Lockout Lucas Ebb and Grow

[Sparrow707]

My plants are missing something but shouldn't everything be there already using 8/16 Lucas? Besides yellowing they are lacking the vigor I wanted to see in the ebb and grow and the leaves are always drooped, not clawing really, just not erect.

I'm running a cap ebb and grow with 24 pots, 6K, Lucas formula with gh. Ph is 5.9, res temp is 69, room temp floats around 80. I will be using RO soon but so far I have been using tap water, which is coming in at around 100ppm (I've read 200 is where the problems show up?)

I flood 5 times a day for 30 minutes.

Any suggestions? Thanks!!

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

The plants look droopy from being over watered.

They also look magnesium and nitrogen hungry from running bloom food, PH too low, not enough magnesium. Not all plants do great on the lucas formula. Some need more minerals, higher ph, and more nitrogen.

What strain are you running?

 

[Sparrow707]

Crystal Chunk on 3 rows and Jillybean on one row (Jillybean is taking to the formula much better).

So instead of running Lucas and adding minerals, magnesium, ect, I am thinking I will just run a full 3 part GH since I've already got the nutes.

I've got cali-magic but think the calcium may just lock out more magnesium, is it safe to run epsom salts in a recirculating system?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

What medium are they in? Is that those Sure to Grow cylinders?

If so I tried them back in my Ebb&Gro days and had to scrap the grow mid veg because I could not overcome similar symptoms of overwatering. No matter how often or how infrequent I developed a soggy/floppiness in the bottom of the STG deluge cylinder which I could not grow out of. The plants were drowning.



If that is just poly over hydroton. I'd flood with straight pH adjusted RO every 4 hours for 15 min. Run straight RO (or that tap if its all you got) for around 3 days and resume to normal 8/16. This should correct any lockout issues.


They actually don't look that bad to me. Are you running full strength lucas? What direction is your EC/PPM moving in your res over the course of a few days after mixing/adding nutes. Looks hungry or possible low o2 issue.

When running Ebbs I only ever ran 30min on cycle if I was using 36 buckets. With 24 I would stick to 15min cycles every 4 hours - in hydroton that is.

 

[Sparrow707]

I am running straight hydroton, with poly covers.
I am using full strength lucas, over the course of a few days I lose water volume in my res and my pH creeps up, but my EC stays level.

Ok, I will switch my floods from 30 minutes to 15 with just pH'd water and update in a few days!

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[resinryder]

I'm gonna say it and I already know I'm gonna get beat up over it but I could give a shit......I see so many threads , some time 1 every week, where people use the Lucas formula that say something similar to, "Using Lucas, my plants look like shit, what's wrong?"
Here's what's wrong. LUCAS!!!
It's not as simple as people make it out to be, unless you get it dialed in. It needs to be tweaked to work correctly. And everyone that is getting great results with it tweak it differently. And new growers that read the "GOOD SHIT ABOUT IT" end up with ruined plants, damaged plants, defecent plants, etc.
You want plants to grow and not have problems, switch to something else that works better and hang the Lucas up. The sooner people realize that Lucas is the problem and switch to something else, and never the Advanced Nutes bullshit line, the sooner growers will have better results and something to be proud of in their rooms, and we can stop having these "Help I'm using Lucas 8/16 and my grow is fucked. What's wrong?" threads popping up every week.
Not dissing you for using this formula but it is not THE end all, the shit, the miracle solution people think it is.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Its easy to blame the nutes.

The lucas formula doesnt need 'tweaked' to work correctly. Its a great ratio and fulfills all of the plant's nutritional requirements. Its damn near foolproof in hydroton or similar mediums. Problems are related to watering frequency, pH, or environment conditions which might be effecting plant uptake, but not the formula itself. It works great as the simple hydro formula that it was designed to be.

There are 17 elements essential for plant growth, what makes you think that the Lucas formula is to blame? What target numbers are you shooting for?

"Help I'm using Lucas 8/16 and my grow is fucked. What's wrong?"

