can we talk genetic drift in clones?

[greenpinky]

My opinion is environment plays a big role in genetic drift with clones.... myself I have had a big bud clone for 30 or more generations.for about four years already. The clone was gifted to my from a friend
We would always joke how much this clone has been used and abused
he had it for 2 years before he gave a cut to me... ok now I have been pollen chucking for a year now just collecting the beans... I have notice it has lost a little funk and vigor
so I ran her out doors and recived results that was the same as indoor
so I ran into my friend three months ago and saw a 2 year old mama plant he had that had a week to go
this plant looked like the big bud I remembered. Not a huge difference but I know my plant. Vigor and the smell was back
So I brushed it off and today I helped the same friend harvest a clone I regifted. Him of my big bud clone. This clone was grown outdoors just like mine and was small and bland.so he ran his clone that was tooken from the 2 year old mom plant right next to my clone. No pics sorry he is a security net. But the plants finished kinda the same but the smell from the. Clone from the 2 year

 

[greenpinky]

Is way better then my clone but not a huge difference. But noticeable.... don't know what or how to explane this

 

[InstantKarma]

Genetic drift can not happen through cloning. It is when new genetic information is introduced to a species.

The only thing that is debatable is that clones lose vigor over time, which is in my opinion, not true. The genetic information is not changing, just the phenotypic expression is changing due to it's environment most likely.

 

[greenpinky]

So a clone could adapt to its environment? So the environmental factors could play a role in a different phenos being seen in my case... so is there no real way to know for sure. So when u got breeders that keept the same mom and dad clone for years. is there a difference in seeds made in a clones first year of breeding, then the 10 year clone?

 

[SneakySneaky]

Stress, improper care of your plants, and time all play a factor. A friend of ours has had the same train wreck cut we gave him for about 3 years now. He had a similar tale as yours. He was taking clones from stressed plants and ones that were in flower for about 2 years and now his cut is a shell of it's former self. The plants adapt, whether good or bad. You should get a cut from your buddy and kill yours. My buddy has given his train wreck out to people, and now there's a lot of patients with a fucked up train wreck and that's not cool.

 

[greenpinky]

Hell ya I got a cut right away...thanks bro

 

[offthehook]

How would this go in Nature I am wondering?

Since several decennia have I been keeping aquaria with self cloning plants excl.

Some worse plants will time after time become outgrown by the healthyer ones and hence'll become disadvantaged @ recloning themselves.

Hence cloned plants use a similar survival of the fittest methode as do seeded plants.

Meaning some will do worse, others will do better.

Under conditions of abundence, nature will pick the strongest ones to survive iow.

I merely see clones as the branches of a plant wich happen to be feno typically all different.

If you now take a clone from a clone, or a branch from a branch, you'll at first have no way of knowing what the fenotypical outcome from that branch will be.

Can be a 'good' branch, can be a 'lousy' branch... One's gotto grow it up first to see what it 'll become.

If you now take a couple of times a lousy branch from a lousy branch etc, You are going to end up with a hell of a lousy branch (clone) eventully, lol.

The only way to avoid this will be to select & label all the good clones while continue taking cuttings from only the best.

 

[Iron_Lion]

....

 

[SneakySneaky]

So a clone could adapt to its environment? So the environmental factors could play a role in a different phenos being seen in my case... so is there no real way to know for sure. So when u got breeders that keept the same mom and dad clone for years. is there a difference in seeds made in a clones first year of breeding, then the 10 year clone?

Yes a clone can adapt to its environment. Environmental factors do play a part, A phenotype is an expression of the genetic and environmental factors. There is a way to know for sure, grow a lot of tester beans in various rooms as well as a known cut.

 

[Goldy]

Genetic drift can not happen through cloning. It is when new genetic information is introduced to a species.

The only thing that is debatable is that clones lose vigor over time, which is in my opinion, not true. The genetic information is not changing, just the phenotypic expression is changing due to it's environment most likely.

