Water for Organics

[hades]

Hi everyone,

I just went through a lot of reading all related to water in gardening. I grow organically using dry amendments and my microherd is important to me. In the past my water treatment facility only used Chlorine and it would be fine after sitting out for a few days. They have since switched to using Chloramine which is not so easy to evaporate off (I'm not even sure how long this would take, couldn't find any solid answers just that it's not as easy as Chlorine). I am currently using water from a rain barrel but will need to break that down when Winter comes along.

Basically I'm looking for experience or advice on two things. The first is where can I get a decent water test done and what should I be looking for? I'd like to test the water in the rain barrel and just have a good place to do it if I ever feel the urge.

The second is what kind of filtration system do most organic growers use? I know that I have read more than once that RO can mess with organic gardening, but I have not been able to find where I have read that, or any information about what to look out for when using RO with indoor organic gardening. You can get the two pre-filters normally used in RO systems and they will pull the Chloramine from the water, but I'm really interested in getting a full on RO system.

Then I just had two quick questions. How much do you all worry about the temperature of the water you give your plants? Hotter water has a higher surface tension so it can be absorbed by the soil more easily, but colder water has a higher potential Dissolved Oxygen level. Also, I've read that too cold of water (like straight from the tap) can basically shock plant roots. Is there an optimal temperature for organic soil indoor cannabis? I know I've read that roots grow best in soil temps of ~75, but that seems a little hot for the water temp.....

So.......do you all use a surfactant to lower surface tension? And.....do you all make sure to raise Dissolved Oxygen before giving it to the plants? I'm specifically interested in using H202 to increase it above normal maximum levels. Supposedly H202 in very small doses will do no harm to soil micro life and they would actually benefit from the increased Oxygen....

And lastly.......if you all know of any drawbacks to using RO water in organic gardening please let me know....I swear I've read it more than once and just need to know I'm not completely crazy....

 

[Hammerhead]

1. ph/TDS pEN your water just needs to be low in TDS
2. RO water.. If your tap water is less the 100ppm I would not worry about getting a RO system.
3. hot water is bad. I keep it at room temp in my recirculating rez for soil. Hydro is 65f below 50 and above 85 is bad
4. RO has a hard time giving acurate PH but if your using organics that does not matter. Most Organic growers dont measure there ph/ec.......

 

[Scrappy4]

Water is good. I think your over thinking it a bit. I have read a little bit of organic matter, like some ewc, will take care of most city water nasties. Still not sure? Try it on your wife's house plants for a test. If they die blame the cat, and do something about your water' lol.

And a lot of this is just common sense. Even 90 degrees outside I have given plants water that was damn near ice water from a little creek, and the plants never complained a bit, heck they might get snow before their done here. Hot water on cool roots might be a problem, IDK. But a little stress late can be a good thing.

I think good water is important, but in organic grows and using high end compost in your mix, the soil is very forgiving, and you rarely hear of water problems, like say hydro growing. I would think more like, is this water alright for the soil microbes, and remember, some of them can eat gasoline, lol. Scrappy

 

[SeaMaiden]

Hi everyone,

I just went through a lot of reading all related to water in gardening. I grow organically using dry amendments and my microherd is important to me. In the past my water treatment facility only used Chlorine and it would be fine after sitting out for a few days. They have since switched to using Chloramine which is not so easy to evaporate off (I'm not even sure how long this would take, couldn't find any solid answers just that it's not as easy as Chlorine). I am currently using water from a rain barrel but will need to break that down when Winter comes along.

K, chloramine is chlorine bonded with ammonia. You must break the bond chemically, or you can use filtration. I will advocate for a chemical break. Go to the chemistry store dot com, get yourself a 2lb bucket of sodium thiosulfate. Mix that into a 3% solution, and you can then use it at a rate of approximately 1tsp/gal of water to be de-chloraminated.

Make sense?

