Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[sso]

Don't see a point in defoliation?

4' x 4' tent. Under LED.

Pic #1, 2nd major stripping in veg, approx 8-10 days before 12/12 flip.
Pic #2, day 20 in 12/12 before stripping again.
Pic #3, day 22, after first few hours of defoliation on the same four plants. Takes a long time to do all this. More to be done.
Pic #4, another shot of same as above.

** Things I've learned thus far:

1. Four plants is at least 1 too many in 4' x 4' tent! They get so bushy they can still overcrowd and shade each other.
2. I still need more light.
3. Prepping in veg by doing this twice has major rewards in terms of structure and massive node development, even from seedlings as these above are.
4. BENDING is a very important part of this technique.

thats a good point, in a crowded canopy like that you would be getting just the tops, while you could be getting a foot of bud per plant.

but there are plants that would not need defol.

 

[Infinitesimal]

Don't see a point in defoliation?

4' x 4' tent. Under LED.

Pic #1, 2nd major stripping in veg, approx 8-10 days before 12/12 flip.
Pic #2, day 20 in 12/12 before stripping again.
Pic #3, day 22, after first few hours of defoliation on the same four plants. Takes a long time to do all this. More to be done.
Pic #4, another shot of same as above.

** Things I've learned thus far:

1. Four plants is at least 1 too many in 4' x 4' tent! They get so bushy they can still overcrowd and shade each other.
2. I still need more light.
3. Prepping in veg by doing this twice has major rewards in terms of structure and massive node development, even from seedlings as these above are.
4. BENDING is a very important part of this technique.

that looks really good for an led grow. i don't keep up on the led forum but a couple years ago i was lurking through there and i never seen anyone yield anything very respectable. good job thats a healthy plant it even looks pretty Sativa dominant.

oh yeah, for sure more light will help a bunch but then you need more cooling too

peace,
Infi

 

[St3ve]

Take my advice.. or dont.. Either way, it doesnt matter to me. .

Do you realize that you've come into this thread.. preaching about something you've never even tried? You are calling something crazy that you've not even done your self.. by very definition of the word you are being ignorant.

I'm not saying you don't have some sound advice.. and I bet you're probably experienced with most of the things you've recommended right? Great.. now how about starting your own thread about things that you've ACTUALLY DONE.. instead of trying to sound intelligent and commenting on things that you have NEVER ACTUALLY DONE. If you want to call it crazy after you have tried it a few times yourself then more power to you. Just don't call something crazy because you THINK it probably doesn't work.

K33f (the op) said it early on. "There is a difference in saying 'I think' versus 'I experienced'".

 

[TommyTwoColas]

Do you realize that you've come into this thread.. preaching about something you've never even tried? You are calling something crazy that you've not even done your self.. by very definition of the word you are being ignorant.

I'm not saying you don't have some sound advice.. and I bet you're probably experienced with most of the things you've recommended right? Great.. now how about starting your own thread about things that you've ACTUALLY DONE.. instead of trying to sound intelligent and commenting on things that you have NEVER ACTUALLY DONE. If you want to call it crazy after you have tried it a few times yourself then more power to you. Just don't call something crazy because you THINK it probably doesn't work.

K33f (the op) said it early on. "There is a difference in saying 'I think' versus 'I experienced'".[/quote]

To quote Dr. Sheldon Cooper, "bazinga".

It's amazing the lengths that people will go to in order to argue against something they've never tried before on a weed growing forum.............."plants can't grow in just water, they'll drown"............"plants can't grow next to a vertical bulb, why do you think hydro stores sell us these reflectors"........"it's against nature to do _____".

Newsflash, guys - everything I do in my grow room is meant to be better than nature (that's why indoor sells for more than outdoor, FYI).

We're boutique gardeners trying to get maximum results from finite resources.

If I was growing 100 trees outside I wouldn't bother defoliating because the sun is (for our purposes) an infinite resource of light.............my 600s are not.

