The Middle East Conflict

[Guest]

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 10:46 a.m. ET Jan. 30, 2004JERUSALEM - The leader of Hamas said Friday that his group is making every effort to seize Israeli soldiers as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians in Israeli jails.

Ten Israelis were killed and more than 50 wounded in Thursday’s suicide attack, the deadliest in four months. Such bombings in the past triggered large-scale Israeli military raids, but Israel this time appeared to have decided on a more measured response.

The Bethlehem incursion, the first in six months, was small in scale, and Israel did not clamp a closure on the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as it had done routinely in the past.

There were competing claims of responsibility for Thursday’s suicide bombing, with Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin announcing on Friday that his Islamic militant group was behind the attack. Just hours after the blast, however, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed group with ties to Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement, said it sent the bomber.

Yassin offered no explanation for the Hamas military wing’s delayed claim of responsibility.

“The evidence shows that they carried out this attack. ... There is a videotape of the individual who carried out the attack and it will be distributed throughout the West Bank,” he said.

Yassin also said Friday that his group is making every effort to seize Israeli soldiers as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians in Israeli jails.

The declaration came a day after a prisoner swap between Israel and the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah. Israel released more than 400 prisoners, the vast majority Palestinians, in exchange for an Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.

The target of the Bethlehem raid was the Aida refugee camp on the outskirts of town. Several dozen jeeps and armored vehicles moved slowly through darkened streets in convoys, training spotlights onto houses.

Soldiers ringed the house of the bomber, Ali Jaara. Figures could be seen moving past brightly lit windows in the building’s second floor and walking down an outdoor staircase. A few hours later, troops blew up the house with explosive charges.

The military said only that an operation was in progress in Bethlehem and surrounding areas and that troops arrested several suspected militants. It was the first military operation in the city since troops left the town in July as part of a larger withdrawal called for under a U.S.-backed peace plan.

Palestinian Cabinet minister Saeb Erekat condemned the raid. “Instead of sending soldiers and tanks to Bethlehem, Israel’s government should have sent negotiators to resume a meaningful peace process,” Erekat said.

Israel steps-up military activity
Also Friday, troops shot to death an Islamic Jihad member, Jihad Suwaiti, near the West Bank city of Hebron. The military said the man fired shots from a Kalashnikov assault rifle as soldiers came to arrest him, and troops returned fire, killing him.



In the Gaza Strip, a tank crew shot and killed two Palestinians. The military said it fired on a group carrying two explosive devices and rocket-propelled grenades near the Israeli settlement of Dugit shortly after midnight.

Elsewhere in the West Bank, troops demolished six buildings — one of them a four-story apartment complex — where Hamas militants captured by Israeli forces used to live. More than 50 people were left homeless. The arrested men from the violent Islamic group are accused by Israel of being behind two recent shooting ambushes that killed five soldiers.

The Islamic Jihad leader in the West Bank town of Jenin also was arrested. Sharif Tahaymeh had been on Israel’s wanted list for more than three years.

The stepped-up military activity appeared to be a response to Thursday morning’s suicide bombing in Jerusalem, which ripped apart a bus just a block from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s official residence. Sharon was not home at the time of the blast.

Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz met later Thursday to consider options after the bombing. Israel’s leadership was divided over how hard to hit back but appeared to have decided on a measured response.

The 24-year-old bomber was a Palestinian police officer — causing much chagrin within the Palestinian Authority, which has been under international pressure to use its police force to stop such attacks.

The attack also disrupted a visit by two senior U.S. State Department officials, David Satterfield and John Wolf, who were trying to persuade Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia to meet with Sharon as a way of restarting the stalled “road map” peace plan. The two envoys were at Israel’s Defense Ministry when the bomber struck.

 

[Euripides Eumenides]

And back and forth and back and forth we go...

 

[Guest]

Hey JJ
Will we ever see an end to it all?
I highly doubt it, the Israelis and Palestinians both have their hands in the cookie jar it seems, and theres not enough room for them to both pull out at the same time. So we continue to have this struggle, that divides the people and leads to innocents being killed on both sides of the "boarder".

Thanks for the reply my friend, welcome to the board

 

[010proletariat]

forever in struggle...

forever in struggle...

The Israelis have been involved in middle east wars for thousands of years. Regardless of the position one takes in examining the issues...the Israelis are as zealous as any other religous group about their belief system. Most unfortunately, I do not see there as being any change, regarding ME conflict, in the near future.

BP

 

[Guest]

By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - A suicide bomber blew himself up on a crowded Jerusalem bus Sunday morning, killing seven people and wounding 59 in an attack Israeli officials said proved the need for its disputed security barrier.



