WHAT IS THIS

[Tyga]

Sorry for the obnoxious post title but I am legit going crazy. As you guys I'm sure have seen this has been an ongoing problem for me and I just simply can't get to the bottom of it....
Media- Roots Organic Coco
Temps- Lights On/Off 76/68
Humdity- 48-58%
PH- Starts at 5.8 and drifts to 6.2
Lighting- 1000W HPS
Nutes- 6/9, 1G Epsom, Drip clean
Any more info needed just let me know... For a while I was suspecting off gassing so I ripped down the old tent and re-made one using poly. Looks like that might have been a waste considering this is a reoccurring problem.... I am actually running 2 separate nutrient lines. 6/9,Epsom,Drip clean and also a one part nutrient called "Veg+Bloom" from hydroponic research and plants from each feed line are showing the same signs. So I'm leaning towards counting out the feed...

 

[legalizeDK]

it a def. could be potassium or some kind of micro

 

[SeaMaiden]

Wow, I've observed the top leaf depicted, but nothing quite like the last two. Are you saying that you're combining two feeding programs into one, or what?

 

[tocksick]

on what part of the plant are these leaves from...ie top, middle, bottom? and are they doing this with both nute lines?

 

[greenpinky]

hey bro it looks like your lights are too close there burning the leaves, i get this when i transtion plants to outdoor..... thats my guess.... good luck g.p

 

[gaiusmarius]

maybe you can cut out the epsom salts for 2 out of 3 waterings. but there again the top pic could just be an old fan leaf off the bottom of the plant, while the second 2 pics do look a bit like light burn. but without more info about what exactly you are feeding them it's hard to be sure.

 

[Tyga]

I was originally thinking light bleaching but the air-cooled hood is damn near 2 ft from the top of the canopy and there is plenty of airflow so I dont think that is it.
When I say they are getting 2 seperate feeds I mean Im running blumats and have 2 seperate reservoirs. 6 Plants are being fed 6/9,1G epsom,Drip clean. The other 4 are being fed a one part nutrient called "Veg+bloom". Plants from each feed are all exhibiting the same symptoms which is leading me away from a deficiency. but I could be wrong! Just seems a little strange.
If anyone wants any more info just ask... Ive done countless hours of research trying to get to the bottom of this over the past month or so and just can't figure it out...

 

[Tyga]

on what part of the plant are these leaves from...ie top, middle, bottom? and are they doing this with both nute lines?

Top/middle brotha... And yes with both nute lines which I have had success with in the past runnin the same formula.

 

[tocksick]

IMHO your having some type of lockout...being from the tops/middle.

you said that your pH is drifting from 5.8-6.2....is that in your rez?? or after watering??

whats the ph/ppm/ec of your runoff?

 

[resinryder]

What type of system are they in? IE, hand water, f&d, etc? Is tubing being used?

Scratch all that^^. What type tubing are you using and does it have anything written/printed on it?

 

[Tyga]

What type of system are they in? IE, hand water, f&d, etc? Is tubing being used?

Scratch all that^^. What type tubing are you using and does it have anything written/printed on it?

@Resinglyder Blumats so DTW I guess. The tubing is 8MM black tubing I picked up from my local hydro shop. Pretty sure there isnt any markings on it but I will check.
@tocksick- Ive been told not watch Ph of runoff in coco But I will take a look at the EC of the runoff. Seems that right when they are hooked to the blumats and moved under the HPS is when they start acting funky.

 

[resinryder]

Reason i asked about the hose is a while back there was some people having problems with hoses picked up from hydro stores but for the life of me I can't remember what was printed on them. Apparently there was some chemical in the composition of the hoses makeup that was killing or causing serious problems with the plants.


Have you flushed the plants with anything since they have been growing? I do a flush once a month with 20ml Clearex/gallon of water. Washes out any salt buildup. Salt build up will cause lockouts also that look like deficiencies.

 

[resinryder]

Found it. If it has N-G-W printed on the tubing toss it and get something else. Just odd that both are doing the samething with different setups. Has to be something both systems have in common.

 

[Tyga]

Reason i asked about the hose is a while back there was some people having problems with hoses picked up from hydro stores but for the life of me I can't remember what was printed on them. Apparently there was some chemical in the composition of the hoses makeup that was killing or causing serious problems with the plants.


Have you flushed the plants with anything since they have been growing? I do a flush once a month with 20ml Clearex/gallon of water. Washes out any salt buildup. Salt build up will cause lockouts also that look like deficiencies.