Below is a picture of my canopy from a few days ago - I spent an hour taking off more than 15 gallons worth of leaves yesterday (there's 90 plants in there), and will do the same on Sunday night (have a wedding today). I'll post the "after" pic sometime early next week and you guys can all laugh at me for killing my plants

Disciple, really wish you were still running your Cage, but great post nonetheless

 

[Bassy59]

thats a good point, in a crowded canopy like that you would be getting just the tops, while you could be getting a foot of bud per plant.

but there are plants that would not need defol.

Not sure, but you may have missed many points from my post.

1. it's only 4 plants in flower in a 4'x4' tent that is insanely full.
2. How did they get so damn bushy with so many tops I wonder? DEFOLIATION IN VEG TO PREPARE. BENDING
3. I ideally want 28" of bud. That's penetration and only achievable (to my knowledge anyways) with defoliation to get penetration.
4. Defoliation does not hurt the plants one bit. It will slow them in veg a little, but only slows them. It will shut down stretch, hence we wait till optimal time (height restrictions) in stretch or 21 days or so.
5. Defoliation DOES increase #'s of nodes and closeness of nodes.
6. Nodes become BRANCHES, BIG TALL BRANCHES, all the way up to the top if we prepare in veg and bend.


I'm still new at it with this being only my 2nd grow using this technique. These are just my observations. I've started my 3rd grow, also from seedling but it's too early yet. I will use this technique on my Kosher Kush girls.

Quality seems unaffected. Again only one grow completed, one ongoing now. But the potency of last grow was better than previous and the yield was a lot more. Current grow, 21 days into flower on 8-10 week strain is already starting to get sticky. Five-Eight weeks to go? I can hardly wait.

 

[blackosprey]

This thread has become something close to a monkey fucking a football.....
There are so many techniques out there...organic, hydro, aero, micro, supercropping, fimming, sog, scrog, lunar calendar, defoliation......the list goes on. All should be considered a way of improving your own personal grow experience, whether it works for you or not (if you don't try it, how do you know it does not work?
One of the fundamental Hindu teachings is that there are many ways to grow spiritually, and one teaching or another may not work for you, but it works for others. You don't deny those teachings as being false just because they aren't for you, because one day, you may find that the teaching that was not applicable to you yesterday is applicable to you today.
This philosophy should be carried over into growing, because at the heart, unless you are only in it for the money, is a very spiritual experience that can teach you many things if you are atune to learning them.

 

[sso]

Not sure, but you may have missed many points from my post.

1. it's only 4 plants in flower in a 4'x4' tent that is insanely full.
2. How did they get so damn bushy with so many tops I wonder? DEFOLIATION IN VEG TO PREPARE. BENDING
3. I ideally want 28" of bud. That's penetration and only achievable (to my knowledge anyways) with defoliation to get penetration.
4. Defoliation does not hurt the plants one bit. It will slow them in veg a little, but only slows them. It will shut down stretch, hence we wait till optimal time (height restrictions) in stretch or 21 days or so.
5. Defoliation DOES increase #'s of nodes and closeness of nodes.
6. Nodes become BRANCHES, BIG TALL BRANCHES, all the way up to the top if we prepare in veg and bend.


I'm still new at it with this being only my 2nd grow using this technique. These are just my observations. I've started my 3rd grow, also from seedling but it's too early yet. I will use this technique on my Kosher Kush girls.

Quality seems unaffected. Again only one grow completed, one ongoing now. But the potency of last grow was better than previous and the yield was a lot more. Current grow, 21 days into flower on 8-10 week strain is already starting to get sticky. Five-Eight weeks to go? I can hardly wait.

oh i was just being unclear. im trying this stuff out too, good luck on your grow!

 

[Elite Nugz]

My last response on this thread...

many of us have reasonable consistency. Clones that root within a given window even out by the end of veg for me. Weak clones are culled.

There are STRONG clones, then there are average clones and then there are clones that root slowly, or not at all. From the clones I've seen people start with, and post in threads around here... mostly look average to poor.

