Fermented plant extracts

[cyat]

I hope you'll keep us updated. I made a kind of Steve Solomon COF bokashi thing last year, but it reeked so bad I was afraid to use it!

just smelled it again extremely sweet! no kelp smell... lotsa white floaties...

i'm gonna try a different extract like stonemeal and add greensand to see if this ingredient keeps it fresh smelling?

 

[Oregonism]

Just wanted to see what people thought of this fermenter concept. I was tired of burping the lids all the time and not quite understanding when fermation was happening or stopping/starting. [Woodland Forget-Me-Not is in the container, basically a wild comfrey that I pick]

The water bubbles in the wine trap, the slower it gets, the lower fermentation levels are occuring. I also bought a nice hydrometer to fool around just with FPE, measure their weights before and after and such. I fill this container up about 3/4, so I leave 1/4 airspace at least, for gas expansion. Seems like a healthy air gap/gas chamber results in a fairly quick fermentation and it stays strong through its cycle.

Any thoughts???

 

[heady blunts]

cool!

 

[Oregonism]

cool!

Thanks....if you have ever made wine or beer, these are familiar, but you could make one with a piece of tubing and a mayonnaise jar. Never have to burp something while it is fermenting and keep oxygen out.

I have nettle in a bucket going with another trap, but it looks like the seal to the bucket lid failed, poopstains.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Just wanted to see what people thought of this fermenter concept. I was tired of burping the lids all the time and not quite understanding when fermation was happening or stopping/starting. [Woodland Forget-Me-Not is in the container, basically a wild comfrey that I pick]

The water bubbles in the wine trap, the slower it gets, the lower fermentation levels are occuring. I also bought a nice hydrometer to fool around just with FPE, measure their weights before and after and such. I fill this container up about 3/4, so I leave 1/4 airspace at least, for gas expansion. Seems like a healthy air gap/gas chamber results in a fairly quick fermentation and it stays strong through its cycle.

Any thoughts???


View Image

Brilliant idea, and there are a few designs that could work as a trap. One question, because I've been doing my FPEs in uncovered containers... should I begin using covered containers and using a trap like that? Is there any real difference in the fermentation process? Seems there might be if other critters have access to the brew at all times with how I've been doing it.

 

[mapinguari]

Brilliant idea, and there are a few designs that could work as a trap. One question, because I've been doing my FPEs in uncovered containers... should I begin using covered containers and using a trap like that? Is there any real difference in the fermentation process? Seems there might be if other critters have access to the brew at all times with how I've been doing it.

SeaMaiden, you might try putting an inverted plate in your bucket, perhaps with a rock on top to ensure that you keep water over your vegetal matter.

As fermentation happens, I jog the bucket around, releasing bubbles from under the plate.

 

[Oregonism]

Brilliant idea, and there are a few designs that could work as a trap.

Thank you Maiden, maybe some more kinks to work out however.

One question, because I've been doing my FPEs in uncovered containers... should I begin using covered containers and using a trap like that? Is there any real difference in the fermentation process? Seems there might be if other critters have access to the brew at all times with how I've been doing it.

Took a little time and thought about pro's / con's / hypotheses that are floating around in my brain.

When alcohol is being fermented, Brewers watch it carefully, some stop it midway, others when it starts to slow down. It is always under pressure as fermentation takes place. As fermentation is an oxidizer, my hypo is that the less oxygen to completely no oxygen, the better quality of the ferment.

When even submersed in water, but uncovered, I worry about 3 things.
1. Oxygen penetrating the menstrum and
2 ubiquitous microbiology, both good and bad, that might invade, the open bucket. [I use the open bucket method, fervently]
3. Quality and availability of extraction

It is fact that ubiquitous micro organsism can turn from aerobic to anaerobic. If left uncovered these could invade your brew. Yeast is one example, it can use oxygen as respiration, but tends to use fermentation if available. Hence, why I am using the wine trap, to begin with.

Another reason of the chamber is, it is a controlled environment, it isn't sterile, but you are trying to select the right microbiology to thrive in your micro-environment and then let only a certain condition dictate the environment. My thought is that a pressurized chamber regulates homeostasis of fermentation, than the open but submerged bucket. This would help with extraction and here's why.

