sub cools super soil question from experienced users

[Scrappy4]

Toes, flushing is mostly in connection with growers using chemical fertilizers. The salts build up in the soil and since they are ussually water soluble the theory goes that they need to be flushed out at times in a grow.

In an organic grow there should be no salt build up that needs flushing away, and organic fertilizers are ussually not soluble so even if you tried to flush you most likely would be wasting your time.

In a organic grow that has a good ewc/compost content (20% is mentioned as ideal) the plant and soil microbes regulate the ph. We also use products with high calcium (lime, gypsum and the like) that also does help keep the ph in line.

So if you are growing in an organic style with a good soil mix that has high end compost at 20% of the mix, and have a light well areated mix with good organic inputs there should be no worries about ph or flushing.

If your growing using organic store bought liquid fertilizers, in my mind, your attempting to grow in a hybrid chem/organic style that may need some more carefull monitering of PH and depending on the solublity of the fertilizers may need tweaking.

I think it's safe to say most of us do not use store bought organic fertilizers because of issues I've listed and instead use dry meals and botanical type teas and compost teas for fertilizers.....scrappy

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Lost me on the 20 paces, have you grown using this? Or only sampled other growers product? Because its not at all earthy/organic as you describe, theres generally a pretty well actualized terpenoid complex if done right, proper ratios and good flush... im talking extremely aromatic as to what bud is supposed to smell like and more depth in taste- not a soil/dirt flavor. Sounds like you got some crap and are making quick judgements.

Apparently I represent an extremely small subset of the population. I can 'feel' fabric softener oils and skin lotion oils on my tongue, from people standing 20 feet away from me. It's disgusting. I can also smell and feel things on my skin that other people can't.

Essentially I'm a super taster (you can look that up) but also the connoisseur subset of the super tasters. A very small group of people.

I've tasted a lot of organics, mostly in california, and only a few have been smooth and super tasty. The rest tastes like earth and batshit. *sigh* No, I'm not making quick judgements... wish I was.

It's VERY important to match your amendments to your light strength and flower times. I know most of the population can't tell (and there are even non-tasters out there with 'no' sensitivity) but I definitely can.

Yeah... there are a LOT of organic growers that don't believe me. *shrug* I know me too well to care.

Stay Safe!

 

[true grit]

I don't use cool's supersoil. I make my own. I'm still learning everything I can about the soil making process...

there is conflicting advise posted here about flushing... The mantra of this organics sub-forum (at least in the sticky section) is there is no need to flush organic soil. Also, in the same library pH meters are of little use if the soil is done correctly...

this is contrary to what I've learned about growing cannabis... pH is supreme. Flushing is the golden rule.

so, my playfully smart remark of pHing cool soil was an invitation for a conversation about common misconceptions and the perpetuation of them.

Ya, i've tried just about everything and regardless of what folks say I still flush organics and still pH everything. Yes with enough humates, lime, etc your uptake range should be open enough to not have any issues, but i try to make this more of science than just an art. I don't wanna leave a grey area where i can control something, and in all the years of trial and error it def has helped. Can I get away with not ph'ing and lighter "flush" in organics, ya but the product isn't the same as doing everything to a t.

In an organic grow there should be no salt build up that needs flushing away, and organic fertilizers are ussually not soluble so even if you tried to flush you most likely would be wasting your time.

In a organic grow that has a good ewc/compost content (20% is mentioned as ideal) the plant and soil microbes regulate the ph. We also use products with high calcium (lime, gypsum and the like) that also does help keep the ph in line.

If your growing using organic store bought liquid fertilizers, in my mind, your attempting to grow in a hybrid chem/organic style that may need some more carefull monitering of PH and depending on the solublity of the fertilizers may need tweaking.

I think it's safe to say most of us do not use store bought organic fertilizers because of issues I've listed and instead use dry meals and botanical type teas and compost teas for fertilizers.....scrappy

This is a very good point, i havent made that many teas in my day but ive ran super soil for some time and just about every kind of bottled organic on the block. Perhaps most in this forum don't use bottled but many many of the skilled organic growers i know (even ACT, composters, ammenders) still rely on some bottled additives for help where needed. With Subs i've always started with a light mix, supplemented as need be and added super soil as needed on the next run- other wise you can get what hydro-soil was discussing taste wise and IMO a poor flush.