K33ftr33z (the creator of this thread) is about as experienced as they come.

Many experienced growers remove every single fan leaf on plants during veg. When the plant re-leaves, more bud sites are the result and in a more compact plant.

Experience isnt determined by how many website post you have.

Im on about 5 weed growing websites.. two of which are private/invite only sites, and on top of that I manage a hydro store here in SoCal. If you in SoCal and shop at hydro stores, you've probably spoke with me before. Shit... you've probably smoked weed grown by me as well, unless you only smoke your own and never hit up med collectives. I've been around for a while, so I know quite a few experienced growers, online and personally. I myself am an experienced grower, and if your on the right website, you will have seen my larger setup and know what Im about..... But besides that... I dont know one experienced grower who decapitates their plants, as I've seen here. Sorry... but I dont know one who does this.

This is an advanced thread and many of us have already dialed our environments.

btw, my yield goes up with RH in the 70's....

So here's where you lost me.... Yield drops, as your humidity rises. Now I can sit here and break this down for you completely and get into how transpiration works in plants, but It'll probably go in one ear and out the other, like my other post seem to have done.

a chiller at the end of flower will definitely encourage PM and bud rot (just like cold snaps affect outdoor crops).

LoL.... And you totally lost me on this one too.... HOW... Tell me how a chiller can bring about PM and Bud Rot..?? Powdery Mildew is formed through microscopic spores floating in the air... mixed with high humidity, and a cozy leaf to make its home on. Has absolutely nothing to do with running a chiller. And bud rot...?? From a chiller..?? Do you know what a chiller is??

keeping the lights appropriately close increases resin production.

Whats your idea, of "appropriately close" ?? Moving your plants further from the light source, increases trichome production... not "appropriately close". Whatever that means. If light is too intense, it has a negative impact on plants... Not positive. Finding the correct distance is the key.

our "shit" is already dialed in.... that's why we can defoliate!!

Im sorry... but it really doesnt sound like it. Maybe your "dialed in" is different from my dialed in.

"perfect" control over pH in the root zone of our plants? we target a range and that is sufficient. Even Dr. Howard Resh (Hydroponic Food Production) admits we don't fully understand the interplay of chemicals passing back and forth across the root membrane.

So do you fully have to understand how a car engine works, in order to drive a car properly?? Nah.. dont think so...

PH is another topic that I wont even begin to break down here.




Someone also commented here, like I was crazy that I dont have my reflectors vented... Another sign that Im not in a good place to be giving people info. If the person making that comment had a clue about growing.... he wouldnt have made that completely ridiculous comment.

So Im done with this thread. But for whoever is reading this post.. I just hope you understand to never get cocky and act like a know it all... because in growing, the amount of information is limitless. You never stop learning and there will always be someone who knows more then you. Shutting out good information, due to arrogance, will only make you experience things the hard way. Looking for the easy way out.. will leave you wasting a BUNCH of time and if you get bigger then a few lights... then a lot of wasted money as well.

Take my advice if you want... if not.. leave it. Got something to say to me..?? Say it in a PM.

 

[Bassy59]

So Im done with this thread. But for whoever is reading this post.. I just hope you understand to never get cocky and act like a know it all... because in growing, the amount of information is limitless. You never stop learning and there will always be someone who knows more then you. Shutting out good information, due to arrogance, will only make you experience things the hard way. Looking for the easy way out.. will leave you wasting a BUNCH of time and if you get bigger then a few lights... then a lot of wasted money as well.

Take my advice if you want... if not.. leave it. Got something to say to me..?? Say it in a PM.

Yet, it is through this same cocky, arrogance that you too refuse to accept this technique as a possible viable approach to improving yield. You too, have shut out good information. You too, have become the know it all.

While my below quote does not apply to our plants, it's just a reminder of some effects to have been found from defoliation. This time, on grape vines.

Quote: Experimental data indicate that defoliation increases the photosynthetic load on the remaining leaves and stimulates the assimilate export. ...

