Bush Load

[Shafto]

Shafto- I have seen your commericalgrows and admire the efficiency and out put of your vert set up. Unfortunately, knowing the inputs you use to produce your crop I wouldn't touch any of your produce. You should be honest with your customers and inform them that you use PGRs. This might affect your customer base but at least you will be telling the truth. This industry isn't just about numbers, frost, dank etc. It's about people, a lot of which need flowers to ease their pain. Get beyond the greed and remember that people that are burning bowls of your product have brothers and sisters just like you. The reproductive harm paclo can cause is more than concerning...especially when you consider people are burning and inhaling it

shame on GH. They know who buys their products. They should know better.

humbleguy, I appreciate your compliments, but I suppose you haven't followed too closely, I've never done a "commercial grow". I am running a medical room that I just built for the first time.

I have never used Paclo humbleguy. I guess you assume that because Paclo is not cool around here, and I posted some info to the contrary, I must be defending it because I use it, but that is an incorrect assumption.

I have looked into it for a while, and I will be trying it out in my small room at some point I'm sure. I'm just a little busy with the first run in the medical room right now.

The research I've compiled about using Paclo in MJ shows to me that it's harmless if used correctly. We're talking about dosages of 100X less than a dosage that is 1000X over the margin of safety for an acceptable dosage with a worker that is consistently exposed to Paclo, and that's smoking an ounce a day!

When I use Paclo in my small room, it will be my choice to see what happens, and the bud is for me. If I like the results and I want to use it in the medical room, I'll present the report I've got loosely together at this point to my patient and let him make the decision.

The only thing that really bothers me about this whole situation is while I'm actually doing research, looking at studies, actual numbers, and trying to get to the bottom of it using real evidence, there are folks who just saunter on in and repeat some useless hearsay bullshit that they once heard somewhere else on the forum. What is that worth compared to research? Not that mine is the best, but if you want to argue with me, at least go do your own research to argue back. Slinging your hearsay shit means absolutely nothing.

P.S. humbleguy, no reproductive harm from Paclo has ever been observed in any study that I have found. That's another forum myth. It is also NOT a bio-accumulator, that is another myth. Another fun fact, the LD50 dosage of Paclo is around 2000mg/kg of body weight. LD50 dosage of THC is around 1300mg/kg. Yeah, that's right, You'd need more Paclo to kill you than THC. Just for reference, something like caffeine is around 200mg/kg and nicotine is 50mg/kg.

 

[supermanlives]

the reals facts are anything that could cause harm should be avoided if possible. arguing on accepted levels is funny. i am not a lab rat and like anything people can have different reactions . like all those side effects from big pharm meds.one guy gets a boner ,another stays hard for 4 hours and another prob goes blind. lol just cause a lab rat didnt developed tumors or went blind at certain levels dont mean shit really.

 

[Shafto]

the reals facts are anything that could cause harm should be avoided if possible.

If you don't mind walking around with a helmet on your whole life. Might as well, avoiding possible harm right?

We've all drawn our line in a different place. If I wasn't confident in my abilities to drudge through those boring papers to pluck out the useful bits of info then I'd probably take a "better safe than sorry" stance too.

I'm not asking you to take my word that it's safe to use, just dispelling any complete bullshit and sharing why I think it's perfectly fine for myself to try.

When you're ok with spraying your favourite pesticide (even the "green" ones) multiple times per crop, in much larger amounts than you would use Paclo, which will have LD50's from about 5-20mg/kg, and then you shit all over something like Paclo with an LD50 of 2000mg/kg, you can quickly see the irony.

 

[cchem]

You may not see yourself as some kind of politician, but you sure sound like one.

"peddling PGRs" ...Listen to yourself. Tone down the propaganda knob my friend.

I know it's fairly new and cool to hate on "PGRs" and those PGR peddling bastards right? But do any of the cool kids even know what a PGR is?

Did you know it's just another name for "plant hormone"? That they naturally occur in all plants? That if you've ever used a kelp/seaweed product you've applied those dreaded "PGRs" to your plants?

Cytokinins, auxins, and gibberellins, all PGRs.