Although i have no absolute proof..i would in theory argue with the first sentence. Genetic drift overtime CAN arguably occur with asexual reproduction Albeit much much more slowly than with regular sexual reproduction. Reason I feel this is that many organisms in nature only reproduce asexually..and yet have massive variance within the species despite this(which would have come about by genetic mutation/damage)..for example many bacteria and also organisms such as starfish only reproduce asexually. While these are not plants it is fair to assume they would behave similarly as they share the same genetic basics. However this should be only in theory and would not occur over the period of time that growers would be talking about...it ought to take a very long time.

Agree with the second part, if changes in clones due to their environment is indeed the case, it would seem the clone may be undergoing changes in its epigenetics..i.e. different genes are expressed due to the impact of the habitat or environment the clones are living in. Meaning the plants DNA itself is actually staying the same, just turning on/off already existing genes based upon stress/stimulus experienced in their environment. Take it back to the original environment where it was originally cut and it in theory would revert to how it had been before it "deteriorated".

The DNA in any branch or shoot etc should in theory be the exact same as anywhere else on the plant..the only difference will be cell differences depending on what area it was cut from. i.e. different cells in roots compared to stems.

 

[Arthritis_sucks]

genetic drift!!!!......Get a rope!

 

[Goldy]

genetic drift!!!!......Get a rope!

??

 

[Jbonez]

Never witnessed this myself, after successive generations, ive yet to encounter anything of the sort.

Genetic drift doesnt even make sense to me.

edited, not sure my information was accurate.

 

[Goldy]

Nah you were pretty much spot on. Twins at birth are more or less exactly the same in their gene expression and then later on if they've been in different environments they will have different gene expression due to environmental factors etc causing genes to be expressed or turned off. Their DNA remains the same however. Just that genes that were always there are being expressed differently.

Its just that genetic drift (as in actual different DNA) would take a very long time as there would have to be mutations that are not overly negative to the organism or it would die/get cancer etc. Every time someone gets cancer..that is caused by a bit of genetic material being incorrectly copied and being allowed by the body to progress rather than being destroyed as usually occurs. Just like how in school they drill into you that evolution takes millions of years..in actuality the mutations/incorrect replication occurs quickly..just that they aren't allowed by the body to continue..usually.

 

[Arthritis_sucks]

??

lmao....really?

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Epigenetics is a likely explanation. Check out this story on divergence of traits between populations of poplar tree clones caused by drought stress.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...f-two-trees-epigenetics-makes-clones-diverge/

 

[Goldy]

some American slang for hang it or something i'd guess? Not American sorry..was just asking...

 

[greenpinky]

Thanks for you great wisdom Guys. I too think in time environmental issues will let genes express different variations. But I have also wondered if different branches on a mother plant will have slight variations in gene's. Allowing different variations of the same plant


I watched a history special on the coffee plant. They said all to date coffee plants come from 1 original clone. The clone was sneeked out of a kingdom where the king found a plant that gave him energy. The king commissioned a huge green house for this coffee plant... then a guard of the kings saw the chance to take a clipping of the coffee plant and left the kingdom. The guard landed his boat in the carribean coast.

Where his family had the plant for many years before spy from brazil stole a cutting and it was passed on after... but that story blew my mind I was watching it before bed around one at night and stayed up all crackheads style watching the hole thing..

 

[Goldy]

It ought to be the same if taken from any point on the plant. I have seen multiple cuts taken that have had an individual appear very differently thought. like mutated leafs on a cut when all the others have been fine. Can only hypothesise that one could have taken a cut from a genetically damaged bit of the plant..or perhaps that some kind of infection has affected that cut but not the others.

 

[InstantKarma]

Thanks for you great wisdom Guys. I too think in time environmental issues will let genes express different variations. But I have also wondered if different branches on a mother plant will have slight variations in gene's. Allowing different variations of the same plant

Like Goldy said, every cell on the plant should have the same genetic information.

They just have different functions depending on which part of the plant they are located.