Quote: Defoliation is an effective tool for altering the source-sink balance between producing and consuming organs; it allows researchers to affect the assimilate partitioning within the plant. ...A partial defoliation is used to provide optimal shape to the grapevine foliage and to INCREASE PLANT PRODUCTIVITY.

Again, it's grape and not cannabis. But if we prefer to remain teachable we will also find other plants that have shown benefit from defoliation at particular times to improve yield.

It is only with experimentation that we as growers can find out if this process has benefits to our plants. As with any experimentation, we may also need to do it more than once (the entire growth experiment), defoliating at different times, different amounts, etc, to find out what the effects are. Hats off to those that have already spent much of that time and are bringing this idea to us to work with and learn for ourselves.

The most convincing evidence of all in this thread, which is CONSTANTLY & COMPLETELY ignored, is Delta9's results. Reaching as much as 19z (iirc) using this technique after reading THIS THREAD! He has used this method and stated increases of 40-80% (again iirc) in yield with no ill affect to quality.

 

[disciple]

 

[St3ve]

My last response on this thread....

Why? You are part of a good discussion now. You say you are open minded to learn something new every day, but when ppl try to describe something contrary to what you believe you run off?

 

[Elite Nugz]

Why? You are part of a good discussion now. You say you are open minded to learn something new every day, but when ppl try to describe something contrary to what you believe you run off?

Im still here buddy. Got something to say.. say it in a PM.

People here are obviously not reading my full posts. Too much to read, maybe..?? Thats probably why, people keep assuming that I havent tried this plant mutilation technique. Or maybe its selective reading. Who knows.



One person already PM'd me, and I responded. He felt the need to copy and paste it, a page back as well..... not sure if thats to feed the drama seekers out there, but Im not here for drama or to put on a show for people. So if you think you can hang in there and put up a good debate on the subject, and not say completely ridiculous things and make crazy assumptions... then PM me, so we can chat, and maybe share some beneficial techniques. But Im definately still here... Probably not in the best section, but Im here.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I don't know exactly why but, this is my only comment you replied to and look how you did. talk about selective reading...

[/SIZE]

YOU have some nice equipment though... how about you vent those hoods you got there

Someone also commented here, like I was crazy that I dont have my reflectors vented... Another sign that Im not in a good place to be giving people info. If the person making that comment had a clue about growing.... he wouldnt have made that completely ridiculous comment.

and do you care to elaborate on your response... does passing air over your bulb to circulate the heat and remove hot spots from your canopy inhibit growth or illumination? where is my comment ridiculous? please clue me in... lol.

And yes it is a sign, TO US, that your not in a good place to be giving people info. lol

So Im done with this thread. But for whoever is reading this post.. I just hope you understand to never get cocky and act like a know it all... because in growing, the amount of information is limitless. You never stop learning and there will always be someone who knows more then you.

do you ever take your own advise much...

People here are obviously not reading my full posts. Too much to read, maybe..?? Thats probably why, people keep assuming that I havent tried this plant mutilation technique. Or maybe its selective reading. Who knows.

wow man! you are one Audacious SOB.

au·da·cious (ô-dshs)
adj.
1. Fearlessly, often recklessly daring; bold. See Synonyms at adventurous, brave.
2. Unrestrained by convention or propriety; insolent.
3. Spirited and original: an audacious interpretation of two Jacobean dramas.
4. impudent or presumptuous

 

[disciple]

 

[St3ve]

Im still here buddy. Got something to say.. say it in a PM.

People here are obviously not reading my full posts. Too much to read, maybe..?? Thats probably why, people keep assuming that I havent tried this plant mutilation technique. Or maybe its selective reading. Who knows.

I guess I didn't see that you did try it, so I am one of those ppl who overlook it. Dunno why..

Nice horizontal lighting setups, high plant counts. Good uniformity.

No wonder he's saying it doesn't work.. I wouldn't want to defoliate either.