I'm definitely not saying you are wrong by any means or one way is better than the other but i am saying leaving things to chance that you can't measure (uptake range via lime/things that help pH, etc) is not very specific. And being more specific generally does make things easier from my experience. But I don't have problem running bottled nutes either so i may be on the opposite end of your spectrum lol. I've tried just about every method under the sun soil/coco wise and organic vs salts...and each time a different way has led to me learn more about the others than just sticking to one traditional train of thought. i may come off preachy but i def know i can always learn more!

Apparently I represent an extremely small subset of the population. I can 'feel' fabric softener oils and skin lotion oils on my tongue, from people standing 20 feet away from me. It's disgusting. I can also smell and feel things on my skin that other people can't.

Essentially I'm a super taster (you can look that up) but also the connoisseur subset of the super tasters. A very small group of people.

I've tasted a lot of organics, mostly in california, and only a few have been smooth and super tasty. The rest tastes like earth and batshit. *sigh* No, I'm not making quick judgements... wish I was.

It's VERY important to match your amendments to your light strength and flower times. I know most of the population can't tell (and there are even non-tasters out there with 'no' sensitivity) but I definitely can.

Yeah... there are a LOT of organic growers that don't believe me. *shrug* I know me too well to care.

Stay Safe!

Ohhh I totally gotcha now amigo. I will say after meeting buncha folks in teh game, trying a lotta bud across the board, ive found a lot of "organic growers" that don't produce that amazing of product and do produce exactly what you are talking about- earthy/batshit, etc. Definitely complex highs/cannabinoids, but taste/terpene not always on point as they'd think, and with all my trial and error I've def been in the same boat and grown some crap. That must be pretty nuts being able to pick up all the subtleties and pick apart some weed to the n'th degree. I'm sure you'd be able to pick up some of my fuck ups in a heart beat. lol.

i learned long ago about KISS and that more isn't better. perfecting your growroom environment is the key and it allows the plants to grow as they should and for you as a grower to do real trial and error and see how little of everything is needed for optimal product, what really works and what plain isn't needed that most think is necessary.

 

[Neo 420]

Here we go again....

@hydro-soil


If you can taste the "earhiness" of some organic grows what does chemical grows taste like? Can you taste the good ole chem's? What in gods name do you smoke? Even if you do have super duper taste buds, I think you have a bigger problem with chem's than organic grows.

@ the organic PH'rs

What are using to PH your soil with? Unless you got some serous water issues ph is not needed and can be counter productive. It's already been time tested and mother nature approved....

@organic flushers?

What are you flushing out of your soil? Are you half organics and salt? Are you also providing just enough N to last to harvest?

We all can have our own styles and methods in organic grows but some things are static and do not need "personal" deviants. Science 101 vs bro science".

Science wins every time....

I'll go back to my garden and continue trimming my no PH, no flush erbs.

BTW.

I do not Mean to come off descending or cynical but Why does these things persist. Has to be absoulutly hard for a newbie to come into organics and read all this conflicting information... I myself am a newb but thanks to good knowledgable folks and plenty of reading I do know most of the bro science that is around is exactly that. BRO SCIENCE

 

[Scrappy4]

Ya, i've tried just about everything and regardless of what folks say I still flush organics and still pH everything. Yes with enough humates, lime, etc your uptake range should be open enough to not have any issues, but i try to make this more of science than just an art. I don't wanna leave a grey area where i can control something, and in all the years of trial and error it def has helped. Can I get away with not ph'ing and lighter "flush" in organics, ya but the product isn't the same as doing everything to a t.

I doubt I can help you much, based on your writing you seem set in your ways' but here is some actual science written in easy to understand language.....scrappy

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

 

[jerry111165]

I just don't get it - I really don't.