I haven't flushed them... I always handwatered them with excessive run off. Ill test the ec of the runoff tommorow and see if there is a salt build up in the media.

 

[Gardens Keeper]

I was originally thinking light bleaching but the air-cooled hood is damn near 2 ft from the top of the canopy and there is plenty of airflow so I dont think that is it.
When I say they are getting 2 seperate feeds I mean Im running blumats and have 2 separate reservoirs. 6 Plants are being fed 6/9,1G epsom,Drip clean. The other 4 are being fed a one part nutrient called "Veg+bloom". Plants from each feed are all exhibiting the same symptoms which is leading me away from a deficiency. but I could be wrong! Just seems a little strange.
If anyone wants any more info just ask... Ive done countless hours of research trying to get to the bottom of this over the past month or so and just can't figure it out...

24 inches from a 1k watt is still enough to burn some plants depending on the size of them and airflow has zero effect on whether or not something is light burned. I notice in the third picture the the edge of the leaves are bright green and the dead plant cells are in very defined areas, almost straight edge. This makes me think possibly light burn however the following two issues can cause some wacky stuff.

Aside from that you need to really check that tubing and make sure it is not NGW. Immediately remove it all if so and hand water if possible until it can be replaced.

Are you pHing your water before you add the drip clean? Are you adding the drip clean after everything has been added? Are you adding the drip clean in the proper amount? Failing to do any of this can be the problem.

 

[Puscifer]

Tyga my man, we are in the same boat.
I'll be watching this thread.

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Puscifer, make a separate thread and fill out the info asked in stitches sticky thread. I do not believe you have the same problem and you would be amazed at how many things can go wrong and how others can you tell you what did go wrong by giving all the information pertinent to making a diagnosis. Yours looks like a mag deficiency or possibly potassium but more samples of leaves in different stages are needed to be sure and most importantly more information so the cause can be found.

I would have said potassium deficiency for the current thread is it weren't for such defined areas of dead plant cells in the pictures after the first one posted. Potassium would effect the 'teeth' of the outer rim and have brown necrotic circles.

 

[HyDroid]

Sorry if these have already been addressed, but I'm just going to throw everything out there in case any of it helps.


What about your water?

If it is RO or distilled, you could have unstable conditions in your media due to low kH.

If it's tap, you could have absurdly high Ca and / or Mg levels which can cause burn or lockout, esp if you happen to have high Mg and are adding epsom. There are test strips to detect and distinguish between Ca and Mg if you don't have a local water analysis on hand.

Also, what about the coco? Some coco has to be rinsed pretty well... I squeeze the rinse water out of mine because if I just rinse it and don't squeeze the runoff takes quite a while to desalinate... So you could have potassium or sodium excess from this.

The drip clean could also be causing the coco to dump these salts unnaturally fast or otherwise interfering with the cation exchange in your coco...

And then it could just be the strain. Some are picky about ratios and nute strength.

Good luck!

 

[Puscifer]

Trust me, I'm having the same exact issue. The leaf in the pic was plucked 2 days ago and sat in a bucket thus the decrepit state. Also, my plants are 4 weeks into flower.
Some have leaves just like Tyga's first pic, some are further along worse. I promise you Tyga's leaves will look like mine in another week. Been dealing with this issue for several runs now. Tried mag/no mag, calmag, no calmag, tap/ro water, etc. Nothing works.

.

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Yea using Epsom Salts for anything other than an emergency is not recommended, especially in CoCo given the cation exchange. If you are running 6/9 you should have zero problems with cal mag. Adding anything to that will probably cause lock out.

Some coirs have been chemically treated, this is most often the case with loose pre-hydrated varieties versus compressed blocks. The treatment has been done to satisfy the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the growing media. As a refresher, “cations” are positively charged ions, such as Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, and Potassium. This means that the growing media will hold these ions in a matrix, releasing them as required by plants. There is one slight drawback to this. Until the cation exchange capacity of the growing media is filled, the growing media may hold positively charged nutrient ions, most notably calcium, in reserve, making them less available to plants. However, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the coir media is quickly filled, and actually assists calcium absorption in the crop cycle. To ensure optimum availability of all nutrients, supply additional calcium during the first week of growth or during the hydrating process of the coconut coir. Calcium supplement products are ideal for this. Some nutrients specifically formulated for coco tend to have elevated levels of calcium and magnesium while having lower levels of nitrogen.

Head's coco thread sticky in the coco forum is an amazing wealth of information as well and he goes into detail of coco and CEC.