This techniquie is mainly for growing larger plants in a smaller area to make sure to get everything you can from the light. The smallest tightest nodes and the maximum light penetration. If you're SoG or high plant count then you are getting a thicker more dense canopy than you ever could with fewer plants grown au naturale in the same setting.

But.. he still shouldn't say that this technique "doesn't work" because it's not applicable for HIS grow style. I used to swear by this technique, as it DID in FACT increase my yield.. however I don't anymore. Now I grow vertical now so I WANT stretchy plants to make it easier to fill my VSCRoG.

 

[Bassy59]

Looks great disciple.

I'm actually not sure about something.

Last grow, my first at using this technique, I got nice yield, more than my previous. But I know I also made some mistakes.

Rather than digress into those errors, lets address my current questions.

1. I am a little confused on the removal of fans that are close to bud sites but have stems and are protruding. Post #427 states "never remove the leaf from a bud site or the growing nodes.. this is what supports the bud growth.

So I have some fans that are very big, some medium, they are older fans that where they meet the stem a bud site has developed. The bud site has a few tiny leaves (22 days into flower-29 days into 12/12, 8-10 week strain). The bud site may even have a little bit of stem developed. Some not.

I know last grow I removed fans that were part of bud sites and this hurt me. I didnt catch the above till too late. But what about these ones that are super close? The ones that the bud site developed from at the "y" where it met the branch?

I feel like I haven't taken enough away. But I don't want to take the wrong ones away.

Here's some pics that include arrows and identify my question. Sorry about quality of pics but is was during lights out.

Pic #1 I presume I should be removing both A & B
Pic #2 Is the bud developed enough to remove C?
Pic #3 Notice all 3 fans are attached even barely, to the top bud site, but are not true sugar leaf either. Ok to remove D, E, F?

 

[St3ve]

Looks great disciple.

I'm actually not sure about something.

Last grow, my first at using this technique, I got nice yield, more than my previous. But I know I also made some mistakes.

Rather than digress into those errors, lets address my current questions.

1. I am a little confused on the removal of fans that are close to bud sites but have stems and are protruding. Post #427 states "never remove the leaf from a bud site or the growing nodes.. this is what supports the bud growth.

So I have some fans that are very big, some medium, they are older fans that where they meet the stem a bud site has developed. The bud site has a few tiny leaves (22 days into flower-29 days into 12/12, 8-10 week strain). The bud site may even have a little bit of stem developed. Some not.

I know last grow I removed fans that were part of bud sites and this hurt me. I didnt catch the above till too late. But what about these ones that are super close? The ones that the bud site developed from at the "y" where it met the branch?

I feel like I haven't taken enough away. But I don't want to take the wrong ones away.

Here's some pics that include arrows and identify my question. Sorry about quality of pics but is was during lights out.

Pic #1 I presume I should be removing both A & B
Pic #2 Is the bud developed enough to remove C?
Pic #3 Notice all 3 fans are attached even barely, to the top bud site, but are not true sugar leaf either. Ok to remove D, E, F?

I don't fully understand. When you're in flower, you grow bud at every single node, as well as fans. So where are you plucking leaves from, if NOT from a node?

Anyway.. I always take leaves if they have some stem. If they are butted up to a bud, and don't really have a stem, then I leave it alone. If its NOT shading anything, then leave it alone.

 

[Elite Nugz]

and do you care to elaborate on your response... does passing air over your bulb to circulate the heat and remove hot spots from your canopy inhibit growth or illumination? where is my comment ridiculous? please clue me in... lol.

I usually dont respond to shit talkers.. but I'll bite on this one, since you wont be quite.

YES.. It does inhibit growth and illumination. Have you ever ran an open reflector?? I'll assume not, because of your comments. Do some research on what type of UV spectrum gets filtered out by glass, how many lumens are lost through glass, and how much intensity is lost with even the thinnest layer of dust on that glass. My AC can handle my 3 lights being left open, so I took the glass off to get the most of my lights. My reflectors have a wide even spread, and with good air circulation in my room, I have little to no hot spots. I know... I have a surface temperature meter and take readings every time I adjust my temperatures.

