Auto Flowered Because of Root Restriction Budding Question?

[TGT]

I have a clone only that I've had in my possession for close to ten years now. For some reason it auto flowers now if slightly root restricted and it has never done this before. I don't believe in genetic drift, but something obviously happend to change the way she grows. Nothing else at all has changed; same grow room, conditions, temeratues ect. so I am stumped.

My question is, I have had the plant in a small pot and it is now budded slightly to the point I have pinky sized buds up and down where the cola's would have formed. I transplanted into large pots to correct this, but the plants are already large. I chopped the tops off because LST or tieing down would have not suffuced for thier size. I plan to bud them as ASAP, but was wondering if I should let them correct themselves with a couple weeks of veg in the ln new larger pots, but the problem with this is the plants will get too large again and I have others in the room ready to be triggered now or else they too will get too large. Or, should I just bud them the way they are and hope for the best?

Also, will they not stretch anymore because of this pre-bud? Is it inevidable that I will loose yield because of this?

Please, anyone with experience in this let me know what you think or suggest. This crop is to get me out of the hole and I really am relying on a good heavy harvest. Thanks in advance!

TGT

 

[supermanlives]

when that happened to me . i would transplant and give it a few weeks then flower. that preflowering was a good thing for me as i pollinated in veg and got me seeds. yup you can pollinate them preflowers in veg and still get seeds.

 

[SeaMaiden]

You don't believe in genetic drift..? Like it's faeries or something? Unfortunately, it's a scientific fact that cuttings/clones still experience genetic drift. Let me see if I can pull up an article for you.

Wow, finding the paper is proving much harder than I expected. Son of a bitch! Alright, I've found an article discussing drift in aspens, which grow clonally.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100817171601.htm

Pertinent paragraph, Paragraph 3, and I quote:

Although a clone can produce new members asexually and avoid meiosis (the stage where parental genomes recombine), it still continues to undergo cell division over the years.

As the clone spreads and new trees replace old trees, the number of mitotic cell divisions increases, resulting in an accumulation of mutations along the way.

Ally and colleagues used a molecular clock to estimate the age of individual clones. To do this they measured the number of accumulated mutations at microsatellite markers and calibrated the clock using an independent, geological estimate of time.

By coupling estimates of clone age with a measure of male fertility, they found that long-lived aspen clones do indeed suffer reduced sexual fitness with age.

This is in nature, and a natural form of reproduction for aspen. If it can happen there, why not here? I think your clones have changed over time and I know one grower who's been doing it for long enough to have made this observation to me--it's not good to try to keep a mother for years and years and years. He's had decades to work on this stuff, and he does seed starts, then clones them in time for a grow-out.

Now, IME, damn near anything I grow out tends to begin flowering irrespective of photoperiod or generational status if it's become rootbound. Happens pretty much every time for me. Thus, sea of green.

 

[TGT]

Thanks for the response! Actually, I shouldn't say I don't believe in genetic drift because I know it is possible. What I mean is I have never witnessed a clone changing over time and I have clones far older than this one that are exact to when I fisrt recieved them. I do take clone from a clone and do not keep mothers, so I wonder if this has anything to do with it.

Now that I think of it, this has been the most highly abused clone in my stable. I have numerous times took cuttings in bud because I procrastinated to take them and they always had to grow out of bud to start vegging again. The other clones that are fine had not had this problem because I don't as frequently use them as much. I believe this brings up a good point.

May be it is possible genetic drfit is more prone to show it's fugly face when a clone is repeatedly taken from bud stage. I do believe now if a clone is to be kept for a very long time, say over ten years, that taking the healthiest clones from the best growth zones and always in veg is the best way to keep them preserved. Sound logical?

This plant still produces great and just the same as when I first got her, the only difference is she pre flowers now when root bound and about a year ago this never happened. The only reason I am worried this grow is because I left her in small pots much longer than usual and would really like to still get my stretch when triggered. I don't know if this is going to happen anymore, but we will see.

The good news is this clone only of mine of Lime Skunk has been stabilized in seed form by me, so I have many seeds in storage and all come up ideantical to her. For my first breeding project I am quite pleased with my work - and suprised I did such a good job lol. She is the best plant for yield with quality and taste I have ever grown. Sure, my Bubba is a little more potent in a different way, but she also produces way less.

Thanks everyone for reading this and if anyone has anything else to add please do not hesitate - Thanks!

TGT

 

[SeaMaiden]

I think you may have hit on something, because the budding plant is, hormonally speaking, different from the vegetating plant. Hormones can act as epigenetic switches (as can insect activity, by the by, and it's been discovered that offspring of an attacked parent perform better; i.e. plants never attacked by insects 'lose' vigor in a sense), so it makes sense to me.

How do you feel about cutting away root material? That's what I would do, cut out at least 1/3 of the root mass and re-pot. Give some alfalfa and kelp tea, maybe a little aloe vera or something to help it form new roots a bit faster and proceed from there.

Good you've got some seeds! Bubba always produces a bit less, it seems to me.

 

[TGT]

Well what I did was just put them into larger pots, added another 1000 watt light and am going to veg for another week or so. Then I will trigger and hopefully get the results I am expecting.

Thanks SeaMaiden for the great idea to cut the root mass a bit, but all the work I have going at the moment I think I will try the easy way out. Probably won't work as well, but I also have ten other strains in the room to compensate for the lack in yield if that is what happens.

