Bio-Bucket Rez Question

[capndaft]

Hello all. First post. Took me 3 weeks of reading to catch up and learn how to proceed so please be gentle!

I'm going to be building a Bio-Bucket system with one bucket and a big rez for ph stability and so I can go a few days without worrying about water (float top up is unavailable)

I am going this route because of the growth potential in scrog, the healthy water/roots from beneficial bacteria, no air pumps, waterfalls, and overall ease of use.

I found a shop that carries grow stones and this is what i'll be using instead of lava rock. I heard that this stuff is better.... it's certainly cleaner and a lot lighter.... which isn't always a good thing.

First question i have regarding all this:

Can I take a small net pot and fill it with grow stones and possibly put a mesh bag over it and leave it in the corner of my rez (it's separate from the bucket) to house more bacteria and just make sure I have enough?

I'm using a 6" netpot built into the bucket lid and it just doesn't seem like I can get a lot of grown stones in there. With the being light.... I'll probably have to anchor it down to the rez but yah..... I was just wondering if anyone can see me having good and or bad performance with this idea..

whew.... long one. Anyways.... I look forward to chatting more in the future and, as always, your feedback is definitely appreciated!


P.S. System is as follows:

5 Gal Bucket (3/4" supply, 1/2 inch feed line, to a 1" drain back to rez)

Rez is 45 Gal, but for a 12" Waterfall I am only using about 1/2 that.

400GPH pump that outputs @ 3/4" then to 1/2 supply to bucket. Also goes up 12" from pump and splits from feed line to go straigh back down into rez for more DO

All for now.

 

[capndaft]

anyone?

 

[KryptKeepa]

That pumps pretty light? How many gallons are you going to use? Whats your GPH at the head required to top feed the buckets...

I use a 1200gph pump.... in 3 buckets... you need 7x water change a hour i believe... 10 being optimal..

The bacteria will be fine from the net pots, you dont need to overdo it. Can you use 8 inch net's? or even ten? The bigger the better.

Good call on Grow Stones.

That about takes care of that

 

[capndaft]

That pumps pretty light? How many gallons are you going to use? Whats your GPH at the head required to top feed the buckets...

Well it will be 5 gallon bucket and about a 20 gallon rez. The pump needs to lift the water 19" and still puts out 350 gph. That should change the water out 14 times a hour. Its just a one bucket scrog. Go big on 1 plant and take home a prize!

I didn't have access to an 8" pot which is what I wanted and I heard a 10" wouldn't allow me to get a 90 elbow and a through Hull fitting in the bucket without goibgbthrough the netpot...... or is there room?

Ill be using the kiss maxi bloom method with dry kool bloom for my nutes.... anyone do that with.Bio buckets?



Have you used grow stones? They seem to light to support anything...... but i guess that's what a big root ball is for.

 

[TheBioMaster]

I tried to answer your pm message, but it said your mailbox was full...fyi

 

[TheBioMaster]

Hi, sounds like you have planned this out pretty well.

First question, yes you can use the grow stones in a bag of some sort just make sure whatever you use has large enough holes in it so the microbes do not get trapped inside.

A better idea would be to make and install a bio-filter. I have plans for several different types made from pvc if you want it......

Basically you take about a 3 foot piece of 3 inch PVC, cap each end, and make the inlet and outlets BOTH on the same end and then fill it with a type of mesh like material, many things can be used for this....and then you can install this pvc bio-filter somewhere "inline" or even at the res tank.....many options available here.....

On the "inlet" of the pvc biofilter you connect smaller 1/2 inch PVC tubing that will extend all the way to the bottom inside of your 3 inch pvc pipe, what this does is creates a "water channel" inside the biofilter and the water is forced down to the bottom of the filter and the only way for the water to get to the "outlet" of the filter is through the mesh filtering material inside.........same concept on the other option type described below as well.....

