people who think crankster gansters can be good parents!! No wonder there is so much animosity towards what I do!! Thank you again for that. It simply re-enforces my diligence in doing what I do. As for successes, you wont here about that from the snitch or any paper I know of because that doesnt sell papers or ads. Kids aren't pulled for any arbitrary reason man. You know how hard it is for a child to be removed?I ts not a one or even two person decision and is always a last resort. But again, im debating someone who thinks tweekers can be decent parents.

You continue to paint yourself into a corner. Unfortunately, I know of many tweakers who are "decent" parents, and their unfortunate choices in life don't necessarily make them "crankster gangsters". The idea that their behavior should automatically categorize them as needing to have their families destroyed reinforces the impression that you are giving of your smug overreach.

Read the article and tell us this guy or gal is winning any parent of the year awards. If this is what you are so outraged by(real or not) then again, im doin the right thing.

So, failure to be "parent of the year" means, again, destroy the family and toss the kids into foster care? Terrifying to think that you might actually be one of the more enlightened ones in your chosen field. Oh, and incidentally, I've witnessed some foster care situations that were truly deplorable. Impossible, right? After all, they are so thoroughly vetted and all.