Toes, if you're going to garden organically, listen to actual organic gardeners like Scrappy. Flushing is a ridiculous stoner science myth - as any grower what their science is behind flushing and see how many stupid idiotic answers you'll get. It'll be good for a chuckle, to say the least.

In a real organic garden, your organic matter; ie: worm castings and/or compost will help buffer and stabilize pH. Oyster shell flour, gypsum and a few other goodies also help.

Let me ask, what would you test? Runoff? Your runoff test would be just that - pH of runoff. A soil test may be completely different. As organic matter and amendments break down or nutrient cycle, pH can change and change and change, but will always maintain.

If you wanted to adjust an organic soils pH, how would you go about it?

If you construct a solid organic soil with decent levels of compost, castings, organic matter, you will never, ever have to even try.

Don't listen to stoners with nothing to back up thier ridiculous claims.

Best of luck.

J

 

[jerry111165]

Thank you Scrappy. Nice work.

J

 

[Scrappy4]

Thank you Scrappy. Nice work.

J

Thanks Jerry. As you probably know I pull that article out about three or four times a year. Sometimes I go back and reread it myself for a refresher. I found it several years back in the stickies. You can find a wealth of information on organic growing in those threads. One of them is a reading list with hundreds of links, many of them are scientific in nature, and some may be uncomprehendable for noobs, but if your like me you might catch on after reading it several times. The stickies contain more actual knowledge than any cannabis book or magazine I know of' and it's free, but you have to want to learn. On the other hand compared with , say composting, it is easier to open a bottle and pour, but you should at least know what your doing when you do......scrappy

 

[Toes.]

Super informative post Scrappy.

It was like a 1000 watt light bulb just turned on in my head.

 

[jerry111165]

Toes, Scrappy is one of dem ol' fellas that's been gardening about forever...did I mention he was old? Hehe

Seriously, though - if you construct an actual soil, a soil with a base of compost and/or worm castings and sphagnum peat, amend it with a few basics, such as alfalfa, kelp, neem meal and then add rock dusts (real rock dust, I'm not talking about greensand or rock phosphate), you will NEVER ever even need to think twice about pH - let alone c
test it or try to change it.

Stop and think about flushing for a moment - even if one was to use chemical fertilizers, do you really think that by rinsing the roots with water, that you would be removing any chemicals from the plant material itself?

The point of flushing is what?

Have a good day man. You're in good hands here with guys like Scrappy and Clackamas Coot.

Don't forget to buy the flushing agents! That just goes to show you how naïve people are and what they will spend their money on when told that they need to by a bunch of stoners. I guess I don't blame the fertilizer companies for selling these things - they're out to make money right! Lmao

J

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

I run super soils exclusively. My soil never goes dry. I amend and replant within 12 hours of harvest. I guess it stays in a constant state of cooking. My soil is old maybe 2 years old. I do no layering. I'm lazy, and because I'm lazy organics fits right in with me. I don't ph anything. My water is neutral. I set it and visit them when my alarm goes off, which depending on what week of flower I may not see it for 5 days.

My yields are massive. I dread harvest. My hands and arms cramp up after 10 hrs. of it.

This is the only instance in my life where laziness serves me well.

 

[jerry111165]

I run super soils exclusively. My soil never goes dry. I amend and replant within 12 hours of harvest. I guess it stays in a constant state of cooking. My soil is old maybe 2 years old. I do no layering. I'm lazy, and because I'm lazy organics fits right in with me. I don't ph anything. My water is neutral. I set it and visit them when my alarm goes off, which depending on what week of flower I may not see it for 5 days.

My yields are massive. I dread harvest. My hands and arms cramp up after 10 hrs. of it.

This is the only instance in my life where laziness serves me well.

Exactly. I cannot figure out why so many others just don't get it like it sounds like you do. It's just that easy.

Kudos, brother man.

J

 

[jerry111165]

Ya, i've tried just about everything and regardless of what folks say I still flush organics and still pH everything. Yes with enough humates, lime, etc your uptake range should be open enough to not have any issues, but i try to make this more of science than just an art. I don't wanna leave a grey area where i can control something, and in all the years of trial and error it def has helped. Can I get away with not ph'ing and lighter "flush" in organics, ya but the product isn't the same as doing everything to a t.

