Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[rives]

I don't know what you mean by your "upper level", but you have 15 amps at 240 volts available. For a continuous load, which is defined as 3+ hours of "on" time, you are limited to 80% of the breaker rating, which in this case would be 12 amps or 2880 watts. Non-continuous loads can use up to the full rating of the breaker. A "double-pole" breaker refers to a breaker that protects two hot legs simultaneously - a 120 volt circuit only has one hot wire, so it uses a "single-pole" breaker.

 

[GolfProGrower]

I don't know what you mean by your "upper level", but you have 15 amps at 240 volts available. For a continuous load, which is defined as 3+ hours of "on" time, you are limited to 80% of the breaker rating, which in this case would be 12 amps or 2880 watts. Non-continuous loads can use up to the full rating of the breaker. A "double-pole" breaker refers to a breaker that protects two hot legs simultaneously - a 120 volt circuit only has one hot wire, so it uses a "single-pole" breaker.

Thanks Rives. By upper level, I meant upper level of my house...its 2 small bedrooms and a small bathroom.

If I understand correctly, I have 2 live wires protected simultaneously by the double breaker. Does it matter how much load each one carries? For example...I can safely run 2880 watts, can that all be on just one of the 2 wires protected by the double breaker, provided the total doesn't go over the 2880?

 

[rives]

Thanks Rives. By upper level, I meant upper level of my house...its 2 small bedrooms and a small bathroom.

If I understand correctly, I have 2 live wires protected simultaneously by the double breaker. Does it matter how much load each one carries? For example...I can safely run 2880 watts, can that all be on just one of the 2 wires protected by the double breaker, provided the total doesn't go over the 2880?

That wattage is only available between the two hot wires - ie, at 240 volts. If you use only one hot wire (120 volts), then you would have only half of the wattage available, or 1440 watts.

 

[disciple]

 

[rives]

Interesting scenario, disciple, and possible. However, breakers like the GE Q-line appear to be (2) separate breakers tied together at the handles until someone tries to remove it from the panel. Additionally, until relatively recently it was common practice (and I believe code-compliant) to tie the handles of discrete breakers together to make them trip concurrently, transforming (2) single-pole breakers into a double-pole. This sounded like a circuit feeding a baseboard heater to me, but it certainly needs to be chased down and identified.

 

[disciple]

Interesting scenario, disciple, and possible. However, breakers like the GE Q-line appear to be (2) separate breakers tied together at the handles until someone tries to remove it from the panel. Additionally, until relatively recently it was common practice (and I believe code-compliant) to tie the handles of discrete breakers together to make them trip concurrently, transforming (2) single-pole breakers into a double-pole. This sounded like a circuit feeding a baseboard heater to me, but it certainly needs to be chased down and identified.

Oh right, of course! I completely forgot about baseboard heaters @ 240V. That could very well be the case for a 240V circuit going upstairs.

The poster did say that there were (2) separate breakers with a bar across the switches so I thought maybe the outlets in those three rooms had been installed on alternating circuits and whoever wired it wanted to make sure all the outlets in each room were disconnected at the same time.

It could very easily be 2x15A @ 120V tied together and wired as both hot legs into the 240V baseboard heaters as you wrote.

peace

 

[GolfProGrower]

Thanks for the info guys, I'm getting a real education here!

Here's a pic I took....there's a little metal bar between the 2 breakers in the area circled in red.

Would it help if I took the front panel off to take a pic?

http://imgur.com/DFp2G

 

[rives]

That looks like a factory-made double pole breaker to me. There doesn't appear to be a parting line between the two halves of the breaker (along the line between the handles) like there is on the left and right of that breaker. Have you identified what it feeds? Pulling the cover off and seeing what type/size wire is attached and whether or not they carried a neutral will help determine your options.

 

[GolfProGrower]

That looks like a factory-made double pole breaker to me. There doesn't appear to be a parting line between the two halves of the breaker (along the line between the handles) like there is on the left and right of that breaker. Have you identified what it feeds? Pulling the cover off and seeing what type/size wire is attached and whether or not they carried a neutral will help determine your options.

Thanks again Rives! I took the cover off and it is indeed a double pole breaker. Its the one with the black wire going into the left side and the red wire into the right.

It feeds 2 receptacles in each bedroom and one in the bathroom. There was an exhaust fan in the bathroom that I unplugged (theres no shower in the bathroom, just a toilet and sink so I figured I dont need it running) The white wire feeding into the box is thicker than the majority of them, but I cant make out the numbers on it....they're pink/red.

Side question....in the 2nd pic, there's a white wire that is just outside of the lower marette...should that be like that? Each of those marettes has only 1 wire in them.

http://imgur.com/a/IvOb9

 

[rives]

Ok, while it is a double-pole breaker, it is not being used as such. Perhaps the receptacles are split as Disciple suggested in order to get more circuits into those rooms, possibly the circuit was originally intended for something else, or maybe someone was too lazy to walk back to the truck and get the proper breaker! Anyhow, in the present configuration, you have (2) 120v, 15a circuits that can be used for 12a continuous loads or 1440 watts. Depending on the age of your house, the bathroom plug circuit really should be a GFCI, and recent code changes call for arc fault breakers feeding the bedroom circuits.

The white wire that has the copper exposed outside of the wire nut was stripped too long. The copper should not be exposed. If the wire nut is tight and you are uncomfortable with removing it, shortening the wire, and replacing it, then you could take a couple of wraps of electrical tape around it.

