funny you mention vic . i am trying to sprout the last of my micro mix .
Hobby Breeding Good or Bad?
- Thread starter TopShelf
- Start date
K
Karma Genetics
So do you know, what happens years down the line, when in most made seeds regular ore feminished, there is a sprayed STS plant in the family tree.
I think it will weaken our Cannabis gene pool. Will make the strains of the future be more weak to diseases, Bugs, Less vigor, etc.
Not even talking about the Hermi percentage that will go up in the strain.
I say do hobby breeding, its a lot of fun, and a great learning road. My advice try to work with pure regular seeds, as base.
Now Before the flaming starts, i do think there is a spot for femmed seeds, as just to grow them out and smoke them i see no problem, I did find that Femmed moms rooth less good and are weaker against bug's . Its down the road 10, 20 years what i am afraid off ..........wat will have become of it then ?
I think it will weaken our Cannabis gene pool. Will make the strains of the future be more weak to diseases, Bugs, Less vigor, etc.
Not even talking about the Hermi percentage that will go up in the strain.
I say do hobby breeding, its a lot of fun, and a great learning road. My advice try to work with pure regular seeds, as base.
Now Before the flaming starts, i do think there is a spot for femmed seeds, as just to grow them out and smoke them i see no problem, I did find that Femmed moms rooth less good and are weaker against bug's . Its down the road 10, 20 years what i am afraid off ..........wat will have become of it then ?
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preach it KG!!!
Just look at the avatar - male and female - natural selection
dank.Frank
Just look at the avatar - male and female - natural selection
dank.Frank
the fem breeding path is at a very least a starting point for growers like myself who lack the breeding knowledge and space to work with regular seeds. when you factor in the "special pheno" highly recessive facet the advantages of using a proven mom as the pollen source has self evident advantages over trying to poke and hope that 1/100 to 1/1000 trophy specimen in a male.
i'm going to rely on the breeders to do the "proper breeding" and then i will refine the lines in the "kiss" and easy female pollen chucking method. seems like a good teamwork approach to me.
per the original thread question from another vantage point here is a pretty cool article that some might find very interesting:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_geneticfood85.htm
It's gotta be good - the more the merrier, especially when the herb becomes more openly available for all to share. The wisdom of the crowd invariably weeds out the worst offerings.
Growing out your own strains adds another level of excitement/anticipation; like the random-reward mechanism you find in many computer games there is always a feeling of optimism.
I have just crossed a compact, fast-flowering indica bagseed female with a thai import male. It is a complete pollen chuck with unknown heritage but is showing great hybrid vigor and the mother's aromas seem dominant.
I would be much more likely to find a winner if I used proven lines as parents (standing on the shoulders of giants) but I like to take a punt in the dark occasionally.
It would be bad if I just gave out these seeds without confirming intersex traits. It would be bad if I started calling it a chocolate thai cross, even though it tasted like chocolate, choc thai is a specific thai pheno selected by DJ Short.
Instead, I will grow out some seeds and hope to find a keeper or two then share the cuttings or carry on the line and then share the seeds = good imo.
Many hobby breeders have had their work commercialized in the world of horticulture. I see regular seed companies inviting customers to send in new lines, sports and mutants for evaluation.
Now we have mapped the cannabis genome is there any data to identify male-specific genes? I think this is an important question to ask if breeders are going to breed with females only.
Growing out your own strains adds another level of excitement/anticipation; like the random-reward mechanism you find in many computer games there is always a feeling of optimism.
I have just crossed a compact, fast-flowering indica bagseed female with a thai import male. It is a complete pollen chuck with unknown heritage but is showing great hybrid vigor and the mother's aromas seem dominant.
I would be much more likely to find a winner if I used proven lines as parents (standing on the shoulders of giants) but I like to take a punt in the dark occasionally.
It would be bad if I just gave out these seeds without confirming intersex traits. It would be bad if I started calling it a chocolate thai cross, even though it tasted like chocolate, choc thai is a specific thai pheno selected by DJ Short.
Instead, I will grow out some seeds and hope to find a keeper or two then share the cuttings or carry on the line and then share the seeds = good imo.
Many hobby breeders have had their work commercialized in the world of horticulture. I see regular seed companies inviting customers to send in new lines, sports and mutants for evaluation.
Now we have mapped the cannabis genome is there any data to identify male-specific genes? I think this is an important question to ask if breeders are going to breed with females only.
crossing hybrids has given me quite a few keepers over the years. but you have to sort through lots of plants. breeding stable strains gives me less variety. but i aint trying to stabilize anything just looking for new moms.