I was the one who pm'd Elite Nugz. No big deal.

I also went and checked out his (3) threads and his plants look awesome.

Nice horizontal lighting setups, high plant counts. Good uniformity.

I actually believe he could increase his yield with some defoliation if he wanted to burn some veg time but he's got a high enough plant count that he's probably satisfied with whatever he's been getting. Plus he says he's doing some selection and will move on his choices to his other gardens.

The OP of this thread also used to run high plant count SOGs but found a way to yield the same (with similar veg times) with way fewer plants.

Plant counts may not be a concern for Elite Nugz but they certainly are for many others here. I run vertical bare bulbs and trees for that very reason.

Thanks for the kind words. I do appreciate the maturity.

Plant counts... Im in Califronia. I NEVER run more then 5 plants per 1,000 watt light. Im not growing trees, but I am growing bushes. To me, my plant count is very low, when compared a lot of people who try and run 16 plants per light, give or take a few. I top plants when there clone size, then super crop in veg, and use screens for the remainder of veg. Some people call this technique Screen of Green (ScrOG), instead of Sea of Green (SOG). Other people call it LSTing (my screen training). I top until I get 4-8 tops, then I super crop those outward to control height in veg, until they can be placed under my screen. The screen not only works to train the plants and to get a nice even canopy, where all buds are at optimal light levels, but it also acts as support. My canopy is uneven right now, because I started each plant from seed. The first run I did on my room, I used clones, to get a feel for the room, by using a strain that I've had around for a few years now, and know it well. See below...

I guess I didn't see that you did try it, so I am one of those ppl who overlook it. Dunno why..


But.. he still shouldn't say that this technique "doesn't work" because it's not applicable for HIS grow style. I used to swear by this technique, as it DID in FACT increase my yield.. however I don't anymore. Now I grow vertical now so I WANT stretchy plants to make it easier to fill my VSCRoG.

I tried it and many other techniques. I dont even remember the crazy names of some of the shit I tried.

Here's one that I found a pic of... Did this outdoors a while back. Cant remember what people called this one... but there is information on the web that this works with certain types of plants. More then one website will back it up, but I saw no difference and neither did the scale.



The logic behind this one, was to allow nutrients up into the plant, but to not let the unused nutrients back down. So you force the plant to process more food then what it would normally, resulting in bigger yields. It didnt work... at least for me, it didnt.



So yeah... Ive tried tons of stuff. Im a HUGE skeptic of most techniques, but will always give them a shot before ruling them out. I probably shouldnt have came into this thread so strong, but after seeing a few pics of tiny plants... maybe 6-8 inches tall.. with close to nothing on them... I felt I needed to come in here strong and try to help out some. I mean... why mutilate your plants, causing slow to stunned growth, when you could just use LST techniques? You cause close to no stress... your plants runs a full speed the entire time, and you reap the benefits of a strong, fast growing, healthy, great yielding plant. I want to say that this defo' technique kills potency as well, but I cant prove it... but based on what I know the leaves do for the buds... I would definitely say that if you take too many leaves off.. you'd be decreasing the potency of the plant.

So.. to each, their own... I guess.

 

[Elite Nugz]

You pluck fans off of my Super Lemon Haze, LA Woman or my Jack The Ripper... and you'll be pulling these off....





How could you remove and destroy something so purdy??

 

[magiccannabus]

If used early enough, this technique could potentially mean a lot more beautiful leaf buds like that. Then again, one must wonder what the benefits and trade-offs are. Yes you get those really neat buds on the leaves, but each is tiny, and it uses up nutrients and hormones that could potentially be dumping more energy into the main growths. It's like the argument that popcorn buds should be removed because they draw growth resources away from main colas. I'm really not sure what the answer is though. Either way, those are beautiful leaf buds. That's a nice rare sight indeed.