Basically I'm looking for experience or advice on two things. The first is where can I get a decent water test done and what should I be looking for? I'd like to test the water in the rain barrel and just have a good place to do it if I ever feel the urge.

Since you're on muni supplies they should be able to provide you with a detailed water report.

Since you're growing organically, you actually don't need to be terribly concerned with the actual parameters, especially if you're growing in-ground where the plants and soil biology can most easily interact.

The second is what kind of filtration system do most organic growers use? I know that I have read more than once that RO can mess with organic gardening, but I have not been able to find where I have read that, or any information about what to look out for when using RO with indoor organic gardening. You can get the two pre-filters normally used in RO systems and they will pull the Chloramine from the water, but I'm really interested in getting a full on RO system.

For indoor cultivation I'll use RO/DI or rain water. Don't forget that an RO unit's efficacy can be increased by using either a permeate or booster pump, and don't forget also that the waste water is still cleaner than what went into the unit, so don't let that water go to waste!

Then I just had two quick questions. How much do you all worry about the temperature of the water you give your plants? Hotter water has a higher surface tension so it can be absorbed by the soil more easily, but colder water has a higher potential Dissolved Oxygen level. Also, I've read that too cold of water (like straight from the tap) can basically shock plant roots. Is there an optimal temperature for organic soil indoor cannabis? I know I've read that roots grow best in soil temps of ~75, but that seems a little hot for the water temp.....

I don't worry about water temperature. My plants are on drippers, they get the water directly from the well, which means it's pretty cold and very hard and alkaline.

However, the thing with temperatures has to do with everything, pretty much, but mostly availability of nutrients below a certain temperature. IIRC, 55*F is the lowest you should try to FEED.

So.......do you all use a surfactant to lower surface tension? And.....do you all make sure to raise Dissolved Oxygen before giving it to the plants? I'm specifically interested in using H202 to increase it above normal maximum levels. Supposedly H202 in very small doses will do no harm to soil micro life and they would actually benefit from the increased Oxygen....

It's used in aquatics to help oxygenate water when organisms are stressed, especially after shipping. You use 3% solution at a low rate, around 5mls/gal water. This is safe for corals and other invertebrates, which is a good corollary here.

And lastly.......if you all know of any drawbacks to using RO water in organic gardening please let me know....I swear I've read it more than once and just need to know I'm not completely crazy....

I personally think it can be overkill. If your plants are showing no need for adjustment, then my mantra is if it ain't broke....

Ya dig?

 

[Granger2]

Soil, no matter how good is not forgiving of chloramine. It will kill your microherd. The main thing about RO is that you will likely need to compensate for the lack of secondary nutrients [Ca, Mg] and micronutrients. Good luck. -granger

 

[ClackamasCootz]

RO is not required to neutralize Chloramine

 

[Hammerhead]

I have read that Vitamin C will neutralize Chloramine

 

[Scrappy4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

From wiki
Removing chloramine from water
Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.
Boiling the water for 20 minutes will remove chloramine and ammonia. Additionally, many foods and drinks rapidly neutralize chloramine without the necessity of boiling (e.g., tea, coffee, chicken stock, orange juice, etc.). SFPUC determined that 1000 mg of Vitamin C (tablets purchased in a grocery store, crushed and mixed in with the bath water) remove chloramine completely in a medium size bathtub without significantly depressing pH. Shower attachments containing Vitamin C can be purchased on the Internet, as well as effervescent Vitamin C bath tablets. [12]

 

[Neo 420]

I remember some where reading that putting compost in the water can remove the chlorine. I'll try to find a link for more info.

 

[Granger2]

Coot,
Hades asked about RO. I wasn't saying how chloramine can be removed or neutralized. Don't have the problem, so haven't found out till the few previous posts. -granger

 

[supermanlives]

any organic material will work.

 

[Neo 420]

any organic material will work.