Adze
Member
Gingerale,
Do you think a few quotes from Tom Hill will put this shit to rest?
TomHill
Senior Member
"The biggest negative of selfing is that you'll get a bunch of know-nothing morons hammering you for things that they do not understand. Seriously though, inbreeding depression will be the biggest obstacle, but one that is quite easily bypassed through numbers. IE take several shots at it, expecting only a couple to hit paydirt. This is all in the manual and should not be news to any breeder imo.
There are several misconceptions regarding breeding by way of reversals.
Here are a few:
That the lot being female is the entirety of the techniques worth. This is the lamest imo, it's but a single side effect of this very powerful breeding tool.
That it is somehow a replacement for asexual reproduction/clones/identical reproduction. Nothing could be further from the truth, recombination still occurs with this technique.
That it eliminates the ability of the customer or other breeders to continue breeding with the stock. Ridiculous, it does no such thing.
That it narrows the genepool. Nonsense, as stated earlier that is a product of numbers, not technique.
That it somehow increases the rate of intersex individuals within a population. This is nothing more than fear mongering with zero science behind it.
I could go on all day for the amount of bullshit that has piled up on this subject is deep as hell. On the one hand we have folks badmouthing the practice as a hack as anybody can do it. In the same sentence these same folks are crying about being unable to figure out how to proceed from there. It's all ridiculous and warrants zero sympathy.
What I see a lot of is breeders poddy-mouthing these techniques with all kind of crap about it creating intersex individuals so what do they do. They instead go off on some backcrossing program often 3 consecutive backcrosses using the elite clone as the recurrent parent and where does that bring them? <To the exact same place a single cycle of selfing would have brought them - intersex plants and all, lol. At least with the selfing, we could have actually made some improvements while we were pissing around. -Tom
Quite frankly, I can't imagine anything holding a knowledgeable breeder back from gynoecious selections, excepting an ignorant customer base. -Tom
With zero doubt in my mind I can tell you that you will make overwhelmingly more genetic progress by using pollen donors of known phenotypic worth (reversed females) than by using pollen from the same number of individuals of unknown phenotypic worth (males) with regards to the matter at hand (drug type cannabis).
It does not limit phenotypic variation either that was misconception #4. That is a product of numbers, not technique. IE, there is no mathematical difference between 1:1 male/female matings and 1:1 female/female matings, they both narrow variation within a given population at the exact same rate." -T
Of course, that's just one opinion, but I'm inclined to believe Tom.
Do you think a few quotes from Tom Hill will put this shit to rest?
TomHill
Senior Member
"The biggest negative of selfing is that you'll get a bunch of know-nothing morons hammering you for things that they do not understand. Seriously though, inbreeding depression will be the biggest obstacle, but one that is quite easily bypassed through numbers. IE take several shots at it, expecting only a couple to hit paydirt. This is all in the manual and should not be news to any breeder imo.
There are several misconceptions regarding breeding by way of reversals.
Here are a few:
That the lot being female is the entirety of the techniques worth. This is the lamest imo, it's but a single side effect of this very powerful breeding tool.
That it is somehow a replacement for asexual reproduction/clones/identical reproduction. Nothing could be further from the truth, recombination still occurs with this technique.
That it eliminates the ability of the customer or other breeders to continue breeding with the stock. Ridiculous, it does no such thing.
That it narrows the genepool. Nonsense, as stated earlier that is a product of numbers, not technique.
That it somehow increases the rate of intersex individuals within a population. This is nothing more than fear mongering with zero science behind it.
I could go on all day for the amount of bullshit that has piled up on this subject is deep as hell. On the one hand we have folks badmouthing the practice as a hack as anybody can do it. In the same sentence these same folks are crying about being unable to figure out how to proceed from there. It's all ridiculous and warrants zero sympathy.
What I see a lot of is breeders poddy-mouthing these techniques with all kind of crap about it creating intersex individuals so what do they do. They instead go off on some backcrossing program often 3 consecutive backcrosses using the elite clone as the recurrent parent and where does that bring them? <To the exact same place a single cycle of selfing would have brought them - intersex plants and all, lol. At least with the selfing, we could have actually made some improvements while we were pissing around. -Tom
Quite frankly, I can't imagine anything holding a knowledgeable breeder back from gynoecious selections, excepting an ignorant customer base. -Tom
With zero doubt in my mind I can tell you that you will make overwhelmingly more genetic progress by using pollen donors of known phenotypic worth (reversed females) than by using pollen from the same number of individuals of unknown phenotypic worth (males) with regards to the matter at hand (drug type cannabis).