Shit, better stop having anything to do with all plants. They contain PGRs.



Before running one's mouth off at the podium it really helps to at least have a slight understanding of what you're talking about. If you're just going to read off the page you're going to look like an idiot.

Quit talking shit and distorting things - if anyone is politicking it's you. What we are talking about is synthetic, systemic Plant Growth Regulators (subclass Growth Retardant) that are classed as pesticides and regulated such as Paclobutrazol, CCC, Alar etc. You sound either like a shill or a politician. Haha and yeah mate I can assure you I know what I'm talking about.

 

[cchem]

Just to clarify - something I wrote on this.....

Defining Toxic PGRs (subclass, “Growth Retardants”)


PGRs are without a doubt the hydro industries most controversial products. However, some misunderstanding surrounds them.



The term ‘Plant Growth Regulator’ covers a broad range of synthetic and natural (organic) PGRs. Just a few of these pose a risk to consumers while others are non-toxic.



In very simple terms chemical PGRs in the subclass of “Growth Retardants” such as daminozide (Alar), paclobutrazol, and chlormequat chloride are potential toxins while other Plant Growth Regulators such as Jasmonates (subclass, “Growth Inhibitor”) and Triacontanol (naturally found in alfalfa meal and classed as a plant growth stimulator) pose no risk at all.



Many PGR's are hormones that are produced within growing plants themselves. Hormones are vital to plant growth and lacking them plants would be mostly a mass of undifferentiated cells. Because hormones stimulate or inhibit plant growth, many botanists also refer to them as plant growth regulators (PGRs). Botanists recognize six major groups of hormones: auxins, gibberellins, ethylene, cytokinins, abscisic acid, and brassinosteroids.



Auxins cause several responses in plants:

Bending toward a light source (phototropism)
Downward root growth in response to gravity (geotropism)
Promotion of apical dominance
Flower formation
Fruit set and growth
Formation of adventitious roots


Auxins (e.g. IBA, IAA, NAA) is the active in most rooting compounds in which cuttings are dipped during propagation (cloning). For instance, Clonex and other rooting compounds usually contain IBA (Indole-3-butyric acid) or NAA, or a combination of both.



Gibberellins stimulate cell division and elongation, break seed dormancy, and speed germination. The seeds of some species are difficult to germinate; you can soak them in a GA solution to help get them started.



Cytokinins are found in both plants and animals. They stimulate cell division. If a product is high in cytokinins and low in auxin, the plant will produce numerous shoots. On the other hand, if the mix has a high auxin to cytokinin ratio, the plant will produce more roots. Cytokinins are also used to delay senescence (aging and death).



Ethylene is found only in the gaseous form. It induces ripening, causes leaves to droop (epinasty) and drop (abscission), and promotes senescence. Plants often increase ethylene production in response to stress, and ethylene often is found in high concentrations within cells at the end of a plant's life. The increased ethylene in leaf tissue in the fall is part of the reason leaves fall off trees. Ethylene also is used to ripen fruit (e.g., green bananas).



Abscisic acid (ABA) is a general plant-growth inhibitor. It induces dormancy and prevents seeds from germinating; causes abscission of leaves, fruits, and flowers; and causes stomata to close. High concentrations of ABA in guard cells during periods of drought stress probably play a role in stomatal closure.



Brassinosteroids are a new 6th generation plant growth hormone known as a steroidal plant hormone. Plants possess the ability to biosynthesize a large variety of steroids, but it was not until 1979 that a hormonal function was demonstrated in plants. Today, about 40 structurally and functionally related steroids, known as brassinosteroids, have been isolated from natural sources. Brassinosteroids demonstrate various kinds of regulatory activities in the growth and development of plants.



Other than naturally occurring plant hormones, other safe PGRs exist (e.g. Triacontanol) – just some of which can be found in various hydro industry products. It’s important to note this in order not to demonize all PGRs. Quite simply, when it comes to PGRs there are the good, the bad and the downright ugly. The latter (“downright ugly”) fall under the subclass of “Growth Retardants” and include daminozide, paclobutazol, chlormequat chloride, prohexadione, and uniconazole.