The attack came just a day before the International Court of Justice at the Hague was to begin hearings on the barrier, which Israel says is critical to keeping out the bombers that have killed hundreds of Israelis in more than three years of violence.


The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a militant group loosely affiliated with Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s Fatah (news - web sites) movement, claimed responsibility for the attack and identified the bomber as Mohammed Zool, 23, from the village of Hussan near Bethlehem.


Soon after the bombing, Israeli troops sealed off Bethlehem and Palestinian police left their posts in the town, Palestinian security sources said.


The huge blast went off around 8:30 a.m. during morning rush hour as the bus drove past a gas station in downtown Jerusalem.


"It was like an earthquake," Ora Yairov, who was at the gas station during the explosion, told Channel One television. "The station was filled with shattered glass and pieces of flesh."


The explosion ripped apart the back of the green bus and scattered body parts and shattered glass across a two-block radius. The windows were blown out, the windscreen cracked and the roof was raised.


"I felt blood on my head. I saw terrible things. I tried not to look," said Moshe Salama, a 56-year-old alternative healer who was on the bus. The left lens of his glasses was cracked where it was hit by a piece of shrapnel.


An hour after the blast, bodies still lay on the sidewalk. Rescue workers wrapped them in white sheets and put body parts in bags. Security forces stood on the roof of the nearby gas station watching the crowd.


Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz called a meeting with top security officials for Sunday night to discuss possible responses to the attack.


Israeli officials said the attack never would have happened had the section of the barrier being built around Jerusalem already been completed.


"This attack proves just how urgent it is to build the fence," Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said. "It is a clear preventive measure ... We will continue building it because it saves lives."


The Palestinians say the barrier — one-third of which has already been built — amounts to a land grab because it would cut several miles into the West Bank in some areas and disrupt the lives of tens of thousands of Palestinians.


Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia condemned Sunday's bombing. In a statement, he called for "an immediate halt to these actions," which he said gave Israel an excuse to continue building the barrier and to carry out raids against militants.


The bombing was the first since a suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus near Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s house on Jan. 29, killing 11 passengers.


The explosion came from a medium-sized bomb laced with pieces of iron that exploded in the center of the bus, police said. Police spokesman Gil Kleiman said the blast killed seven people besides the bomber. Rescue officials said at least 60 were injured.


A security agent had boarded the bus a few stops before the explosion, checked it and then got off, Gidi Goldflam, a passenger, told Army Radio. It was unclear if the bomber had been on the bus at the time.





The blast occurred near the Inbal Hotel, where American Jewish leaders were listening to a speech by Army chief Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon.

"The closeness reminds (us) that everyone can be a victim of terror and nobody is immune," Malcolm Hoenlein, an official with the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

The attack came as Israeli workers started removing a section of the West Bank separation barrier — about 5 miles of fencing, razor wire and trenches — that has isolated the Palestinian town of Baka al-Sharkia from the rest of the West Bank for more than a year. The move appeared aimed at softening criticism ahead of the world court hearing.

Israel has come under increasing pressure — including domestic legal challenges — to reroute the barrier to more closely conform to its border with the West Bank and lessen its effect on Palestinians. When completed, the barrier is to be some 435 miles long.

Nir Barkat, a former mayoral candidate, was driving nearby during the explosion and ran inside the bus to help.

"It's horrible what happened here, and the world has to know this," Barkat told Channel Two television, his hands, pants and shoes covered in blood. "Our right not to be blown up is more important than the quality of life of people whose lives will be disrupted as a result of our protection through the fence and other means."

 

[BushyOldGrower]

I studied Mid-East and World Politics

I studied Mid-East and World Politics

I had a couple good profs and one was Iraqi. He told me and the class that the coming world war wouldn't be between USSR and USA but that the third world counties would eventually attack the rich 1/3 of the world. This war is bigger than Isreal but that was the fuse lit after WW2.

This will be the final war of course and it will take some time.

I would rather make peace now than fight this world war but nobody will listen to me.

Peacemakers may be blessed but that's because it's such a lost cause. We just never learn.

Has Bush proposed peace talks? No. He calls all the enemies of Israel, UK and USA terrorists. See how our media slants the war?

Terror is what we used in the revolutionary war. The poorer countries always have to use this strategy. We will find it hard to win this one by force however because the masses are growing and the rich are shrinking. This is what the war is about. Not religion. That's all just propaganda. Power is fought for.

You may wonder how I would negotiate with all our enemies? BOG

 

[Captain Canibus]

Just as the richest 1-2% here in the good old USA focus upon nothing else other than getting richer, there are others who focus upon nothing other than killing all of us. The wahabes (sp?) and Bin Laden for example. In fact most of the Muslims of the world are considered infidels by them.

Negotiation is not always an option.