With water as a solvent, active chemicals from a plant that are liberated:

Anthocyanins - Starches - Tannins - Sapponins - Terpenoids - Polypetides - Lectins

Ethanol:

Tannins - polyphenols - polyacetylenes - flavonol - Terpenoids - Sterols - Alkaloids

Methanol: Anthocyanins - Terpenoids - Saponins - Tannins - Xanthoxylllines - Totarol - Quassinoids - Lactones - Flavones- Phenones-polyphenols


This is from:
Phytochemical screening and Extraction: A Review Tiwari P., Kumar B, Kaur M, Kaur G, Kaur H. Internationale Pharmaceutica Scienca, Jan-Mar 2011, Vol1, Issue 1, pp9.


Methanol extraction seems to easily breakdown more active chemicals and make them immediately available [in-organic] to plants.
In talking to a local wine maker, they suggested that fermentation takes a few weeks and shouldn't be interrupted. This also led me to believe that an open bucket might not be fermenting all the way, even though there was total submersion seemingly anaerobic conditions.

I am not trying to be super critical of the bucket method, I use it and think it has it's place. But I am ready to start making 55 gallons of FPE every run and I am addictingly intrigued by FPE extraction and for me the bucket was too anecdotal at this point.

 

[Oregonism]

SeaMaiden, you might try putting an inverted plate in your bucket, perhaps with a rock on top to ensure that you keep water over your vegetal matter.

As fermentation happens, I jog the bucket around, releasing bubbles from under the plate.

Great idea I had been using a rock to submerge all my veggie matter, then putting on a plate that fit snugly in the top of my bucket. After that, I started using the fermenter and didn't go further with the plate.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Oregonism, your detailed response is much appreciated, and quite helpful. I'm getting what you mean, and it makes a lot of sense.

My husband sold off ALL his homebrewing gear, I don't think we even have a single carboy left. Will have to start from scratch, so to speak, but it's not that big a deal since I know what to look for.

 

[Swayze]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, are there any books/guides to identifying plant species that you guys can recommend? I'd like to know what I'm looking for/foraging. I live in CA if that helps, although I'm sure members from other states/countries could benefit from any regional info you guys have.

Thanks.

 

[Oregonism]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, are there any books/guides to identifying plant species that you guys can recommend? I'd like to know what I'm looking for/foraging. I live in CA if that helps, although I'm sure members from other states/countries could benefit from any regional info you guys have.

Thanks.

I am on the West Coast and I use Pojar's Plants of the Pacific Northwest, it will cover most of Northern California only, but has listings for just about every popular cosmopolitan weed that is on the West Coast
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/plants-of-the-pacific-northwest-coast-jim-pojar/1100004515

California specific: CalPhoto @ Cal State Berkeley, online database
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/flora/

Lastly, I go to used book stores and clean out the plant guides if they have them, sometimes you can pick up whole stacks for $10. It is good to cross reference and to see older names, new categorization, etc. They change plant nonmenclature every year, wouldn't hurt to learn some latin

 

[greenmatter]

i'm brewing my very first comfrey FPE in a closed 5 gallon bucket in the garage. i was out there talking to a friend about what it is and how it works when the phone rang and i stepped out for 2 minutes .......... when i got back the garage door was open and my friend had a very strange look on his face.

some people just have to find out for themselves what "smells like death" really means. i have a feeling he will trust me next time around

 

[kuracjusz44]

i have just bought EM Garden.anyone use em for cannabis?does it works good for them?

 

[Swayze]

Oregonism,

thanks for the links and ideas. I appreciate it.

 

[ClosetAdvocate]

Took me a lot of google searching to figure out what it is, but I have a lot (pounds and pounds) of quickweed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galinsoga_parviflora) to pull in the garden.

Has anyone made FPE out of quickweed? It's like a wild daisy. It grows like crazy in my garden.

I have some spare cat litter jugs that I'm going to user to make some FPE out of it.

I had some FPE I made out of some other weeds from last year (mostly dandelion and a few other broadleaf weeds). Holy crap this stuff stinks. I haven't tried it out on anything yet, maybe I'll give a bit to my tomatoes and see if they survive.

Does anyone add molasses to their plant material to speed the growth of beneficials to break down the plant material?

I've read that while stinging nettles doesn't need added sugars to ferment, but most others do. Is this true?

