MH vs HPS in bloom

[Stonefree69]

do u guys think i cuold go from running cooltubes or air cooled hoods.. to just exhausting more with barebulbs.. iunno i kinda wana go vert. i just wana see if i shouold do a vertical stadium or not.

I live in Arizona where summers can hit 120F+. I still ditched my cool tubes and got a 12,000 BTU mini-split ac/heat pump for summer. I figure I'm not cooling things much with 110F air to the tubes and STILL having to cool the room. The grow room w/filter helps heat my house in winter and I like the setup a lot more than with the cool tube/ducting jumble hanging around. You'll see many experienced growers in this forum have done the same thing as me. Never thinking of going back!

 

[the gnome]

And now i have my proof. TY sir! i will not be getting any enhanced hps bulb but rather be buying enhanced MH bulbs!

I can only imagine what the plants what do under 3k w, MH in 6.4k, 7.2k and 10k....1000w in each spectrum!! i wish i had the cash atm, id do it right now to test it lol

nephrosis, keep in minfd what I and others often said in this thread
strain related
if you decide to do all mh i would suggest to pack as many different strains in there as you can.
preferable ones you've grown under hps in bloom so you can at least get a basic idea of comparison.

the gro i did that started this thread I had DGs dieselrella, bog's bogglegum, GGGs candy drop and leia og.
and all did very well under Mh,
all were very potent,
and somethiong to note, its the 1st time my smoke tester told me that each and every sample was in the A+++ category and i had 80% from seed, not clone.

i still wouldn't rule out hps, Ive gottten some smoking hot harvests with it.

i think what the grower thats considering Mh in bloom needs to realize is your probably going to have to hunt for strains that excel under it. which isn't much of a prob.. i mean were all used to hunting for the keeper pheno's anyways, right.

but I think were going to see more strains do better under Mh as more people start to think out of the rigid hps is the only way to bloom box.
and personally i think the strains today that do well under hps
only grow well because of many years of being grown under it and those plants have adapted to it.

as dr shio posted in the 1st few pages of this thread...

I believe the use of HPS stems from outdated lore. People started using them when indoor growing first started because they had the highest output of any bulb available, in the best spectrum (metal halides were junk). The metal halide technology has progressed considerably since then and has far surpassed the HPS.

People think that stretch happens during flower because they switch their plants from MH to HPS and their plants freak out because the HPS lacks so much spectrum. What the plants are really doing is trying to find the light (even though HPS provides a lot of light, it is not in the right spectrum the plant wants).

But here is the reality:

Each plant is bred a certain way and has genetic predispositions. Therefore the light the plant wants will highly depend on its breeder and genetics. If the breeder selected for largest yield using only HPS, then the plant will likely do best in all HPS. This is the same for fertiization - if the breeder selected for which plant thrived most using synthetics, it will perform best with synthetics - if the breeder used organics, it will perform best with organics.

EDIT: Also, I think that dual-arc bulbs are a sham - you only get a 600W HPS and a 400W MH in a bulb - now place that at 1000W distance (due to 1000W heat) and the light hitting the plants is WEAK. Its like using a 400W MH next to a 600W HPS 18-24in from the plant, not okay.

 

[*mistress*]

this may be helpful...

conversion from foot-candles to w(watts) per m2(meter squared)
(for wavelengths of 400-850 nm(nanometers):

types of light multiply fc(foot candles) by:
-fluorescent
cool white 0.032
warm white 0.031
grow-lux plant light 0.069
grow-lux wide spectrum 0.047
agro-lite 0.043
vita-lite 0.041

hid(high intensity discharge)
mercury vapor 0.030
metal halide 0.037
high pressure sodium 0.036
low pressure sodium 0.023

incandescent
standard 0.093
mercury 0.065

daylight: 0.060

luminous flux: the rate of emission of light from a source with respect to the sensitivity of the human eye, measured in lumens.

illuminance: the luminous flux density incident on a surface, in lumens per square meter expressed in lux(lx). or lumens per square foot.(lm/ft2)

irradiane: the radiant flux density incident on a surface; that is, the radiant energy received by a surface. the units are watts per square meter(w/m2) or milliwatss per sqaure meter(mw/m2) or in watts or milliwatts per square foot.

luminous efficacy: the ratio of total luminous flux emitted by a lamp to the energy consumed expressed in lumens per watt (lm/w).

the best unit for expressing the energy requirement of a specific plant species is the irradiance expressed in milliwatts per sqaure meter or milliwatts per square foot(mw/m2,mw/ft2). it is the measure of the quantity of energy in wavelength band 400-700 nanometers(nm) received by the plants.

to more accurately compare different light sources, a meter that measures par(photosynthethically active radiation) is desirable. while the photometer measures the brightness sensation of the human gene, the par meter measures the energy in the 400-700 nanometers(nm) wavelengths received by plants.

the ~relative photosynthethic response ranges from ~300-850nm.

uvb light ~300-400nm
catalyst for fruit end quality, ripening...?

blue light 350-500nm
chlorophyll a catalyst
auxin catalyst
cell activity
split of water atom
influence on movement of plant

green/yellow 500-650nm
limited to no response. plants reflect green light and so seem green to human eye. why green lights can be used @ dark w/out interrupting dark for plants. cheapo party lights...?

red light 600-700nm
sugar production catalyst
chlorophyl b production catalyst/engine
seed germ signal
chloroplast adjustments to light
siganl light/dark times
chromosome catalyst/engine
soil composting enzyme catalyst

far red 700-780nm
signal seed dormancy
signals internode stretch

...