 

[cchem]

And Shafto here is a more relevant paper than the one you posted on exposure to workers using paclo. Makes some interesting reading and. Let's at least if we upload papers make them relevant. Note:

Ample evidence from experiments exists that there is a suspicionthis material directly reduces fertility.
There has been some concern that this material can cause cancer or mutations but there is not enough data to make an assessment.
Limited evidence suggests that repeated or long-term occupational exposure may produce cumulative health effects involving organs or
biochemical systems.

 

[supermanlives]

i have no need for excessive spraying of anything . at most once in veg with azamax and once at onset of flower. thats only if essential oils dont work first. as long as your happy i dont care really what crap you use. i aint smoking it.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

The article I linked is one which I read about Paclo, I did a bit of math and figured out some of the numbers that could actually be consumed by a Paclo'd MJ crop and compared those to a study, for my own research into the subject.

Bio-accumulation. Nuff said.

Yes, you are programmed. Your view of chemicals alone and belief in the legal term 'natural' are evidence of that.

Your belief in 'safe levels' set by govt institutions is another.

You're simply defending your lack of knowledge to justify your use of a product that WILL harm people. Period. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but it will harm them. I'm not willing to do that and don't recommend anyone else do it either.

Stay Safe!

 

[ak-51]

Shafto- I have seen your commercial grows

Did you bold "commercial" because it has negative connotations to you?

I have looked into it for a while, and I will be trying it out in my small room at some point I'm sure.

Health issues aside, what do you feel the benefits and risks are of using a PGR? I have heard mixed opinions about the results. Basically what I've read says that it makes denser buds, but overall yield suffers. What is your use-case scenario like that makes you feel like it would benefit you?

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Basically what I've read says that it makes denser buds, but overall yield suffers.

Lower levels of THC and other cannabinoids.

Lower levels of turpenes (smell/taste).

Higher yields when done properly... but the end product is still crap.

Sooooo... basically dense bud that's less potent and doesn't smell or taste as great. Plus the bio-accumulation thing on the health issue side.

A fifth grader should be able to do the pro/con math on that one. I certainly don't have trouble with it.

Stay Safe!

 

[supermanlives]

this here is why i grow my own . i aint paying for chems and pestecides and pgr weed. hellllllllllllll nnnnnnnooooooooooooo. smoke em if ya got em lol. for me i got less of everything using that crap.i am sure you could dial it in . but it made me rethink everything . and i became a better grower.aint looking back.

 

[ak-51]

I would never produce anything I wouldn't want my girlfriend smoking.

 

[TribalSeeds]

Paclobutrazol (PBZ) is a plant growth retardant and triazole fungicide. It is a known antagonist of the plant hormone gibberellin which acts by inhibiting gibberellin biosynthesis

Wee!

Hooray, big word usage!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I would never produce anything I wouldn't want my girlfriend smoking.

Good for you! Excellent stance to take.

Stay Safe!

 

[opt1c]

for ornamental use only and people want to defend its use on cannabis plants.... really? really now?

this product is for people who DON'T CARE what they put in their crops and ONLY CARE about weight

END OF STORY

 

[supermanlives]

Hooray, big word usage!

word usage aside .clack rules and is a priceless source of info. one of the few i really like reading their posts. IMHO

 

[TribalSeeds]

word usage aside .clack rules and is a priceless source of info. one of the few i really like reading their posts. IMHO

I agree. Every time Im all fucked up and someone starts using big words Im quoting the rasta from red stripe.
Peace

 

[RubeGoldberg]

for ornamental use only and people want to defend its use on cannabis plants.... really? really now?

this product is for people who DON'T CARE what they put in their crops and ONLY CARE about weight

END OF STORY

pffff next you'll be telling me that my custom pesticide made from mixing avid, floramite and monitor 480 is immoral too!

 

[Guest 18340]

To each his own is what I say...

 

[opt1c]

pffff next you'll be telling me that my custom pesticide made from mixing avid, floramite and monitor 480 is immoral too!

who told you what was in my weekly foliar preventative maintenance spray for veg and flower?!? and you forgot the eagle20; it's for the patients you know