 

[disciple]

 

[GolfProGrower]

Ok, while it is a double-pole breaker, it is not being used as such. Perhaps the receptacles are split as Disciple suggested in order to get more circuits into those rooms, possibly the circuit was originally intended for something else, or maybe someone was too lazy to walk back to the truck and get the proper breaker! Anyhow, in the present configuration, you have (2) 120v, 15a circuits that can be used for 12a continuous loads or 1440 watts. Depending on the age of your house, the bathroom plug circuit really should be a GFCI, and recent code changes call for arc fault breakers feeding the bedroom circuits.

The white wire that has the copper exposed outside of the wire nut was stripped too long. The copper should not be exposed. If the wire nut is tight and you are uncomfortable with removing it, shortening the wire, and replacing it, then you could take a couple of wraps of electrical tape around it.

Yes, the bathroom plug is a GFCI. As for the exposed white wire, it looks like it's in the nut on that picture, but its not in there at all, it's loose. Should it be in the nut with the other white wire? Why would there be wire nuts on single wires, is it just to protect them?

 

[GolfProGrower]

hello guys. that's an interesting panel. dumb question but are you absolutely sure that pair of wires is feeding your upstairs?

that black wire to the right could easily be handling that business.

If you want to really do it up right, you could run new wire (ghetto style, not to code) outside of the walls up to the garden space because you have those free breakers with nothing in them and they'd handle a couple of lights.

You're kind of in a tricky spot because you'll want to know exactly which wires feed which outlets. If you're plugging in big loads like grow lights you want to not overload any single circuit.

Good luck and be safe!

I just checked and confirmed that those wires ARE supplying the upstairs...good point, until now I kind of assumed the labels were correct. But yes, they are for sure.

Theres really no way for me to figure out which wires feed with outlets without looking in the walls, right, since I cant flip the breakers individually?

My plan was originally to run a new wire as you suggested, and I think I can even do it in the wall since luckily my garden is in the bedroom directly above the panel....I should be able to fish it down. I was going to forego that plan IF I found out it was unnecessary, but now its sounding like the right move.

I have a spare double pole 15a breaker and a double pole 20a breaker...Im running 1000 watts plus a fan at the moment...but I can see running 2000 watts in the future. What's the best/safest option here?

At the moment, I have the 1000watt plus the 130 watt fan running off of the receptacles in one of the rooms. The other is my actual bedroom with a 60 watt light, max 120 watts at a time.

Thanks for the info and help guys, this is much appreciated!

 

[rives]

You should be able to identify how the circuits are fed by turning off the breaker, removing one wire at a time, and turning the breaker back on. You can then use a voltage tester to see what came back on, or plug a lamp and see what lights. Be sure and check both the top and bottom of each receptacle in case they have split the receptacles.

Trying to feed a wire from upstairs may be difficult, there should be fire-blocking in the wall, but you may be able to hit the bored holes. Pulling new wire in is by far the best option for what you want - I would definitely not leave the wire exposed and susceptible to damage. To get the maximum out of the existing parts, a 240v 20a circuit with 12 gauge wire would give you the most capacity.

 

[disciple]

 

[GolfProGrower]

Wow, thanks guys! Here is a picture of the complete panel if that answers your question about the neutrals, disciple.

http://imgur.com/KlETx

Im gonna investigate whats going on in there further tomorrow...I want this to be right. New 12 gauge wire to the double pole 20amp breaker is the best move right?

 

[rives]

Yes, get 12/3 with ground, that way you have the option of running 120 or 240.

 

[GolfProGrower]

Yes, get 12/3 with ground, that way you have the option of running 120 or 240.

Beautiful, thanks. No sense monkeying around with that mess when I can run a new dedicated line for the room.

And I forgot to mention in the last post...that white wire that is loose is paired with the single black wire that is in the wire nut right beside the where the white one is. Should they both be in that nut? What are they for if neither is connected to the panel?

 

[GolfProGrower]

I'm doing some reading about 240 volt circuits and there is a simple question that I can't find an answer to...let's say I have a 240 volt circuit, do all receptacles then have to be 240 volt receptacles...and hence requiring 240 volt ballasts?

Edit: Ok, Im immersing myself in this and getting a real education on electricity...thank you guys for your patience and guidance. If I understand correctly, upon further reading, if I run the 240 volt circuit, I would need 240 volt ballasts for my lights.

Another option would be to run 2 separate 15 volt circuits (there's a spare 15amp double pole breaker in my panel) giving me 2 120 volt outlets, each with a 1440 watt capacity, and I could run 1 light off of each safely.

Do I have this right? And if so, other than the increased capacity with the 240 volt circuit, is there any dissadvantages to running the 2 120 volt circuits besides the extra wiring? I have a 120 volt ballast, but if I were to add a 2nd, I could buy wither 120 volt or 240....I really dont anticipate running more than 2000 watts, though.

 

[rives]

You would get the most flexibility by running a 120/240v, 20a (or larger, as long as you are running fresh wire. Breakers are cheap) plug circuit upstairs and set a receptacle in a convenient spot. You could then build up a small sub-panel/lighting controller fed with a dryer/range cord and be able to have both 120 and 240 available, along with lots of control options. I think (no direct experience with them) that most of the new electronic ballasts are "universal" voltage, meaning they can run on either 120 or 240. They seem to be a bit more reliable on 240v, but it is against the NEC for 240v lighting to be used in a dwelling unit where people sleep, for whatever that's worth.

The wires that aren't terminated in the panel are apparently spares that go somewhere. If you could figure out where they went, you might have some more options.

The following is a link to one type of controller that can easily be built. Hammerhead has a good schematic for a little different version. The following link, along with a small portable sub-panel, would make a nice setup. http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/grow-light-controller.asp