+mh...

cheers

 

[the gnome]

lots of nice onfo there mistress
not sure of what much of it means but
it seems like its good for the Mh in bloom side of things in this thread.
a very important thing to take from that is many don't realize plants don't see light
the way human eyes do.

but one thing seems to be fairly constant
and Mh bulbs from all ranges, warm Mhs to 7200K seem to work well.
my current bloom in for 18days has been with the solarmax 7200k
and it looks great
I can't use the $21 mh 4000K bulb,
its a BT56 and the bulb is too big for my 6" cooltubes
but my 6-8KW room will be online soon so I'll have a better place to to experiment
using diff. Kelvin rated Mh bulbs

the fact HPS does work in bloom leaves one to think using the warmer
ranges of Mh's produce better than the far blue end of the Mh spectrum?
I don't know but I will be experimenting, its hard not to look at the difference
between the pics i posted and others in this thread to get the inspiration

 

[bigscoot]

under 1000 MH

under 1000 MH

ok here we go now im not sayin MH aint good 4 flower it just seems like my plants under MH they just look different then im use 2 but over all there good tho i got 1 CVD,ghost og,sour lemon,green crack n lucifer og under tha MH

2 tha left is CVD middle is ghost og n right is sour lemon


tha green crack n front of tha ghost

 

[bigscoot]

600 hps

600 hps

ok i got a few under tha 600hps there sstayin a lil more greener then tha MH plants ion kno y but there doin great 2



CVD #3


pre98 bubba


sour dubb

 

[bigscoot]

1000 duel arc

1000 duel arc

i think tha duel arc is best 4 flower n veg thats just my opinion tha way they stack up real nice but all n all there all good 4 flower i mean they all yield almost tha same but tha duel arc got um beat n that department



strawberry diesel


n a shot of all under tha duel arc its a chemD right n front

 

[FOE20]

Tryin a dual myself to start...this is the HPS/MH-HPS super ver tho not the super Blue MH dual.....slippin on the cooltube and inline soon...just gettin it all together...def runs hotter than MH or HPS solo...
all good info tho and don't stop....keep it rollin
FOE20

 

[bigscoot]

def runs hotter than MH or HPS solo
FOE20

no doubt runs a lil hotter

 

[the gnome]

very nice selection of goods ya have there bigscoot
makes me envious for sure

 

[bigscoot]

thanx gnome this is a great thread u started 2 see tha differences of tha bulbs n how tha growth pattern is with them

peace

 

[liltin]

Tryin a dual myself to start...this is the HPS/MH-HPS super ver tho not the super Blue MH dual.....slippin on the cooltube and inline soon...just gettin it all together...def runs hotter than MH or HPS solo...
all good info tho and don't stop....keep it rollin
FOE20

hey so how is the dual tube working out for you?
the guy at my local shop has been talking up these tubes?
are they better than an hps and mh on their own?
apart from the extra power consumed?

thanks

 

[the gnome]

thanx gnome this is a great thread u started 2 see tha differences of tha bulbs n how tha growth pattern is with them

peace

thanx bigscoot
i didn't expect this thread to blow up the way it did.
in fact i was trying to get better resin production
with the Mh when by accident I noticed that quite a few plants in MH were putting the hps side to shame.

still lots of xspeermintin to do and it should be fun
i found a 10,000k Mh for $48 listed for horti use.
I'm going to give a go later to see what if anything happens with it.... there's saying in the casino's someone said to me once.
scared money don't make no money

 

[Stonefree69]

still lots of xspeermintin to do and it should be fun
i found a 10,000k Mh for $48 listed for horti use.
I'm going to give a go later to see what if anything happens with it.... there's saying in the casino's someone said to me once.
scared money don't make no money

I'll bet you get more resin production at least w/10,000k. Plus bare bulb MH will put out more UV rays for that as well as higher k rating on bulbs.

 

[the gnome]

stonefree,
I have the para hoods now that will allow for full circle 360 direct lite

i dunno, I may be going down a deadend alley
if there were something to the 10,000k bulbs seems like someone woulld have been there and done that right??

of course look at this thread.... seems to be the 1st side by side of most common used bulbs and in 2 years I haven't seen anything on it?