 

[Crazy Composer]

The fuse was lit by the crusades IMHO.

 

[BushyOldGrower]

War is a failure of Diplomacy

War is a failure of Diplomacy

Not that attacks shouldn't be defended against but beyond our initial response we need a long term strategy to deal with the growing problems of this world.

You cannot ignore a Billion screaming Muslims if they are appealing to the poor masses. What is the option? Mass genocide? The rich countries might place super viruses that they have vaccines for I suppose.

The poor will always lose but what sort of world do we really want? Would you just ignore how things get constantly worse for all the working classes all over the world?

I think we need a major change. The same old ideas just won't work. I have plans to appease our enemies and then we can negotiate with them. You see a lot of the hate is due to our unreasonable support of Israel and our presence in the Middle East.

Are you saying that our enemies are too stupid or inhuman to negotiate with? I don't think that at all. We need to make a show of good faith now that we have wielded the big stick freely.

Just my opinion... BOG

 

[Euripides Eumenides]

I can understand, and agree with much of what you're saying, BOG. However, it is important to remember that war itself is one of the tools of diplomacy. Sounds crazy, but political science studies mention that quite often.

Further, I agree that something must give in the region from all sides...I don't necessarily share your view of how, but the need is definitely there.

I believe that's what the WOT was meant to encapsulate, not necessarily what it does encapsulate at this juncture.

 

[Euripides Eumenides]

Has Bush proposed peace talks? No. He calls all the enemies of Israel, UK and USA terrorists. See how our media slants the war?

Peace talks with whom exactly? Bin-laden's top aides, or the Taliban remnants? Perhaps the Iraqi insurgency?

With all due respect, this makes no sense. None.

You can't discuss rationally with people whose only mission is the derailment of America, Israel, virtually all the Middle Eastern governments today and Europe - yes Europe too. Appeasement will only buy them another few years...

I'll agree the media slants the war, as Al Jazeera slants their way. The deceit comes from both sides...all are agenda-driven. If you read both, though, you'll come away with a bigger and better picture...still cloudy, but like a mirror steamed and wiped...

Terror is what we used in the revolutionary war. The poorer countries always have to use this strategy. We will find it hard to win this one by force however because the masses are growing and the rich are shrinking. This is what the war is about. Not religion. That's all just propaganda. Power is fought for.

It is religion, it is power, it is all you mention above. But it's more complicated than that.

You've got American views (Bush regime's views at the moment), American people's views, Sharon's views, Israeli publics view, Al-Qaeda/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Abu Sayyeff/Hezbollah and then you've got Arab government's views, then the Arab and Muslim people's views.

All are important, but all are different, even country to country. The great mistake I think people make in approaching this conflict is assuming the mass of Muslim and Arab voices are for the radical Islamists. Granted it's a growing segment, but it is by no means the majority view.
These "proxies" (as they fight for governments that sponsor them - Iran, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc., though not necessarily in conjunction with the host country's views) fight in the name of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, etc. but that's not the case in practice.

Witness for example the Wahabis (sponsored by Saudi Arabia) who poured into the Balkans after the Kosovo war. The idea was to fund great infrastructure and development projects in return for conversion (by aggressive means) to the Wahabi view - in an of itself in drastic contrast to most peaceful Islamic practice. The Kosovars and the Bosnians essentially said "no".

The same occurred, to a much greater degree of success, in Chechnya.

The problem we have is big.

On the one hand we must educate those to understand what exactly is being played out, and by whom.

The second thing is to understand that peace with the splinter groups is not an option - by both sides standards. Chasing the host countries from sponsoring/harboring can be done without armed invasion and must be understood as different than war with the proxies...witness Libya and now Iran's willingness to end their WMD programs.

The third thing is to understand that "root causes" and Muslim/Arab poverty and discontent is directly correlated to the US, but to others as well. The need to establish a more hands-off, funds-in mentality is necessary while concurrently fighting the proxy warriors.
Essentially, it cannot wait for the end of hostilities: Witness Sharon's laughable notion that Israel will embark on reconciliation only once completely quiet in the territories and Israel. It won't happen that way.

The fourth thing is probably the most important: Understanding that this is not only an American/Israeli issue. It affects the entirety of Europe, Asia and Africa as well.
Whether the UN/EU decide to get involved in a lasting and pragmatic way, fully understanding the dangers posed to them (as the UK and France have become bases for radical Islamists), will go a long way to addressing the right war, the right way.

To have the US run it alone is dangerous to all. It's unwinnable from a solitary perspective, and American policy needs to fall in line with international thinking. International thinking needs to fall in line with the true dangers and be able to separate the quashed masses from the militants who hide among them.

 

[BushyOldGrower]

JJ has a good mind and writes well.

