see my edit ^^^
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Will this relay work?
- Thread starter Adwarrior
- Start date
Agaricus
Active member
Yep, if you want to run 2 lamps flip-flopped from one ballast it's on the load side. If you have two balasts then line side's the way to go. The AutoCad drawing shows 2 separate ballasts, that's why I was saying line side.
That relay's fine for the job. Those critters are rugged and last for hundreds of thousands of cycles.
That relay's fine for the job. Those critters are rugged and last for hundreds of thousands of cycles.
Right, I see and understand that now. However, that doesn't entirely work for me, as one of the reasons to do the flip is we have smart meters here now and I quite liked the idea of an uninterrupted draw by the ballasts (which is why I'm pleased I don't have to cycle the mag ballasts on and off before flips and those extra timers in my drawing are now surplus to requirements). There's that and the obvious advantage or drawing 2K watts for 24 hours instead of 4K watts for 12 hours.
Hammerhead, can you just clear up for me though, the diagram you posted does in fact have the relay on the load side, as I originally thought, does it not?
And, maybe you were referring to this Agaricus, is it OK to double up both the inputs and the outputs on the relay, as it's a 2 ballast, 4 light setup? I really don't want to order and have to wait for another relay to arrive. I'm in interior BC and everything takes an age to get here by post. I think they still use ponies to deliver the mail out here or something. Anyway, the draw of both ballasts are well within the 30amps, so I figure, theoretically it should be OK.
And thanks for chiming in with guys.
You wont see anything diferant on your smart meter with them on the line side. If you set the timers to turn on/off at the same times. Keep in mind that some of the newer ballest have built in delay start I have 1. mine seems to be about 10sec delay.I like this feature especially for multiple ballest rooms. It prevents all of them firing at the same time. get rives in here he will give you the correct info. Its up to you what you do we only tell you what we think is correct.
Not sure what I can help with here - if you are flipping two lamps with a single ballast, then you need a dpdt relay installed on the load side of the ballast (between the ballast and the lamps). If you want to do a cold flip, then you will also need a relay on the line side to turn the ballast off prior to the flip. If you are selecting between two ballast/lamp combinations, then the relay needs to go on the line side (the input power to the ballasts).
I believe that a smart meter is going to see the ignition spike of the lamp whether the ballast is turned on throughout the flip or not.
I believe that a smart meter is going to see the ignition spike of the lamp whether the ballast is turned on throughout the flip or not.
Thanks for your input rives 
Yes thanks.
Do you guys think merely switching power from one lamp to the other is going to be as noticeable as the soft start of a ballast? Which actually brings me to something else I'm not entirely clear on. The manner in which the bulbs fire up.
I should explain. As you have most likely gathered I am new to all of this and my situation is this: While I am definitely familiar with consumption I am a total novice at cultivation. My motivation for doing this isn't for consumption purposes, but in fact to make oil for a family member that has cancer. Said family member is currently ingesting a gram of oil a day, which, as I'm sure you're aware, isn't cheap. So, I like to smoke a bit of weed and I like to build stuff, so thought I'd give it a go. I've built my room, but not even fired it up yet. That's why I'm asking questions like someone that's never fired up an HPS light in anger before, because I haven't. That said, I have spent about 6 months doing my homework and the last 2 weeks building it.
However, I hadn't considered smart meters until I noticed they'd installed one and not notified me a couple of weeks ago. For a while I was considering shelving the whole idea. Then I came across the flip flop and that gave me a nice warm feeling again. Spreading the power over 24 hours instead of just 12 is a lot less conspicuous, especially when it's just 2000 watts plus auxiliaries. And it just seems so smart when you consider most of the cost is in the ballast. It should work well for me, as I already have a room split down the middle and intend to run a perpetual grow anyway. I've got all my gear, everything's built, clones are rooting, I'm just waiting on my relay so I can bed the room in for a couple of days and then introduce some plants.
So, you can see why I don't want to sit around and wait for another relay that may take 2 weeks to get here.
I did look into the smart meters and what the company line is on them. They say on their website that there are two reasons: First, they can detect if power is being stolen immediately and narrow it down to the exact meter. And secondly, the old meters weren't able to record the extra power required by household goods whenever they initially fire up. Items with motors, compressors, fans etc draw more than operating power when they first fire up and the old meters weren't able to record it. And lastly, of course they no longer have to send someone to read the meter.
I don't know, maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but I figure it's best to keep my power consumption nice and smooth.
I do have something else I totally forgot about and just came across, which is an Intermatic T103 120/240V timer. I think it's most likely overkill to use to signal the control for the relay, but could it be useful? It's DPST, 120/240 3 wire supply. I'm sure you're all familiar with them.
Anyway, that's my story, I'm a newbie!
Do you guys think merely switching power from one lamp to the other is going to be as noticeable as the soft start of a ballast? Which actually brings me to something else I'm not entirely clear on. The manner in which the bulbs fire up.
I should explain. As you have most likely gathered I am new to all of this and my situation is this: While I am definitely familiar with consumption I am a total novice at cultivation. My motivation for doing this isn't for consumption purposes, but in fact to make oil for a family member that has cancer. Said family member is currently ingesting a gram of oil a day, which, as I'm sure you're aware, isn't cheap. So, I like to smoke a bit of weed and I like to build stuff, so thought I'd give it a go. I've built my room, but not even fired it up yet. That's why I'm asking questions like someone that's never fired up an HPS light in anger before, because I haven't. That said, I have spent about 6 months doing my homework and the last 2 weeks building it.