Several questions -

1. How do you check your pH?
2. How do you adjust your pH?
3. Why do you flush organic soil - or is it not organic?
4. How do you flush organic soil?

Thanks in advance. I'm interested in these 4 answers, if you would.

J

 

[Toes.]

Ya, i've tried just about everything and regardless of what folks say I still flush organics and still pH everything. Yes with enough humates, lime, etc your uptake range should be open enough to not have any issues, but i try to make this more of science than just an art. I don't wanna leave a grey area where i can control something, and in all the years of trial and error it def has helped. Can I get away with not ph'ing and lighter "flush" in organics, ya but the product isn't the same as doing everything to a t.

with a proper organic soil you wouldn't have a grey area. Even subcool himself says his with his "super cool soil" you don't have to pH.

I’ve developed an organic-soil mix that consistently performs extremely well, with very little guesswork involved (i.e., I don’t have to worry about pH or ppms ever)

8 large bags of a high-quality organic potting soil with coco fiber and mycorrhizae (i.e., your base soil- Roots organics, FFOF/FFLW etc)

25 to 50 lbs of organic worm castings
5 lbs steamed bone meal
5 lbs Bloom bat guano
5 lbs blood meal
3 lbs rock phosphate
¾ cup Epson salts
½ cup sweet lime (dolomite)
½ cup azomite (trace elements)
2 tbsp powdered humic acid

I do know this... If I spent all this time, working this soil. The last thing I would want to do is try and flush out any of those organic amendments I just broke my back getting incorporated into the soil four to six months earlier... this looks like a soil that can easily be re-used over and over.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

You couldn't flush organic soil if you wanted to. It's pointless. What is it that we expect to flush out?

 

[BlueJayWay]

^^^All that nasty poo in the soil LOL

I think there tends to be a bit of confusion also with flushing organics. Actually flushing organics, as mentioned, is pointless and detrimental, but some might be giving water only the last week or two of flower and calling that a "flush," even though they are only watering what the plant needs, and not gallons and gallons of water.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

^^^All that nasty poo in the soil LOL

I think there tends to be a bit of confusion also with flushing organics. Actually flushing organics, as mentioned, is pointless and detrimental, but some might be giving water only the last week or two of flower and calling that a "flush," even though they are only watering what the plant needs, and not gallons and gallons of water.

If that's the case than I guess I flush from the get go.

 

[BlueJayWay]

^^^ Exactly I flush on and off as needed haha, and definitely the last week or so.

 

[supermanlives]

ph haha ha .flushing ya thats funny/ cant flush out most organics and overwatering aint gonna help anything. sucks to be you hydro!!!! can you smell this ????

 

[true grit]

with a proper organic soil you wouldn't have a grey area. Even subcool himself says his with his "super cool soil" you don't have to pH.

Actually after meeting Subcool and asking him some questions and showing him some dank grown in his s.soil, he admitted that there is a pH range he tries to maintain when watering his super soil. That in fact his well water was a consistent pH and thats what he would maintain (if i remember it was somewhere around 7.0?, its been a few years...). So sure am glad yall are spot on about pH in relation to HIS soil. Also that there is occasionally Cal issues if you water with RO, but that again is taken care of by his well water. I did call him out on several issues i've noticed after several runs, and after looking at the quality of the buds he mentioned several things he leaves out of his online recipe that I still haven't seen him address online. Could just be his sketch, cracked out nature though.

Scrappy- yes I some knowledge of cec and learned a good bit more about it when using coco, this helped me understand that direct relationship minus the bacterial aspect. which also helped me call BS on shit that weed growers think. I also understand how humates degrade yada yada and chelates help with opening up cec and your pH range. Does this mean your soil is always within proper range of uptake for everything there? Not necessarily. You are relying on a symbiotic relationship and running with it. Does it work? like i said, sure. But does it mean you are growing as dank as others. Not always.