JJ has a good mind and writes well.

Good points and I like good discussion without anger like this.

I am often wrong and my schooling doesn't make me an expert but I have a complicated combination of views that aren't anti american but more pro-labor.

I see human rights needing to be considered in all parts of the world. Most of what you say is sound but I think you are too optimistic about changing the world to suit america's wishes.

We have lost most of our credibility in this war on terror I fear due to Bush's attitude of, cowboy going it alone, so getting the cooperation we need just becomes more difficult.

Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to invade Iraq when they were under inspections by the UN. It turned out he didn't have much at all so it was false intelligence?

My feeling is that in all wars we paint our enemies as inhuman and evil. This makes negotiations impossible and war inevitable.

But arab countries are old compared to the USA. We seem to be a poor example of democracy when the guy with less votes somehow wins our election. Yes, I understand the electoral college and I drift off topic.

Arabs have colleges and electricity and they know lots of stuff too. They are capable of thinking and they are scared of us now.

That's how some want to play it and I understand but do you get long term friends by force? No. They may appear to cooperate while secretly helping our enemies because we haven't listened to reason.

The Saudi prince so and so has offerred to negotiate a deal but we won't listen so eventually the Saudis will declare an embargo of oil on the USA. We know this and we are prepared to take what we need if necessary. What a fix we are in now and I do blame the Bush.

Send him back to Texas whipped by Kerry is all I hope for... BOG

 

[krusty]

this thread kinda intrested me a bit....was kinda amazed yawl stoners gave this much thought into this...

alot of people compare usa goverment/bush to nazis/hitler type stuff....i dont think this is fair to the american public or even bush :/

as much as i dislike the guy he aint that bad....he is religious obviously...and after what his father went thru and what happened in 911 I am suprized he didnt push some fancy looking red button:/

you guys have spent alot of time studying this issue ...its obvious...i *think* yawl are saying that the world has limited resources and that everyone is fighting over whats left.....that we are a wee bit too over populated here....and that people in power fuck up alot:/

maybe bush has fucked up..but i am not scared of americans or there politicians...i think they are wasting resources and maybe doing things wrong....but i know i couldnt do any better....i know i could out grow bush or any of his govermental grow ops teehee but as far as running a country or running the most powerful force in the world i think he is doing okies:/

before reading this thread and other threads here i thought bush was way way evil.....i saw that dead/lost/blank look in his eyes and to me it was always evil....but after reading some stuff here i think i would have a that lost look too.....i still cant wait for USA to drop his ass and get some cigar sniffng perve in office.....but i just think bush musta still gave a shit for what is right or wrong sorta....he obviously aint no hitler or world conquer thingy:/

peace

krusty

ps- sorry to interupt yer good convo with hillbilly views

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Krusty you old Patriot

Krusty you old Patriot

Ya well ya know I rallied round the flag for a couple months until I saw how Bush really wasn't doing a very good job. I wish he was but I agree that he isn't the epitome of evil just a disaster for the world.

Religious? Well, Hitler was religious too wasn't he for Christianity and didn't he use the Jews as scapegoats to get elected? Bush uses religion to get some people, not just hillbillys, to think he is good rather than evil.

I don't buy his act but I would rather not have Bush bashing that goes too far. While I do believe he is the 3rd incarnation of the anti-Christ and that he is indeed hitler... I don't think he is so evil in reality...just deluded.

Regime change is our wish so we agree on something. BOG

 

[ChemFrog]

These fake jews need to leave Israel


Stop being ignorant peepz watch the video with facts and only facts not the bullshit fiction sum zionist supporter make up!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESkTi_91WY4

I love real Jews and i hate Zionist

 

[BushyOldGrower]

I forgot this thread and it seems that little has changed. Ya know I like Israel and Jews but I also wish the Palestinian statehood to be a step in the right direction.

Our govt has had some difficulty accepting peoples movements in Arab lands due to the religious govts they often elect but they need freedom to choose their leaders and laws before they can see westerners as helpful allies rather than enemies. We have changed a little.

 

[azad]

Good gosh,,You guys need to smoke some good peacefull erbs,if you can find em..lmao.
Let the jews and muslims fight it out.

 

[Moppel]

These fake jews need to leave Israel


Stop being ignorant peepz watch the video with facts and only facts not the bullshit fiction sum zionist supporter make up!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESkTi_91WY4

I love real Jews and i hate Zionist

´
´
this thread is 8 years old , moron....

 

[ChemFrog]

´
´
this thread is 8 years old , moron....

Whats with the anger and nasme calling? your the moron mate



still wearing that black hat? lol

 

[lunatick]

this topic should be in a different forum

this topic should be in a different forum

this topic should be moved from this specific forum