You would need to beef up your water pump if this option is chosen...or add a second smaller pump dedicated to pushing/circulating water through the biofilter.....as I mentioned, the options are almost limitless as how to build and install them.....obviously having one or two water pumps both has pros and cons to it....haveing one big one that is sufficient is easier to maintain and adjust flow rates if needed. Just do not forget that these pump ratings (GPH) are rather imaginary as I have yet to see any of the cheaper non commercial grade pumps that push as many GPH as they are rated for.......so in most cases you will need a bigger pump that you really should need because of this non accurate GPH rating.

The main cause for this is that with the cheaper pumps, even the slightest bit of a load will sometimes cut the GPH down by as much as 50% or more!

This is also why you MUST run test to calculate your total amount of water and your circulation rates. Make SURE this is right or you will end up with a fundamental "flaw" in your system design.

Commercial grade pumps are rated with much better accuracy but cost twice as much...whatever you do, always have a backup on hand for pump failure.....

This second option is to use about a 10 to 20 gallon res tank and turn it into a big biofilter....easy to do, you just again make a "in" and a "out" side and then fill the entire tank with a mesh material, you use smaller pvc pipe to create your water channels and force the water from the "in" side to the bottom on the tank......so for the water to get out, it must travel through the mesh material....this option is MOST effective.

Things that work well for the filter material could be a mix of your grow stones and also those plastic type scrubbing pads that are shaped like a ball...they remind me a little of a "Brillo Pad" but obviously you would not want to use metal of any kind in your filter or anything that is not "inert"...these scrubbing pads are usually found at any grocery store....types of foam also make great filter materials........there are these things called "Bio-Balls" made out of plastic that can also be used, they are cheap and come in several different sizes....

Another great material to use in biofilters is called "Bio-Char" and it is amazing! You can make it yourself out of oak wood that you basically burn until black, but without using fire and only heat instead.....this process builds and forms a carbon structure......

If your going to use subculture from GH you will need to "crown feed" the plants. It is really hard to not over do bacteria inoculates this way....

You might want to consider a different product. There is a 2 part "system cleaner" called Z7 made by flying skull and this stuff is clear and will not foul your water.....part A contains enzymes that will eat dead roots and organic matter, and then the B part is a bacteria that works with the enzymes to keep the system clean and help roots grow.

A great product for microbe food is called Hydro Rush. This stuff is awesome and especially useful for systems with no air stones, as it puts O2 into the water as well as feed the microbes. They claim this product will put so much oxygen in the water that even a regular system like DWC would need NO air stones at all.

Let me know which path you decide and I can be a little more specific...I also have several methods of water treatment that you would find most beneficial I think.....

Cheers!
Bio

 

[TheBioMaster]

Water pumps - Make sure you get a accurate total of ALL the water that your system will hold. Make sure you count everything! Then test to make sure you are circulating that many gallons of water for a minimum of 7 times an hour, 10 to 15 is better....

Having enough water circulating can be the difference between success and total failure with constant problems. Cant stress that enough! MANY MANY MANY go wrong here under powering the system with a weak pump. Dont let it happen to you.

The other primary most made mistake is not letting the system prep for at least 2 weeks, I like 3 weeks better for a good strong start when the plants are added to the system. It is CRUCIAL that you allow enough time for bacteria colonies to thrive and multiply.

The next thing is water temperature, VERY important to make sure it is in range 24/7.

These systems are based on microbiology sub-systems, and for those sub-systems to work well and thrive, a proper water temp is needed and it is slightly higher than in other hydro systems...70F-72F is a good temp to shoot for, and 76F is the max suggested.

At below 67F the bacteria will not thrive as well or be very active. This is not a exact science, some diversities of species can stand lower temps and some higher temps....it will depend on the type of bugs in your environment...

If you are really serious about maintaining this type of grow system and you want to achieve "expert" levels, then a small investment in a microscope and some glass slides would be suggested. They are affordable and easy to use. This tool will give you the ability to spot check your biology levels, diversity of species as well as concentrations levels......

This can be useful in identifying the "type" of bacteria present in your solution and you can make sure you have "the right stuff" brewing in your tanks. It also can be used to target pathogens and alert you so that you may take the proper precautions or needed adjustments.

 

[capndaft]

Wow.... Thanks for the reply. Lots of useful information in here.