It does not limit phenotypic variation either that was misconception #4. That is a product of numbers, not technique. IE, there is no mathematical difference between 1:1 male/female matings and 1:1 female/female matings, they both narrow variation within a given population at the exact same rate." -T
Of course, that's just one opinion, but I'm inclined to believe Tom.
Interesting read this thread has been. I've been wondering very much about feminized seeds and herma's, as I've had a lot of them.
So what it comes down to: all male and female plants can go intersex, but there is a difference in how much of the hormones/stress they need to do it. "True"(whether that exists or not, aka decent breeding material) females/males are almost impossible to herm.
So feminized seeds are not worse than regular seeds if they are very well tested and made with the best stressresistant parents, just like decent regular seeds should be.
Fact is most breeders that concentrate on feminized seeds/making elite crosses/basically not doing any breeding work at all, just crossing stuff and selling it for way too much money(if you see the lack of work and love they put into it!) and they are ruining the market with their weak crosses.
Most(American?) elite clones seem to come forth from seeds in bud, thus likely easily to herm. They are obviously shit for breeding but because it carries a fancy name/"trusted" genetics everybodies breeding with them and it sells like hot bread.
I'm growing KandyKush*skunk and I recently bought a bag of KandyKush(OGKush*Trainwreck) for way too much money. There are actually banana's and immature seeds in the bud. The first hits taste ok, not even flushed well, until you hit the seeds. My KandyKush*Skunk also hermed somewhat. Maybe they crossed it with skunk to reduce the herma tendency?
This is some bullshit, then breeders are using the "you shouldn't stress your plants, it might cause them to herm" excuse because they're too fixed on the money to breed decent stuff or actually test what they "breed".
I read in a real old book about marijuana growing how people first discovered feminized seeds. They were talking about inducing male flowers on female plants by changing the lightcycle, throwing the plants through the window, kicking the shit out of them, etc.
That seems like a lot more effort than what I've been doing to get nanners.
I definitely will not be using the selfed seeds, the hermaxfem seeds or the regularxherma seeds I created(mostly by accident) now I know this.
And I will still buy feminized seeds, but not from most breeders that seem to be in it for a quick buck. Nor will I ever buy elite clone crosses again if I know they were found in bagseed or other shenanigans. I've got about 96 more KandyKush*Skunk seeds that were going to be my first experiments for breeding - thank god I got them real cheap.
I've done 6 grows, and all but one had seeds, from two grows it was a very minor herm I didn't even notice(2 and 5 seeds respectively), the three others were a constant aching stomache feeling thinking all my hard work and weed were going to be ruined with herma seeds. I never want that feeling again. I don't want to see banana's sticking out of my buds.
From now on, I'll only be looking for wellbred, tested genetics, not just fancy names or genetics that sound interesting. Fuck that hype shit, and everyone that tries to push it.
Yes I am a big fan of Regular seeds, and I give much credit and most my business to breeders who offer reg seeds, like Mr. Nice, Rare Dankness, ******s. I like BOG too, however I'm not so much a fan of backcrossing either I don't think, and that's what worries me about getting his sourbubble. I would LOVE to get F1 sourbubble, or even bx1, but I'm afraid to ask what bx he's up to now.... So I will probably want to try something with new blood mixed in like SSK. I'm not sure which is worse, fems or backcrossing, but I know surely that S1s are the worst!
I know that it is limited plant count for patients that drives the fem market. If you're only allowed to have 6 plants, you don't want to risk 1/2 of them being male, you want to KNOW they're all going to be female. I think it may be OK for situations like this, but when a popular strain is ONLY available in feminized, you know that some people eventually are going to be breeding with it, and that's not good. I'd really like to see all breeders offering reg versions of every feminized line they sell, or at least as many as is possible. Breeders who offer all or mostly all feminized seeds in their line up lose a lot of respect from me.
I know that it is limited plant count for patients that drives the fem market. If you're only allowed to have 6 plants, you don't want to risk 1/2 of them being male, you want to KNOW they're all going to be female. I think it may be OK for situations like this, but when a popular strain is ONLY available in feminized, you know that some people eventually are going to be breeding with it, and that's not good. I'd really like to see all breeders offering reg versions of every feminized line they sell, or at least as many as is possible. Breeders who offer all or mostly all feminized seeds in their line up lose a lot of respect from me.
thelaughingman
Active member
Wow....you're just FULL of misinformation...