Neo- generally my plants have run out of feed by the end of a cycle, if im supplementing at all by the end, i stop and water only to finish processing whats in the plant, not just the rhizosphere.
And bro science? Its called trying a multitude of things and finding ways to grow better- science is def key but in practicality its not always as spot on as some hard headed folks believe. I normally wouldn't say things like that but after growing dank for years some shit just isn't always the case.
And with hydro-soil- yes, i smoke some weed from some of my friends that are "die hard, Cali organic growing all my life, same style, microherd, bacteria specialist, in my blood" types and it taste like organic shit. Same with people growing some chems- yes you can taste the crap. If you havent come across poorly grown weed, then not sure how much I can believe here- cuz shitty weed is rampant.

jerry- when i do check, it would generally be soil ph in relation to input ph. i find run off to not be accurate. As show by ag testing, plant tissue ph is directly relative to rhizosphere/input ph so I try to stay in range. anytime where i start seeing a lack of intake or something not blowing up about the time it should, i check ph. if you are on point enough with your plants, your room is on point enough and you have seen their potential using a variety of methods, you can see when things are slightly off.
And like I said there is difference in not wanting to, not having to, and choosing to after doing both of the ladder. I didn't say it doesn't work- go read what i said- i just said i try to work to a better product.

The point of flushing is not to wash away anything. I don't know where that has come into play, or who said that. You aren't trying to wash away organic materials like you all are implying. The point of flushing is stop/finish the uptake of nutrients from the rhizosphere, keep pH levels in range for uptake and allow the plant to finish processing what is in the rootzone and the plant tissue itself. Run some chem plants and use MOAB as recommended and see how a flush works. Again, from running a variety of methods and nutrients that type of shit becomes more apparent. If you only work soils, its prob not as apparent to you what it does to buds/finished product as well as final swell from that late push. My organics finish bigger and more rock solid than most cats chemmy nugs.

Flushing agents may not be needed like with chems, but flushing agents are just chelates, humics or somesort or other type of chelating material to open up the pH range to optimize uptake for those that aren't on point with pH and to allow the plant use what is left during the "plain water time"...mostly for those that have been feeding. I wouldn't use any for super soils though, agreed, you put straight humates into this mix for that reason.

TheycallmeJJ- Thanks for the input, thats what I like to hear about super soil- no layering and 2 years of use. Im going to be getting back to this mix, switched up a bit in beds and want to have to ammend as little as possible after each round and get back to it. What all do you seem to ammend each run or do ya just swap out some of the soil for freshie super soil?
I don't doubt yields, cuz i was pulling down 12oz-1lb plants indoors with this mix and minimal work.

BlueJay- Ya i don't water gallons and gallons either during any type water only period. Watering/feeding to run off is often pointless, learned that in coco as well. Especially since you aren't trying to just wash anything away.

To all- I'm not here to talk shit, but it is evident most of you just do organic soils and cheers to you- thats def noble. But if you wander into other realms of growing media, chems/organics, etc you do start learn some of the smaller things. Don't believe flush works as i stated, then def finish your grow in something thats inert like coco with MOAB and see how that works its way out of the plant tissue as you adjust feed points/quantity of it. Same with HPK. Same with bases, etc- you start feeding plain water/of chelate agent and you can watch the days it takes for the plant to work out certain nutes/additives...then you adjust the next round, feed things earlier or flush earlier. I like my super soil plants to run outta feed by wk6/7 and spend the last couple weeks processing whats left in the plant...not just water extra to wash shit. lol. ive pepsi challenged around the block and heard the same arguments about this shit from folks all over and im not always impressed- though i do occasionally find someone that blows me away (not argument/knowledge wise, but actual finished product wise). scrappy i know ya said it prob wouldn't help me, but it also seems folks here are pretty close minded on changing anything to see varying results. I like the Ronco set it and forget it too, but things can always improve. Even if its just getting your environment on point to maximize these soil results- which i bet most aren't even completely on point with that aspect.

Cheers folks, i do enjoy these discussions and like hearing/learning from everyones experience and opinions. lets all keep the ball rolling and keep improving.