Damn i wish i knew about the z7 before I bought the subculture. I'll have to use it up before I try that product out.... but looks excellent!

I will look into hydro rush.... as I will need some type of feeding for the microbes..... I'm still new and don't know what you mean by "crown feed"?

as far as the bio filter goes..... I think an inline would be to complex for me right now and I'm trying to keep it somewhat stealth.... so maybe just a rez version of the filter as you had mentioned would be best. I don't mind sticking a 6" netpoot in there with grow stones and just anchoring it to the bottom.... under the water. I understand that having water be forced through the stones would be much more efficient for bacteria..... but I was thinking of putting the pot right under the waterfall from the pump that I will have shooting back into the rez..... this way it should stir the water above the net pot up a little and allow microbes to disperse through the system?

Also.... what about just putting a bunch of grow stones in the bottom of the 5 gal bucket.... then the microbes could just sit in there as well as the netpot and just hitch a ride back to the rez when they feel like it lol.

As far as the pump goes.... I paid 60.00 for a 400GPH pump. They are expensive here... up north...lol. But i did see a 1200GPH santerra pump on clearance for 84.99. Should I just return mine and get the big boy.... thus allowing for more water then I could ever need?

whew. Until next time.

 

[capndaft]

Also... The total water in the system will be 25-30 gallons. I will determine for sure once I fill the rez and get things running. At that rate with my current pump it should change out the water 13-16 times/hr. Temps wont be a problem. It gets cold here, hence why I decided to start it now. I can set the thermostat to maintain the desired temp. Mother Nature is my water chiller!!!!

 

[TURBD]

Good info Biomaster.
Hope this works out well for you Capn. I want to go bio one day.
Seems too good to be true for me though.

 

[capndaft]

Hey Fellas....

Been a while. Been building! I'm just missing my meter and I'm going to get the ball rolling. Getting a bluelab combo meter. The setup is great. It took some time but I plan things very carefully!

Fan noise is so low it's awesome.... hung it with the gf's hair elastics.... they are amazing at reducing sound/vibration.

-Back to Bio-Buckets-

What is involved in the initial fill? I have searched and not come across this yet....

Bio-Master, your advice is needed once again!

My plans thus far:

1. Fill system and let it bubble for 2 days to rid the system of chlorine. Then add Subculture and let it bubble for another week to get my bacteria

2. Add 1/2 strength nutes with Maxi Bloom and PH to 5.6 if required.

3. Soak Rockwool in ph'd 5.6 Water and put seed in shot glass with distilled water. 80 degrees f and dark for a day until taproot comes.

4. Plant in rockwool, place into the netpot within the system and cover to keep around 85% + humidity and around 75f

5. Hand water the rockwool with the 1/2 strength solution until I get three nodes and a small plant ( I think?)

6. Once seedling has roots that are fully into the netpot and water.... bring solution up to full strength or where I would like the EC/PPM

7.Veg until screen is 3/4 full then flip the lights to 12/12 and keep pushing on.

8. Add some kool bloom the last week.

9. Do I do a week with pure tap water to flush or just push nutes/bloom till the end and chop?

Basically just looking for a review on system I have thought up. Does this all seem in order and logical? Have I overlooked anything?

Capn

 

[capndaft]

Almost There! Plan of Attack....

Almost There! Plan of Attack....

Hey Fellas....

Been a while. Been building! I'm just missing my meter and I'm going to get the ball rolling. Getting a bluelab combo meter next week. The setup is great. It took some time but I plan things very carefully!

Fan noise is so low it's awesome.... hung it with the gf's hair elastics.... they are amazing at reducing sound/vibration.

-Back to Bio-Buckets-

What is involved in the initial fill? I have searched and not come across this yet....

Bio-Master, your advice is needed once again!

My plans thus far:

1. Fill system and let it bubble for 2 days to rid the system of chlorine. Then add Subculture and let it bubble for another week to get my bacteria

2. Add 1/2 strength nutes with Maxi Bloom and PH to 5.6 if required.

3. Soak Rockwool in ph'd 5.6 Water and put seed in shot glass with distilled water. 80 degrees f and dark for a day until taproot comes.

