There is going to be a revolution if things keep going the way they are

[SpasticGramps]

so again, the only value in gold is an imagined one.

This is correct, but that doesn't mean gold is a fiat currency. It's value doesn't come from decree. It is considered a hard currency.

Central banks are the world are hoarding gold right now. Iran is using gold to trade their oil with India, China, and Russia after the embargo was put into place.

No central governing authority decreed this to be. They have stopped using the current reserve currency USD and gold is the hard currency that has the most perceived store of value. Again not by decree, but because of its traditional perception as a reserve currency and store of value.

 

[bombadil.360]

This is correct, but that doesn't mean gold is a fiat currency. It's value doesn't come from decree. It is considered a hard currency.

No central governing authority decreed this to be.

It is a fiat currency just for the very reasons you cite; even though the decree to make it so comes from another entity rather than the government.

it is not that hard to see:

refer back to your own definition of "fiat", even cited the latin root of the word.

It is valued assigned to any thing, by arbitrary subjective means; whether such value is assigned by another subjective and arbitrary invention called "goverment" or not, is irrelevant.

in gold, the value is given by a subjective arbitrary choice decreed by another entity, not government, but the idealized and bombastic idea that the element "gold" has X or Y value.

a decree, fiat currency in the end.

but as mrcreosote said; the majority voted to decree gold to hold the value it has out of pure arbitrary subjective imaginings, you could say; so this majorty makes this value out of thin air.

just like in paper money.

same thing,

no difference at all.

 

[hunt4genetics]

I 2nd that.

 

[Hydrosun]

It is a fiat currency just for the very reasons you cite; even though the decree to make it so comes from another entity rather than the government.

it is not that hard to see:

refer back to your own definition of "fiat", even cited the latin root of the word.

It is valued assigned to any thing, by arbitrary subjective means; whether such value is assigned by another subjective and arbitrary invention called "goverment" or not, is irrelevant.

in gold, the value is given by a subjective arbitrary choice decreed by another entity, not government, but the idealized and bombastic idea that the element "gold" has X or Y value.

a decree, fiat currency in the end.

but as mrcreosote said; the majority voted to decree gold to hold the value it has out of pure arbitrary subjective imaginings, you could say; so this majorty makes this value out of thin air.

just like in paper money.

same thing,

no difference at all.

Hey I think you need to tighten up your language skills. Fiat or "By decree" was explained quite well by SG.

You mentioned coco bean. Just because they were used a currency doesn't make them fiat. Just because sea shells are used as currency doesn't make them fiat.

There needs be no vote and no majority on the value of rice, wheat, gold, or coco beans. These items are valued by traders to some degree or other IRRESPECTIVE of what ANYONE else thinks.

As for the actual and true historic value of gold, silver, copper, and brass; it can not be disputed that these metals have been valued for thousands of years and continue to be valued today. If gold had no true value wouldn't the world wake up to its worthlessness? The Egyptians, Romans, and others thought it was cool, but that was thousands of years BCE.

Shouldn't gold be on the ash heap of history if its value was imaginary or arbitrary?

The majority of this country does (or at least did) decree that religion had value. The decree of the majority does not make it so.

Government and majority decrees can not effect the laws of physics or nature. Neither can your assertion that gold is fiat. Gold is an element and commodity as you mentioned, but a fiat currency it is not! Fiat currencies are tools of the government the fact that the USA outlawed private ownership of gold is evidence enough that gold is not a fiat currency. How or why would a government outlaw a fiat currency? Couldn't they just decree the value to be ZERO and their decree would be good enough?

Oh yeah gold is not a fiat currency so they can not simply decree its value and make it so. It takes guns and threats of imprisonment for governments to steal gold from citizens. With fiat paper money the government steals by turning on the printing press, much easier than getting the populace to comply and turn over their commodity at an unrealistically low valuation.

 

[mrcreosote]

I wonder how da kine would perform as a form of currency during an economic melt down?

Probably not as good as alcohol...

Weed sharpens perception where alcohol dulls it.
Most people would rather be drunk to avoid the reality that a lot of the modern support systems we rely on are going to be severely restrained because the providers are overloaded with debt. Local govt.s dependent on disappearing Federal money and borrowing will fare the worst and will reduce and cut services the most with a corresponding rise in taxes.

I'm guessing that people would rather be drunk to dull the pain of impact as they blow right through the gossamer thin, much heralded, 'safety net'.

 

[hunt4genetics]

Poppy production would also amp up.

 

[skullznroses]

Id give your mom a Nurro Massage your mom for four gold bricks and three migdets with AIDS

 

[el dub]

Gold may not be a fiat currency in a civilized society. However, if the world economy should collapse, I can foresee a period when favored currencies are made up of commodities more precious to survival than certain metals.

 

[skullznroses]

Probably not as good as alcohol...

Weed sharpens perception where alcohol dulls it.
Most people would rather be drunk to avoid the reality that a lot of the modern support systems we rely on are going to be severely restrained because the providers are overloaded with debt. Local govt.s dependent on disappearing Federal money and borrowing will fare the worst and will reduce and cut services the most with a corresponding rise in taxes.

I'm guessing that people would rather be drunk to dull the pain of impact as they blow right through the gossamer thin, much heralded, 'safety net'.

Federal money? Damn you're making too much sense brotha

 

[mrcreosote]

My guess is the Saudis will pass on that basket with pork bellies in it.