Could just as easily be -
"Help I'm using Botanicare and my grow is fucked. What's wrong?"
"Help I'm using Foxfarm and my grow is fucked. What's wrong?"
"Help I'm using (insert brand and formula here) and my grow is fucked. What's wrong?"

Blaming Micro/Bloom mixed in proven ratios which contain the proper elements needed for healthy plant growth is avoiding the actual issue.

//

pH created it using Mel Franks specs.

Lucas doesn't take credit for any of it - just preached it to the world so that everyone can grow great hydro so simply.

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom, is my guru pH's baseline bloom formula (pH is a person) derived from the Mel Frank targets, which suggest a 100-100-200-60 goal for NPKMG values in bloom Both GH Flora series nutes and the Flora Nova series, achieve Mel Franks targets without additives. Here is a link to Mel's specs http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fo...es/profiles.htm

pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73
S 49
Ca 130


What numbers do you shoot for resin?
Why point blame to a particular set of numbers and not provide some others if you feel so strongly that the Lucas formula is wrong?

 

[resinryder]

If you doubt what I posted, take a look through this forum and see just how many similar "Using Lucas, what's wrong with my plants" threads you see. I didn't say it didn't work, I said that people that have great results with it usually have to add something else to it, thus tweaking it, to get their results.
It Lucas were that great to use out the box so to speak, we wouldn't have all these what's wrong threads about it popping up. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[resinryder]

Saw your question at the end of the post and neglected to answer

"pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73
S 49
Ca 130


What numbers do you shoot for resin? "

My answer-

None of that matters a hill of beans to me.
It's a nice ratio and it looks nice in print.
HOWEVER, not all plants can take the same amount of nute and perform to its top ability. I have plants that can take EC 1.4 and preform excellent. Have other plants that preform better with EC 1.0 and reach their full potential with the lower ratios.
For instance, I have a plant that produces heavy abundant, wonderful smelling buds with the EC no higher than EC 1.2 If I run this same plant at EC 1.4 or higher it throws joint sized foxtails and that's it.
Lucas is a 1 size fits all formula based on 8/16 and given the example I mentioned above will not give me the results that I rely on time after time. There is no give and take with it. I'd rather use a formula that works based on what I know gives me the results I expect time after time depending on the plants needs than to use a 1 size fits all formula that doesn't give the results I know a plant is capable of. And I've seen the fucked results of 8/16 on this strain I have and it's totally laughable. So this is why I say Lucas is a joke.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

If you doubt what I posted, take a look through this forum and see just how many similar "Using Lucas, what's wrong with my plants" threads you see.

I guarantee there are far more, edit: On average, for other nutes. Period.

I didn't say it didn't work, I said that people that have great results with it usually have to add something else to it, thus tweaking it, to get their results.

Ten years... only thing I ever 'tweaked' was pH and environment... the occasional in-bred that needed epsom, but that's it.

It Lucas were that great to use out the box so to speak, we wouldn't have all these what's wrong threads about it popping up. Nothing more, nothing less.

Considering the number of folks that appear to be using it... this is actually a very small percentage. Just a lot of threads because of the overall numbers.

For the record... I now use Pro-tekt as a mild pH up and silica/silicon additive and definitely recommend Kool Bloom powder twice during flower. Your strains may vary.


Now... as for the OP issue, your current pH is 5.9... what was your starting pH? You're at the upper range of your pH and should be ready to drop it back down. I'd try as low as 5.6 as your starting pH and work up from there.

Also, as previously mentioned, you may want to cut back on the water. 3 - 4 times a day for 15min should be more than sufficient.

Stay Safe!

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

look like a N def to me bud...

 

[Sparrow707]

I have cut back the floods to 15 minutes every 4 hours and refilled with just RO water to flush them out. I set my pH at 5.8 although with the tap water it is creeping up into the 6's within 24 hours, I think that will slow down with the RO water.