4. Plant in rockwool, place into the netpot within the system and cover to keep around 85% + humidity and around 75f

5. Hand water the rockwool with the 1/2 strength solution until I get three nodes and a small plant ( I think?)

6. Once seedling has roots that are fully into the netpot and water.... bring solution up to full strength or where I would like the EC/PPM

7.Veg until screen is 3/4 full then flip the lights to 12/12 and keep pushing on.

8. Add some kool bloom the last week.

9. Do I do a week with pure tap water to flush or just push nutes/bloom till the end and chop?

Basically just looking for a review on system I have thought up. Does this all seem in order and logical? Have I overlooked anything?

Capn

 

[capndaft]

Anyone?

 

[TheBioMaster]

Sent you a PM. It went through this time.

I sent a second PM asking you to post some pics of your system but it did not go through and said your limit had been reached......you need to delete or clean out your PM mailbox. Dont forget to erase the "sent" messages as folks usually forget to delete those......are you having trouble hitting that delete tab or something or are you really that popular here???

Your list looks ok, you just need to add a bio-filter if your going to inoculate the system as your planning.

Normally no inoculates are needed or used when prepping the system. The spores are already in your water and in the air....they are everywhere....

When you do inoculate then you NEED a biofilter as discussed in earlier threads to provide a "home" for your microbiology.

I would not suggest using subculture inoculates for a new user to this system. It is very hard to control the bacteria and in most cases it will over run the system. I would rather suggest you crown feed the subculture after plants are introduced into the system. It is not really a good product to use for prepping the system IMO.

Normally you do not add a inoculate when prepping this system anyhow.....just fill it will the best water you can get, hopefully NOT containing chloramines as they do not dissipate out quickly like chlorine does.

If your going to be using tap or well water I would advise you get a sample of your water tested so you know what your working with. Without this analysis, your just guessing and taking pot shots totally in the dark.

A lot of folks have issues because they never got there source water sample tested. You can even go thru this forum section here and look at problems and issues people have.....half of them did not prep the system properly, and the other half having problems are because they are adding to much or not enough of something.....guessing.

Your STARTING SOURCE water is everything.....you build both your nutrient profile as well as your microbiology profile based of this very important starting information.

Think of it like the foundation of a house your building......foundation has to be right and strong if you plan for it to support the house your going to build on top of it....

Same thing here just different materials.....your hammer is a ph and tds meter.....

 

[TheBioMaster]

Inoculating the system using subculture -

Subculture has clay in it for a carrier and this clay will not dissolve in water...ever.

To over come this problem of getting your system fouled by byproducts in your inoculates it is suggested to mix it separately.

A way I found that works really well is to use a 5 gallon bucket. Fill it with 3.5 gallons of water. Then add your subculture to the 5 gallon bucket and brew it with a air stone and small air pump for 24 hours to 36 hours.

After it has brewed turn off the air pump and remove the air stone from the bucket and let it sit for about 30 minutes to an hour. Long enough to let all the particles settle to the bottom.

Now carefully siphon off the top part of the solution leaving the clay and other particles in the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket.

You can now safely add this clean concentrated solution of subculture to your system as a inoculate......adding about 1 cup to every 5 to 10 gallons of water is a good dosage.

How you brew the subculture can be done several different ways....for example you can put the subculture in a filter bag that will keep the parts you do not want in your solution away and get only the bacteria.....you can also add a food source to the 5 gallon bucket when brewing and this is suggested.

If you do use a filter bag make SURE the pore holes in the filter bag are large enough to allow the bacteria to escape the bag...FYI.

Personally I think a filter bag is not needed and prefer to just let the solution settle and separate to the bottom of the bucket...and then siphon carefully off the top, but either method works.

Cheers!

 

[capndaft]

Yah I can only have 1 message in my inbox at a time! Must be something to do with being new still..... seems ridiculous.

Anyways.

1.Would I be better off returning (if I can) the subculture b and picking up the subculture m instead. after further reading it is intended to be used before the b to start the system I guess.