 

[FOE20]

liltin yea but Im stil tryin to figure out the mount yet...I want to remove the lower cuplink....so it doesn't block any light...It can hang free in the middle and be vented out inline from the top...plants look like their gettin about a 1/3 more light...saw a response by the next day...
but like BigScoot n Im sayin their hotties compared to standards,,...but I dig um so far indeed.....plus my hydro shop matches online prices..so I got it for $170 and it lists there for $250...good stuff
they do say these Dual Arc's work best in older elect/magnetic ballasts..not digis...so I do run it in a older mag..I use Didilux(600hps) in the Quantum digi...

the Gnome hope your ok with the Dual arc view...Im def wanting to try what you cats have laid out but Im taking baby steps myself..heh...
My goal is party resin and partly yield..my restraint on going all MH is Im not sure I want it all the way thru the cycle...
I know its hard to refute the look of what were seeing but the quality of it is still in the air for me till tested against standard bud..
For me a Plant actually grows into Bloom for a few weeks..Then as the budset dev and really starts I like to think that the Red spect really plays its part...
Now if I could swap out mt MH's at aprox 4-5wks and go HPS for last few wks that may be that best overall combo for me..

What I need to get over this is to se MH grown flower that have no active pistils at all..
That looks like its ready to be harvested...Cause to me Blue spec is grow spec...I only grow till 3-4wks in than I really want nothing more than to finish Flowering and ripen...
SunPulse is interesting in the way they adise on use of those bulbs...might wany to read up on that..but looks interesting but may be setbacks as to why more don't use them..biggest issue seems to be compatibility with certain ballasts..Im gettin a Phantom soon so might have to try a SunPulse..
FOE20
http://www.sunpulselamps.com/Lamp_Selection.html
3K Lamps
we recommend 3K lamp for the majority of flowering when growing annual plants.
4K Lamps
This is a Full Spectrum light good for all stages of growth.
6.4K Lamps
A lamp popularly used for vegetative growth.
10K Lamps
This lamp is for use during the last 1-2 weeks of flowering to allow better ripening and finishing.

 

[the gnome]

FOE20, what i suggest (if you already haven't) is spending the time to read at least the 1st 13 pages of this thread..
then make a decision as to how you want to proceed.
so many peeps are popping in and seems like none have read some very relevant info from
other Mh users and hps users that have good views that should be read.

what ever you decide which way you want to go i wish you luck.
on the dual arc's, i doubt I'll use them, there's info/views in this thread on it that made a lot of sense to me.
I made my mind up i don't plan to use them, that may change down the road tho..
take your path
but I won't say you shouldn't

as for hps i haven't told any one its not good or discouraged anyone from not using it
but I will be exploring the Mh route in depth to try to get the best harvest i can with whats available

sorry if I'm a bit... or a lot inconsistent ..
I'm a very inebriated Gnome tonite

 

[nephrosis]

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/340986/description/Blue_light_tells_plants_when_to_flower

The new work describes the molecular mechanics that enables a light-sensitive protein to help switch on a suite of genes that control flowering. Understanding the biology of how plants regulate flowering could be useful for tweaking crops to start producing food earlier in the year.

“We might be able to grow three times or twice as much in a season,


most pollinating insects will be buzzing around — such as in early spring — to maximize their chances of reproducing.Scientists have known that plants have higher levels of the blue-light sensitive protein FKF1 toward the end of the day and that the protein is important for tracking day length. It’s also been shown that another protein, called CO, plays a key role in turning on flowering genes.



***The researchers show that FKF1 helps stabilize the CO protein long enough to turn on flowering. Blue light — a particular wavelength of visible light that is common in sunlight that shines down at the end of a spring day, around the same time there is more FKF1 — enhances the interaction. FKF1 also lowers levels of a protein that normally serves as a brake on blooming.***

 

[nephrosis]

Maybe thats why my plants under MH veg mature faster and are ready for flower super fast

 

[whazzup]

hmmm... my 2 cents, for what it is worth

Plants have developed millions of years under sunlight. They are optimally adapted to that specific spectrum. That is something that pops up in every research paper about optimal spectrum for plant growth. Some plants thrive under (extra) red (and fortunately cannabis does so too!) but generally they need it all. Forget McCree when you are working with high intensity lighting, his curve is applicable for 100 umol s-1 m-2. At higher intensity the color green is even more more efficient than blue and red. Also UVA and B are "trending topics'.

Now MH lamps have, without a doubt, a better spectrum for plant growth than HPS. Problem is that they are not as efficient as HPS, though the new medium power CDMs come closer.

I have seen MH versus HPS grows and have done MH versus HPS grows, even CDM versus HPS. My experience is that MH is hotter than HPS. The yield of comparable MH lamps is lower than HPS, though some came very close.

So the MH do much less micromols but have a better spectrum. I think that is how you get a good yield per micromol. HPS spectrum is much worse, and particularly for the photosynthetic system, that needs blue light for maintaining itself. So though you get much more micromols to your plant, the yield per micromol is a bit less.

imho the old-school method of mixing MH 400 and HPS 600 works still very well if you choose for a traditional HID solution. You have the advantage of both that way. That's how a greenhouse works, but with sunlight.

I would stay away from 2-in-one lamp constructions for two reasons:

1. Lower wattage lamps are always less efficient
2. You have to toss the complete lamp after 6 months as the MH does not last very long, while the HPS may not even be half way.

In a small room they are hard to mix though, but that is a given.

A last thing you need to remember: Blue photons have more energy than red photons, (up to 1.7 times) and take more energy to create. So a blue lamp usually is less efficient in generating photons than a red lamp.