Says who? I happen to think it's a damn good thing. History will show that feminized breeding was the best thing to ever happen to cannabis....other than full legalization, and until the genome is decoded and we can make exactly the plant (or tree...or vine...or microbe) we want.
BOG is on bx3/4 he wont be going to 5... after the bx3 are gone it will only be 4. Thats what I have herd anyway...I also agree with TH.. I have recently crossed my GDP S1 and Peyote Purple S1...Both of there offspring where better then the parents. I have since discarded the moms and replaced them with there children 
Im now doing some bx with these to improve taste and aromas.
When I was growing the PP S1 I found a male in this s1 line. Not a herm no naners a pure male.. I have made PP s2? with this male.. I will be working these at a later time. I dont know if the offspring will be fem seeds or regular seeds. IMO the seeds will be regular.... IMO breding with fem's is fine. Just make your selections carefully..
FYI
ScienceDaily (Oct. 24, 2011) — A team of Canadian researchers has sequenced the genome of Cannabis sativa, the plant that produces both industrial hemp and marijuana, and in the process revealed the genetic changes that led to the plant's drug-producing properties.
Im now doing some bx with these to improve taste and aromas. When I was growing the PP S1 I found a male in this s1 line. Not a herm no naners a pure male.. I have made PP s2? with this male.. I will be working these at a later time. I dont know if the offspring will be fem seeds or regular seeds. IMO the seeds will be regular.... IMO breding with fem's is fine. Just make your selections carefully..
FYI
ScienceDaily (Oct. 24, 2011) — A team of Canadian researchers has sequenced the genome of Cannabis sativa, the plant that produces both industrial hemp and marijuana, and in the process revealed the genetic changes that led to the plant's drug-producing properties.
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T
THE PABLOS
Never a day...that I worry
S
scai
I wonder why people see hermies as a such a bad thing?
I think it's one wonderful way of assuring that plant can't go extinct? So why don't people see it as a chance, instead of a bad thing.
Have heard that some breeders see hermies as good way to make something different?
I think it's one wonderful way of assuring that plant can't go extinct? So why don't people see it as a chance, instead of a bad thing.
Have heard that some breeders see hermies as good way to make something different?
T
THE PABLOS
I don't see them as a bad thing. It's the selfishness of cultivation that deems them unfit. Can't say I agree with it.
Grobot2010
Member
Oh, Heaven forbid you should end up with something like this!
I feel that it is the best thing we could be doing for the gene pool, as well as increasing growers' experience with the cannabis plant, conserving/protecting the species, exploring new hybrids, and diversifying the gene pool. How wonderful is it that you can call it a hobby!
One thing I've never quite understood is this: why are so many convinced hermiphroditism is 1) a danger 2) is in any way being proliferated by human breeding practices in a way that has a significant effect on wild cannabis or species in general.
The fact that intersex traits are present in the first place is an indication that it serves a function in a biological sense for the species. Sensimilla is a man made invention less than 100 years old, compared to more than a few millennia of human cultivation. Feminized seeds hold a place as a tool for the cunning and learned in breeding practices. Like any tool, you have to weild it correctly or you end up with a sore thumb (or knoggin
)
Back on topic: Hobby breeding is a great way to educate yourself on the finer points of growing this plant, and it's how I plan to continue my own education.
The fact that intersex traits are present in the first place is an indication that it serves a function in a biological sense for the species. Sensimilla is a man made invention less than 100 years old, compared to more than a few millennia of human cultivation. Feminized seeds hold a place as a tool for the cunning and learned in breeding practices. Like any tool, you have to weild it correctly or you end up with a sore thumb (or knoggin
)Back on topic: Hobby breeding is a great way to educate yourself on the finer points of growing this plant, and it's how I plan to continue my own education.
im a self confessed pollen chucker, ive given away 100's of seeds me and my mates have made over the years, nothing like growing weed from a seed youve made yourself or seeing some one grow them out well and enjoy them
in my opinion hobby breeding is the way to go!!! without hobby breeding alot of land races of yesteryear and variations of those would have disappeared... also due to the sheer ammount of hobby breeding a higher variety is preserved. and last and most important, many hobby breeders and pollen chuckers often produce and preserve crosses comercial seedbanks would never bother with (long flowering sativas, low yielders, ...), plus in the last ten years it seems to me that hobby breeders often do a better job than many comercial "seedbanks"
blessss
blessss