Any organic material left to sit in the water will neutralize the chloramine or chloine. Nice info to know. I myself use RO water.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

The reason that organic material converts (or whatever is the accurate term) Chloramine to Chlorine is the very reason that it may be added. It is not universally applied.

When the water leaves a municipal water facility, the water has to be at whatever levels that are established by federal, state and sometimes even local regulations.

Chloramine is added so that between the treatment plant to your faucet some kind of weird science is used to justify this so that while your water may taste like crap at least it won't have any 'bugs' or 'nasties'

That's the allegation anyway.

Check with MM on the amount you would use in a 5-gallon bucket of water. It's something like 1/4 cup and aerated for 30 minutes - something like that so it's best to check with him.

CC

 

[axxess]

any one used blackjack water conditioner ?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

You don't want to use anything from Black Jack Soil Co. - it's a house label for American Ag on SE Stark near 82nd Avenue in SE Portland formerly known as Halide of Oregon

They're one of the original grow stores in the USA dating back almost 30 years. Complete and total rip-offs. Check out their 'potting soil' for a better explanation.

CC

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Does anyone here have any pics or description of damage caused by chloramines? Plants other than canna would be fine as well??

I have over 100 container plants 50 diff species in containers in my backyard.... in the same soil as my indoor garden, same water source except the water isnt bubbled and comes straight from the hose. They look absolutely perfect.... hibiscus, tomatoes, tropical, roses, on and on, perfect condition, extremely healthy.

My water district told me they use chloramine, so what damage should I be looking for?

Thanks
George

 

[Gascanastan]

Does anyone here have any pics or description of damage caused by chloramines? Plants other than canna would be fine as well??

I have over 100 container plants 50 diff species in containers in my backyard.... in the same soil as my indoor garden, same water source except the water isnt bubbled and comes straight from the hose. They look absolutely perfect.... hibiscus, tomatoes, tropical, roses, on and on, perfect condition, extremely healthy.

My water district told me they use chloramine, so what damage should I be looking for?

Thanks
George

....good one GS~

 

[ClackamasCootz]

LMAO

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Just a googlin

Landscaping Problems Associated with Chloramines

Chloramines are highly toxic to fish, amphibians and other aquatic life forms (Note - Canada's EPA has ruled chloramines as toxic). If one overwaters their landscape the water will enter our streams and may cause fish kills. If one has a pond in their landscape it may kill your fish as water from irrigation collects in the pond. Not to mention the runoff from broken water mains that enter our storm sewers and into our rivers and streams. This kills the minnows and crayfish that eat the mosquito eggs and larva aggravating the mosquito problem.

Note: Chloramines can also be formed in the soil when ammonia (from artificial fertilizers, animal waste, pesticides, etc.) is combined with chlorine in the water.

Chloramines make the water acidic which over time can change soil pH. This may result in nutrient tie-up and create yellowing (chlorosis) problems in many plants. Chloramines prevent the absorption of other nutrients which also may lead to yellowing.

The action of chlorine and chloramines kill bacteria both good and bad. Many good bacteria that live in the soil control fungal diseases. When we lose these good bacteria there is no natural control and turf grass diseases like "Brown Patch, Take All and St. Augustine Decline" become rampant. In other words the more one waters, the greater the chance that one will experience disease problems in their grass and other plants.

Chlorine and chloramines kill the nitrifying bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air into the soil. Hence additional nitrogen must be supplied to the plants to replace the loss of free nitrogen from nature.
Container plants (hanging baskets, pots, etc.) are more susceptible to damage from chloramines as they tend to require more watering.

Studies have shown that chloramines hurt the germination of seeds from many species of plants.

Chloramine is neutralized in the soil by reactions with organic matter, destroying it in the process. Organic matter in the form of humus can hold 15 times its weight in water, hence the soil loses some of its ability to hold and store water.

Chloramine hurts the production of compost tea as it kills off some of the microbial species that one is trying to grow to high densities. Note: One teaspoon of humic acid (liquid form of humate) can neutralize the chloramines in 100 gallons of water depending on the exact concentration of chloramines.