 

[lost in a sea]

im setting up the World Cannabis Bank right now

and officially cannabis is the new currency

reality is all manifested from our brains outwards,, to make a change first you have live it..

 

[AcidHouse]

I'd rather deal in seeds than e-cash.

We need a "calm, submissive state", to have the knowledge, intelligence to make your own judgements.

"Listen to everyone, read everything, believe absolutely nothing unless you can prove it in your own right." - William Cooper

The 'black bloc' and revolution through destruction has never given a positive result. Shit i want to kennel those guys and 're-habilitate' them.

 

[SpasticGramps]

refer back to your own definition of "fiat", even cited the latin root of the word.

I'll post the definition for you again.

Wiki

Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat, meaning "let it be done" or "it shall be [money]", as such money is established by government decree. Where fiat money is used as currency, the term fiat currency is used.

Gold is a commodity that has been used as currency and a store of value for centuries. It's value comes not from government regulation or government law therefore it is not a fiat currency. It's known in economics as a the longest lasting hard currency. Fiat currencies can be hard currencies, but they come and go. Gold is the only hard currency that has retained it's store of value as hundreds of fiat currencies have come and gone. It gets it's value from centuries of perception that it is a store of value not by government decree. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

Wiki

Hard currency (also known as a safe-haven currency or strong currency), in economics, refers to a globally traded currency that is expected to serve as a reliable and stable store of value.

Varying theories of monetary policy, and the ever-present risk of unexpected geopolitical and policy events, preclude any claim of a currency's hardness from being called definitive. Precious metals have been the most resilient currencies, with physical gold historically outlasting all forms of paper fiat money and gold certificates.

Quantitative easing, credit downgrades, and other events of the late-2000s financial crisis have generally eroded the security of most fiat money, making it difficult to define any as a hard currency.

Gold isn't fiat currency to call it so is a perversion of the definition and a failure of reading comprehension.

 

[SpasticGramps]

Gold may not be a fiat currency in a civilized society. However, if the world economy should collapse, I can foresee a period when favored currencies are made up of commodities more precious to survival than certain metals.

Certainly a possibility. Especially for the poor and middle classes.

 

[lost in a sea]

I'll post the definition for you again.

Gold is a commodity that has been used as currency and a store of value for centuries. It's value comes not from government regulation or government law therefore it is not a fiat currency. It's known in economics as a the longest lasting hard currency. Fiat currencies can be hard currencies, but they come and go. Gold is the only hard currency that has retained it's store of value as hundreds of fiat currencies have come and gone. It gets it's value from centuries of perception that it is a store of value not by government decree. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

Gold isn't fiat currency to call it so is a perversion of the definition and a failure of reading comprehension.

well said

 

[SacredBreh]

Damn good discussion going on in here today!

Appreciate all the intelligence in here.

Peace

 

[SpasticGramps]

a decree, fiat currency in the end.

I understand what you are saying about the market psychology part of it. But fiat currency is traded on the FX exchange. Physical gold is traded on the commodity exchange. There is a large difference.

You don't get to just make up new words and change definitions to explain away why gold has this thing in the market called "value," or more precisely store of value.

Hard Currencies = "majority" decreed store of value

Fiat Currencies = Government decreed store of value

 

[bombadil.360]

I understand what you are saying about the market psychology part of it. But fiat currency is traded on the FX exchange. Physical gold is traded on the commodity exchange. There is a large difference.

You don't get to just make up new words and change definitions to explain away why gold has this thing in the market called "value," or more precisely store of value.

Hard Currencies = "majority" decreed store of value

Fiat Currencies = Government decreed store of value

hard currency or fiat currency, it does not change the fact that both originate from an act of imagination.

I think everyone in the thread, including yourself, have given examples of this.

cacao beans, salt, livestock, etc...

gold can have many more points in its favor in contrast to paper-notes or little numbers on a computer screen; gold has more uses for one.

but as pointed out before; gold is not a necessity, it has no real value to our actual needs. so its actual value is pretty much imagined. it is like people who want to buy the lastest fashion item each time it comes out, because they perceived an imagined value in doing so.

same with gold.

think of it this way:

even if government had chosen actual physical gold as the physical and actual representation of value it has decreed as its official currency (like paper note money is today); gold would behave the same way as paper notes do.

gold has its very ugly side too; like legal and illegal mining methods that seriously damage ecosystems, etc...tons of people already perceived tons of other things to hold way more intrinsic value than gold has ever had.

if there were a revolution and economic melt down you guys speak of, this will surely come with a social melt down, a serious adjustment of priorities and a re-examination of what we perceived as valuable; in such scenario, with a little luck, those who placed their 'wealth' in gold, will be able to eat it or give it some other use.

which reminds me of an actual historical fact; if I remember properly, the jivaros of ecuador were getting killed and all their gold was being stolen by the spaniards during the colonization of south america; one certain dude whose name I forget, was caught by a group of warrior-like jivaros, tied him up to his big heavy wooden bed, a bed he made his soldiers carry on shoulder through the jungle btw; the jivaros melted a lot of gold, opened the conquistador's mouth and made him drink the hot molten gold.

that was too late to re-examine value for him though

 

[bombadil.360]

where did I read: "out of nothing we will imagine our values, and through this act of invention so shall we live" ?

 

[mrcreosote]

The fact that pork-bellies could be included in a reserve commodities basket is all the proof you need that men know bacon is one of our precious trade goods, right up there with gold and oil.

Can you imagine the panic if some evil entity tried to corner the bacon market?

There would be gun-play.