 

[SeaMaiden]

I haven't ever added sugars to my FPE, maybe I've been doing it wrong. I'm going to make an FPE out of all this woolly mullein we have around here. We also have a little weed that makes small clumps with yellow flowers held about a foot above the greens, easily pulled, makes a fluffy seed head, that I've been considering using. Thing is, now it's pretty much the only green stuff on the ground except for star thistle.

I've also made FPE from excess tomato leaves. Attracts a LOT of flies.

 

[mapinguari]

Took me a lot of google searching to figure out what it is, but I have a lot (pounds and pounds) of quickweed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galinsoga_parviflora) to pull in the garden.

Has anyone made FPE out of quickweed? It's like a wild daisy. It grows like crazy in my garden.

I have some spare cat litter jugs that I'm going to user to make some FPE out of it.

I had some FPE I made out of some other weeds from last year (mostly dandelion and a few other broadleaf weeds). Holy crap this stuff stinks. I haven't tried it out on anything yet, maybe I'll give a bit to my tomatoes and see if they survive.

Does anyone add molasses to their plant material to speed the growth of beneficials to break down the plant material?

I've read that while stinging nettles doesn't need added sugars to ferment, but most others do. Is this true?

If you make lactic acid bacteria according to Gil Carandang's instructions, you end up making a solution that's part whey and part molasses; this is then mixed with water and added to plant material for FPEs.

I have heard, and my experience bears out, that it is not necessary to add LAB (or EM or anything like that) to nettle. I usually do add it to other things, like a batch of kale FPE I have going now. I don't have experience adding just molasses.

Regarding nettle (or other plants) and the use of LAB, it seems that when you use LAB you get more complete breakdown into basic elements. If you don't use it, you can extract more of the secondary metabolites, including compounds that regulate growth and so on, rather than just N P K and traces.

 

[Oregonism]

Oregonism,

thanks for the links and ideas. I appreciate it.

Swayze, your welcome. HTH a little, Pojar however covers just about everything in Northern Cali except for desert and obscure High desert plants. I have used it in Susanville and Visalia, quite a bit apart. Calphotos has some of the most comprehensive info, online at least.

Does anyone add molasses to their plant material to speed the growth of beneficials to break down the plant material?

I do....I add molasses to my nettle brews. But my way might be different, I usually do two soaks with my parent material, my theory is to add molasses to speed up microbial activity in a smaller amount of time.

I also just made a feverfew brew, started on 6/17. Added about 1-2 tbsp of molasses and it is going as per the glove finger lid indicator.

I've read that while stinging nettles doesn't need added sugars to ferment, but most others do. Is this true?

Dr Duke has carbohydrates listed as 396,000ppm in Stinging Nettle, which would be about %40 of volume of the plant.
What's also interesting is that feverfew is listed as being higher, with 514,000ppm, over 50% volume.

I wish I took pictures, it had negative air pressure for 1-2 days, then started putting out methane as you can see now. Started on the 17th. More sugars help fermentation?

Nettle[ANON. 1948-1976. The Wealth of India raw materials. Publications and Information Directorate, CSIR, New Delhi. 11 volumes.]
Feverfew[Pedersen, M. 1987. Nutritional Herbology. Pederson Publishing. Bountiful, Utah. 377 pp.]

 

[SeaMaiden]

Right after I read your post, Oregonism, I read a regular feature in Acres, USA, by the Eco-Gardener called Alchemy in the Garden. One of the first techniques is an FPE, which he's calling FPJ. He's not using water in it at all, just chopped plant material, molasses and it's all topped off with sugar. I didn't have molasses on hand, didn't want to run upstairs to raid the brown sugar and wanted to try something more akin to your technique, so I used malted barley extract and enough water to cover the plant material, and covered that. Let's see what hellish brew I've concocted in a week!

Plants used were woolly mullein and an oxalis spp.

 

[heady blunts]

you don't need to add anything except water to most plants for an FPE. bacteria and native yeasts are abundant on every surface of the plant and floating in the air. the plant material is plenty of food for them.

lacto b and EM are likewise unnecessary, though it has been reported that adding it to the mix when you start a nettle, comfrey, dandelion, or other putrid smelling fpe will cut back on its offensive odor.