After flushing them I'm tempted to start half strength (GH 3 part) and work my way up but the fact that they are starving makes me think I should use a full strength feed.

I've tried foliar feeding N with no success using SN-14 and Magic Green.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

I think the reduced cycle time will get them to pop/perk.



Plenty of N in 8/16 at full strength.

I would simply run RO for 48 hours or so and then re-dose with full strength 8/16. Set your pH to 5.2 initially and let it naturally rise to say 6.2. If you're needing to top-off before either a res change or nute add-back, top off with straight RO which will gradually dilute your EC/raise your pH. You want your pH to swing within the 5.2-6.2 range allowing full uptake of nutrients.


Your room and res temps look spot on. What is your humidity like?
Again, environment is everything. You can be giving your plants exactly what they'd like be it from this brand or that, but issues can arise if environmental conditions are not ideal resulting in unbalanced nutrient uptake, etc.

Lucas's target numbers are a great baseline for cannabis in non-dense hydro mediums. As with any program in hydro, flying blind is never advised, follow what your TDS/EC is telling you in terms of nutrient uptake. Do some reading into Lucas's actual methods as his 'formula' is much more then just a recipe targeting a set of numbers.

Check out the Canna Stats page -
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/index.html

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I think the reduced cycle time will get them to pop/perk.



Plenty of N in 8/16 at full strength.

I would simply run RO for 48 hours or so and then re-dose with full strength 8/16. Set your pH to 5.2 initially and let it naturally rise to say 6.2. If you're needing to top-off before either a res change or nute add-back, top off with straight RO which will gradually dilute your EC/raise your pH. You want your pH to swing within the 5.2-6.2 range allowing full uptake of nutrients.


Your room and res temps look spot on. What is your humidity like?
Again, environment is everything. You can be giving your plants exactly what they'd like be it from this brand or that, but issues can arise if environmental conditions are not ideal resulting in unbalanced nutrient uptake, etc.

Lucas's target numbers are a great baseline for cannabis in non-dense hydro mediums. As with any program in hydro, flying blind is never advised, follow what your TDS/EC is telling you in terms of nutrient uptake. Do some reading into Lucas's actual methods as his 'formula' is much more then just a recipe targeting a set of numbers.

Check out the Canna Stats page -
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/index.html

All this is great... spot on!

Only thing I would add is that 5.2 might be too low in an E&F setup...5.4-5.5 might be more appropriate. 6.2 should be good for your maximum.

For those interested in DWC the swing should be around 5.2-5.8... leastwise that's what I've found to work well with everything.

Yes, Lucas is more than just a target set of nutrient numbers, res management has just as much, or more, to do with the end result.

Stay Safe!

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

Google 'Nutrient Availability Chart' and look at what PH Magnesium gets lock out at. Magnesium gets locked out below 5.9-6.0 & Phosphorus becomes more available below 5.8. This is the reason why you should practice PH swing and let it raise to 6.5. During Veg plants need the higher PH because of what's available and they benefit from a lower PH later in Flower because of the more Phosphorus available. Allowing the PH to swing up over a couple days is a good way to help provide all the minerals.

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

A good way to figure out the flood times needed is to watch them fill with no plants and see how long it takes to fill to the level needed. I run a 4x4 tray E&F and it only takes 4-5min for it to fill. I don't like my plants soaking wet.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Google 'Nutrient Availability Chart' and look at what PH Magnesium gets lock out at. Magnesium gets locked out below 5.9-6.0 & Phosphorus becomes more available below 5.8. This is the reason why you should practice PH swing and let it raise to 6.5.

Personally... in the last 10 years, I've never had plants look healthy when the pH went above 6.0 in DWC. Always lucas using GH 3-part, Maxibloom or Nova.

6.2 in drip or E&F with hydroton... yes.

6.5? You've got to be running a peat mix of some sort.

The pH range you start and stop at changes with the medium (or lack of) that you're using. Some drop the pH more than others, as they dry out, and every grower has to adapt it for their specific situation.

Stay Safe!