Using high humus products like compost, native mulches (that have been composted) and humate in ones landscape is the easiest way to minimize the damage from chloramines and chlorine. This ensures that even if some of the organic matter is destroyed and some of the beneficial microbes are killed, the soil life can quickly regenerate and prevent problems.

http://www.natureswayresources.com/resource/infosheets/chloramine.html

Abstract

The effects of the concentration of and exposuretime to chloramine, the product of the reaction between hypochlorous acid and N+H4, on root browning and growth of lettuce (Lactuca sativa L.) culturedhydroponically were investigated. Addition of hypochlorous acid in the form of sodium hypochlorite at 0.3 mg Cl/l to the nutrientsolution containing 0.67 mM N+H4 significantly inhibited plantgrowth 10 days after the start of treatment. Exposure to chloramine for even 1 h by the addition of hypochlorous acid at 0.5 mg Cl/l to the nutrientsolution containing 0.67 mM N+H4 also significantly inhibited plantgrowth. Furthermore, in the nutrientsolution containing N+H4 at more than x1/256 unit of Enshi standard, 5.2 × 10−3 mM, plantgrowth was significantly inhibited following the addition of 0.5 mg Cl/l hypochlorous acid. It was estimated that the critical chloramine amount at which lettuceplantgrowth was significantly inhibited was 0.18 mg Cl/g root FW.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030442380400113X

EFFECTS OF NUTRIENT AND ENVIRONMENTAL PRE-TREATMENTS ON THE OCCURRENCE OF ROOT INJURY OF LETTUCE CAUSED BY CHLORAMINE
Abstract:
Lettuce seedlings pretreated with solutions containing either of N, P, K, Ca or Mg at the concentration of 150% strength Enshi-shohou for 48 hours, were transplanted to 50% strength Enshi-shohou solution containing chloramine. Root injury occurred by chloramine treatment with all the pretreatments. After 6 h of chloramine treatment, 2,3,5-triphenyltetrazolium chloride (TTC) reduction activity decreased in root tissues. Growth rate after 10 days of culture was similar with all the pretreatment. Lettuce seedlings subjected to high atmospheric temperature, high humidity, high solution temperature or high light intensity during culture with the half strength Enshi-shohou nutrient solutions for 8 days, were transplanted to 50% strength Enshi-shohou solution containing chloramine. Again, root injury occurred by chloramine treatment with all the pretreatments. TTC reduction of root tissues after 6 hours of chloramine treatment decreased similarly with all the pretreatments. Rate of fresh weight increase after 10 days of culture was similar with all the pretreatments. It was concluded that root injury was induced and growth was inhibited by chloramine, regardless of nutrient solution constituents or environmental conditions prior to chloramine treatment, although the effect of chloramine was modified by these pretreatments.

http://www.actahort.org/books/481/481_65.htm

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Chloramine Removal:

Carbon filters remove this chemical but the filter is used up much faster than for other chemicals and takes much longer to do the job. A special form of carbon, "Catalytic carbon", as it works better than standard carbon (sometimes called Centaur). In other words it will require a larger and more expensive filter to remove it.

Carbon filters remove the chlorine portion of the molecule leaving the ammonia behind hence it requires another stage of filtration such as reverse osmosis to remove it.

Vitamin C filters - For showers this works better than other types at removing chloramines. It takes about 1,000 mg of vitamin C (ascorbic acid form) to remove chloramines from 40 gallons of water.

Reverse osmosis units do remove chloramines as they generally have a couple carbon filters but they often produce large amounts of salt (sodium) in the water which can also cause problems if used to water plants.

Double counter top units work better than single stage filters for drinking water (Cool water must be used for these filters to work effectively).

Note: When chloramines is coupled with chlorine and fluoride the combined negative effects on plant and soil health is much greater.

http://www.natureswayresources.com/resource/infosheets/chloramine.html