2. As far as the bio filter goes..... I'm only working with 1 pump and I've got the setup complete and would prefer to get away with what I got for now. I have a 12" inch drop coming into the rez from my return line and need that drop for dissolved oxygene as you know,m so what about putting the netpot with grow stones under the water, under where the return line splashes..... that way the water is somewhat forced through the netpot type filter?

3. My water source here is excellent. it is perfectly drinkable tap water. I get my PH meter in a few days and will test that of course before I start. I'm not sure on chloramines but I can find out. Who normally provides that testing?

4. I like the idea of brewing the subculture. Kind of like EWC Tea. I can brew this and add it to the rez a few days after it has bubbled off the chlorine no? then keep bubbling for another week and a 1/2 and then add plants to the system at 1/4-1/2 strength nutes?

5. I just heard that subculture b or m is a great way to jump start your system. I know that it is not required but I thought why not.... unless it will be detrimental.

6. What about either of these aquarium filters for a bio filter in the rez, while adding some o2 and keeping the rez water moving around. ...

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11147282&lmdn=Fish+Filtration+&+Circulation

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753028&lmdn=Fish+Filtration+&+Circulation

That would be along with the grow stones in the netpot. This way I don't need to add a netpot to the rez and the water gets cycled in the rez! Just spitballing here.

Again.... your help is appreciated. It's always nice to have someone who has gone through the process too point out possible errors before they happen.... trying to be as proactive as I can!



You raise valuable points and I'm certainly listening. I'm reading a few hours everyday and trying to be as well informed as I can.

 

[capndaft]

found out that I need 50 posts to recieve for pm's..... so until then we might as well chat here. Others can hopefully learn from my questions as well.

 

[TheBioMaster]

No worries bro.....I prefer the open forum anyhow...

Just to be clear, when you brew the subculture in a separate 5 gallon bucket, make sure that you brew in "batches" as these methods are very time sensitive.

Do not brew your subculture in that separate 5 gallon bucket for more than 72 hours or unwanted things will begin to grow and take over.

I usually like to brew a batch for 24 hours and then use. Try not to store it either, try and make only enough to use right away if at all possible. It is most potent right after brew time is completed.....

As a rule of thumb on brewing TEA's, for more bacteria favored TEA brew for shorter amounts of time like 14 to 24 hours......for Fungi you need to brew longer as they take longer as Fungi species do not multiply like bacteria does, but rather grows.

Also keep note that lots of Fungi species do not work out well unless you have a Biofilter for them to live in and some species of Fungi can only survive when attached to a root system of a live plant......in other words I would concentrate more on bacteria type teas as they are more adaptable to the living conditions of a hydroponic water culture system. Most bacteria species can swim around, Fungi species can not.

Anyhow brew a batch up then add a few cups to your filled system for a jump start!

That should be all you need to do for inoculation.

 

[capndaft]

Brewage

Brewage

Thanks for the advice BioMaster!

I will definitely be brewing a tea with the subculture. I was wondering if adding some ancient forest to the brew sock along with the subculture would be good also..... Like a super ancient dinosaur bacteria filled awesomeness tea....wheeeeeee!

I wouldn't mind some funghi..... I am going to get a aquaclear powerhead for my rez that will be loaded with the same growstones like in my netpot or some of the proprietary bio-ball type media for housing Bennies/funghi. not sure which media would be better? thoughts?

I'm pretty much ready to test run the setup and bubble off the chlorine and then add the powerhead and tea a few days later and then sit and wait for my brew to complete before planting.

Anything else you could think of that i might want to be aware of or know about?

Capn

 

[TheBioMaster]

Yep, the Ancient Forest will compliment the tea nicely......good stuff.

If you ever want to use the top of the line in composting and teas down the road a bit look at a company called "progress earth"....they make the best stuff!! This stuff called Genesis is off the hook!

Another product that works really well for a bacteria inoculate is OrganismXL, it comes in a powder form and is very concentrated with a wide variety of microbiology.

Anyhow I usually use several different items for a brew.....some things I like to add when on hand is Liquid Karma, and Seagreen.

I think you are probably ready for a test run......take that system out for spin and see what she can do....

Cheers!