However, I hadn't considered smart meters until I noticed they'd installed one and not notified me a couple of weeks ago. For a while I was considering shelving the whole idea. Then I came across the flip flop and that gave me a nice warm feeling again. Spreading the power over 24 hours instead of just 12 is a lot less conspicuous, especially when it's just 2000 watts plus auxiliaries. And it just seems so smart when you consider most of the cost is in the ballast. It should work well for me, as I already have a room split down the middle and intend to run a perpetual grow anyway. I've got all my gear, everything's built, clones are rooting, I'm just waiting on my relay so I can bed the room in for a couple of days and then introduce some plants.
So, you can see why I don't want to sit around and wait for another relay that may take 2 weeks to get here.
I did look into the smart meters and what the company line is on them. They say on their website that there are two reasons: First, they can detect if power is being stolen immediately and narrow it down to the exact meter. And secondly, the old meters weren't able to record the extra power required by household goods whenever they initially fire up. Items with motors, compressors, fans etc draw more than operating power when they first fire up and the old meters weren't able to record it. And lastly, of course they no longer have to send someone to read the meter.
I don't know, maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but I figure it's best to keep my power consumption nice and smooth.
I do have something else I totally forgot about and just came across, which is an Intermatic T103 120/240V timer. I think it's most likely overkill to use to signal the control for the relay, but could it be useful? It's DPST, 120/240 3 wire supply. I'm sure you're all familiar with them.
Anyway, that's my story, I'm a newbie!
I just re-read this and noticed that I mis-read it. I read "the relay will be fine for a 2 ballast 4 lamp show" and didn't really register the next part and didn't click until after. So, Sorry about that.
So, guess I'm going to have to get another relay regardless...Damn.
I think that there are potentially a couple of things to worry about with smart meters. First, apparently they are capable of following and recording usage with enough resolution that different types of equipment show a peculiar "signature" and can be loosely classified as a result. Second, since they can detect very minimal changes in load, patterns of usage are easily determined.
There is nothing that you can do about the first thing because the signature ignition spike of an HID lamp firing up is still going to be there regardless of whether or not you have a flip-flop. I would think that an electronic ballast with a soft-start might actually be a bit more stealthy, but I've never seen the data coming off of a smart meter or run a chart on the line while a lamp was firing. I think that the second point above is the most worrisome, and again, there isn't a damn thing that you can do about it. It seems to me that it would be a fairly simple task to automate searches for a 12hr +/- incidence rate and have the software hunt growers down. There are very few loads outside of grow lighting that have an incident rate of 12 hours accompanied by a significant load.
I think that your best defense against smart meters is to pay your bill on time. There are some very elaborate, very expensive ways to shift/conceal the load with batteries, inverters, etc, but probably not anything within reach of what you want to reasonably accomplish.
The T103 timer is a great, heavy-duty timer for standalone applications, meaning that the contacts are heavy enough that you don't need a relay to switch the ballast power. Their timing resolution is pretty crude because of the motor-driven disc with flippers - they are very repeatable, just difficult to set. If you are going to use a relay anyway, you can get by with a light-duty digital timer to control it.
There is nothing that you can do about the first thing because the signature ignition spike of an HID lamp firing up is still going to be there regardless of whether or not you have a flip-flop. I would think that an electronic ballast with a soft-start might actually be a bit more stealthy, but I've never seen the data coming off of a smart meter or run a chart on the line while a lamp was firing. I think that the second point above is the most worrisome, and again, there isn't a damn thing that you can do about it. It seems to me that it would be a fairly simple task to automate searches for a 12hr +/- incidence rate and have the software hunt growers down. There are very few loads outside of grow lighting that have an incident rate of 12 hours accompanied by a significant load.
I think that your best defense against smart meters is to pay your bill on time. There are some very elaborate, very expensive ways to shift/conceal the load with batteries, inverters, etc, but probably not anything within reach of what you want to reasonably accomplish.
The T103 timer is a great, heavy-duty timer for standalone applications, meaning that the contacts are heavy enough that you don't need a relay to switch the ballast power. Their timing resolution is pretty crude because of the motor-driven disc with flippers - they are very repeatable, just difficult to set. If you are going to use a relay anyway, you can get by with a light-duty digital timer to control it.
or get some real good LED'S Im lucky no smart meter here
Im lucky no smart meter here
have they cought on to power consuptions of LED's yet?? plus he would be using them 24 hr's a day...I dont think he has to worry..How many of us use smart meters now. I used one at the old house.
I think that they can probably determine the interval and load on your electric tooth brush charging up. But I agree - I don't think that he has anything to worry about as long as he doesn't single himself out for greater attention. Too much data........
Thanks guys.
Yeah, at the end of the day it's a 2 light setup and fairly insignificant. And also, what type of company squeals on people for buying large amounts of their product.
I think ultimately the smart meters are about the company making more money and catching people that are stealing power.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, at the end of the day it's a 2 light setup and fairly insignificant. And also, what type of company squeals on people for buying large amounts of their product.
I think ultimately the smart meters are about the company making more money and catching people that are stealing power.
Thanks guys.
No, you cannot use (1) relay to flip (2) ballasts.
If you are flipping between lamps, you will need a DPDT relay for EACH ballast. The relay will break both power legs coming from the ballast and select which lamp gets the power.