I really like this plant and as I said, the seeds I have produce fairly close to the mother, but it seems this clone always produces a little more than the seed version. That said, I only grew out ten seeds and five were male, so I am sure if I selected from a larger amount I could find something even better. Usually potency and taste in phenomenal anyways. Next grow I will try and see what I can get.

Speaking of seeds, I would like to donate a bunch to the server fund as I have tested them and they seem to produce great quality with excellent pop rates so may be after another test of say 30 or so seedlings I will be looking to donate. How would I go about that, anyone know?

Thanks!

TGT

 

[señorsloth]

i wouldn't think it would be genetic drift either, more than likely just old biddy syndrome...i mean these plants evolved for millions of years, never probably living past a year old, and yours is over ten years old...in pot years that's like 900 years...lol i dunno, a plant that has never ever intended to live forever suddenly is...i guess it's not surprising to me that those types of plants have developed some strange habits...

have you noticed it passing genetically to seeds? it makes me wonder because i had this issue with brand new ak47 seeds, the moms had to be kept like almost touching my bulbs to keep from budding, i moved them to the back for clones at one point, and despite getting 20 hours of light they started to bud, because they were farther from the light than before...it just kinda makes me wonder if Simon's ak47 parents are super old and developed the trait because of it's age, and is now passing the trait down the genetic line to it's progeny...

that bit about mutants forming through genetic drift is interesting, like it's natures way of creating genetic diversity when it is lacking...maybe it's a way to avoid the problems of inbreeding...like when cheetahs were down to 100 or so animals, they were all basically related...maybe at that point mutants start to form to create some diversity, so that they don't all share the same strengths and especially weaknesses...meh

have you tried air pots or beds? beds probably aren't very practical for mom's with varying nutrient needs, although i've never seen a bed get rootbound... have you tried upping the amount of light in veg? my ak had a similar issue though not caused by old age, but stronger light seemed to keep the buds at bay...

 

[SeaMaiden]

Once you learn about epigenetics and how that action switches genes off and on, switches expressions off and on, it will rather change how you view evolution, entirely.

Once you're done with that, go read Darwin's Radio.

TGT, most cannabis growers would faint right over if they saw what I do to plant roots when I feel it's warranted. It starts with a big knife.

 

[TGT]

Have you noticed it passing genetically to seeds? it makes me wonder because i had this issue with brand new ak47 seeds, the moms had to be kept like almost touching my bulbs to keep from budding, i moved them to the back for clones at one point, and despite getting 20 hours of light they started to bud, because they were farther from the light than before...it just kinda makes me wonder if Simon's ak47 parents are super old and developed the trait because of it's age, and is now passing the trait down the genetic line to it's progeny...

Have you tried air pots or beds? beds probably aren't very practical for mom's with varying nutrient needs, although i've never seen a bed get rootbound... have you tried upping the amount of light in veg? my ak had a similar issue though not caused by old age, but stronger light seemed to keep the buds at bay...

I have not had any of my seeds root bound but it is interesting you should mention this. I will try a couple seed plants in small pots while testing them and see if this trait is possibly transfered from plant to seed. I have noticed this to happen with Bubble Gum seeds in the past just as you have with the AK47. It would be an interesting experiment and also good to know if this happens with my seeds as I am sure future growers would like to know this important information and what not to do with this specific strain. I hope it is not passed geneticly, but I think you might be on to something.

I have not tried beds but was thinking of growing this way recently. I grow vertical and tree style and its time I try something new. I think you are correct in that it would work great for mothers, although I really never kept mothers and always take a clone from a clone, but still good to know for the future.

TGT

 

[TGT]

Once you learn about epigenetics and how that action switches genes off and on, switches expressions off and on, it will rather change how you view evolution, entirely.

Once you're done with that, go read Darwin's Radio.

TGT, most cannabis growers would faint right over if they saw what I do to plant roots when I feel it's warranted. It starts with a big knife.

Thanks for the information, I am going to read up on epigentetics and also find 'Darwin's Radio'. Sounds like interesting stuff - thanks!

TGT

 

[Hammerhead]

I do that to SM.. I let the pot dry up a bit it's nice and firm from the rootball. I cut the root ball in 1/4's or more. Hack it right off.

 

[TGT]

You don't cause too much stress to the plant doing this and none of the foilage dies off? Just curious.

TGT

 

[SeaMaiden]

I do that to SM.. I let the pot dry up a bit it's nice and firm from the rootball. I cut the root ball in 1/4's or more. Hack it right off.

Ayup! I.. don't want to discuss in the open forum why I do what I do to root masses, though.

You don't cause too much stress to the plant doing this and none of the foilage dies off? Just curious.

TGT

Nope! If you're careful not to completely rape the root mass, and take some care with the main stalk and the roots coming out of that, you can easily take 1/3 of the total root mass. It can take a few days, depending on temps and soil/media moisture, microbial activity, for them to get back into gear to the point where they start putting out new growth. But usually, IME, they just keep on truckin'.

 

[supermanlives]

i use a serrated bread knife just for roots now.

 

[TGT]

I never knew you could cut off root mass without losing vegative matter as a result - good to know. I could see how a serated bread knife would work well lol. Thanks!

TGT