Organic Soil and Drainage...
- Thread starter t33to
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wtf does constancy (a character trait in humans) have to do with anything? Maybe you mean UNIFORMITY?
powdered DE is very uniform compared to calcined. Do you feel it makes a better amendment for drainage and aeration? If we take powdered DE and run it through a special sieve so that the particles are even more uniform, will it change air porosity?
if you want to understand how particles interact, just take some piles of uniform particles of increasing size and get them wet, then handle them. then mix them together in varying degrees and see how that changes.
the largest particles will stick to each other the least, while the smallest particles stick to each other the most. Small particles stick to particles of other size not quite as tightly as to a particle of the same size.
If you mix 10% of calcined DE of large size with 90% clay, you have a ball of clay with bits of DE that will act almost exactly like a ball of clay with no DE.
If you mix 90% calcined DE with 10% clay, you get the opposite situation.
If you remove some of the large chunks of DE and replace them with fines of the same material, it is just like adding small particles of any other material. Water porosity is increased, while air porosity is decreased.
how the particles behave is almost entirely due to their SIZE. The recipes tossed around here are formulas for blending particles of different size to get a given texture.
We also give names to the elements of mineral soil based on their SIZE. Small particles are called CLAY, medium particles are called SILT, and the largest are called SAND. The relative amounts of each particle type determine the physical properties of that soil overall. The component we are trying to increase with calcined DE is SAND. If we go back to the days before perlite, SHARP sand (not playground sand) was the equivalent, and calcined DE/turface behaves pretty much the same way, except it is much lighter (but not as light as perlite).
soil aggregates help by changing the effective SIZE of a particle by sticking it so tightly to another that the two act as one. optimal conditions are achieved when there is a hierarchy of aggregates. This is what we hope will happen as the peat is consumed, so that we don't experience collapse. In the meantime though, we have calcined DE/turface, which are massive aggregates created using intense heat.
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so why do we want chunky perlite and chunky DE?
because the other particles we are adding (peat in particular) are already giving us our quota of small particles. If we want to include the fines and still get good results, we need to cut something else out of the picture. Specifically, we are cutting out something organic that will turn to humus, or some of the topsoil if that is in the mix.
this is entirely feasible as shown by hh, but the recipes in use here, which are very good for beginners, already include too many particles in the size range seen in the DE fines.
My own preference is for screening out the fines even when not following a recipe, because I feel they are too dense to fit into the no-till picture later on down the line.
The recipe I feel works best with screened DE as a 1:1 perlite replacement is Verdant Green's recipe from his topsoil in the mix thread, making sure that clay content is at least 5% for the whole mix. LC mix works too though.
because the other particles we are adding (peat in particular) are already giving us our quota of small particles. If we want to include the fines and still get good results, we need to cut something else out of the picture. Specifically, we are cutting out something organic that will turn to humus, or some of the topsoil if that is in the mix.
this is entirely feasible as shown by hh, but the recipes in use here, which are very good for beginners, already include too many particles in the size range seen in the DE fines.
My own preference is for screening out the fines even when not following a recipe, because I feel they are too dense to fit into the no-till picture later on down the line.
The recipe I feel works best with screened DE as a 1:1 perlite replacement is Verdant Green's recipe from his topsoil in the mix thread, making sure that clay content is at least 5% for the whole mix. LC mix works too though.
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so let's take a look at VG's recipe
If I substitue unscreened DE for the perlite, I wind up with much fewer perlite-sized pieces than I would otherwise have. Things would get too heavy. Keep in mind, even the chunkiest DE is not as chunky as chunky perlite. I'm equating the two because it's close enough, but barely. In reality I always adjust with a bit more screened DE.
now LC:
this one is is 30% perlite sized pieces and 50% peat sized pieces. if you substitute unscreened DE or turface, you wind up with only 20% or less perlite sized pieces. again, too heavy.
who is up for calculating how much DE it would take relative to peat to get the right texture assuming that up to 33% of it by volume is in a size range from 1/64th of an inch to 3/16ths of an inch?
If I substitue unscreened DE for the perlite, I wind up with much fewer perlite-sized pieces than I would otherwise have. Things would get too heavy. Keep in mind, even the chunkiest DE is not as chunky as chunky perlite. I'm equating the two because it's close enough, but barely. In reality I always adjust with a bit more screened DE.
now LC:
this one is is 30% perlite sized pieces and 50% peat sized pieces. if you substitute unscreened DE or turface, you wind up with only 20% or less perlite sized pieces. again, too heavy.
who is up for calculating how much DE it would take relative to peat to get the right texture assuming that up to 33% of it by volume is in a size range from 1/64th of an inch to 3/16ths of an inch?
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hahahahahahhahaa!
Guys we are doing what we do best and that is breaking down. HOWEVER, if you notice, we've lost the interest of the original poster...either his question is now answered or he is no longer participating in this conversation...
PERHAPS, it has traveled outside the scope of his personal use. I say we real it back in a bit.
To keep it short and simple I choose DE over perlite for many reasons. MOSTLY because it can be reused time and time again from the soil. It doesn't degrade nor does it's performance in the mix shift over time. It DOES retain more water and DOES retain more "nutrients" for a lack of better terminology and to keep it simple in theory, than perlite does within the medium. This to me is KEY.
This allows me to reduce the amount of fertilizer type component I need to grow my garden...as their retention and uptake is more efficient. THIS is primarily why DE over perlite, in my opinion. Silicate aside.
For a beginner, to use perlite is fine. To use DE is also just as fine. These two discussing their usage does not make using it more complicated. It simply means they like to think about things to the "nth" degree. Learn from their usage experience. Don't be intimated by it. It really is as easy as mixing the stuff together. BUT you can achieve more controlled and precise - repeatable - results, IF you follow their advice and use their own learning curve they have shared with you...
dank.Frank
Guys we are doing what we do best and that is breaking down. HOWEVER, if you notice, we've lost the interest of the original poster...either his question is now answered or he is no longer participating in this conversation...
PERHAPS, it has traveled outside the scope of his personal use. I say we real it back in a bit.
To keep it short and simple I choose DE over perlite for many reasons. MOSTLY because it can be reused time and time again from the soil. It doesn't degrade nor does it's performance in the mix shift over time. It DOES retain more water and DOES retain more "nutrients" for a lack of better terminology and to keep it simple in theory, than perlite does within the medium. This to me is KEY.
This allows me to reduce the amount of fertilizer type component I need to grow my garden...as their retention and uptake is more efficient. THIS is primarily why DE over perlite, in my opinion. Silicate aside.
For a beginner, to use perlite is fine. To use DE is also just as fine. These two discussing their usage does not make using it more complicated. It simply means they like to think about things to the "nth" degree. Learn from their usage experience. Don't be intimated by it. It really is as easy as mixing the stuff together. BUT you can achieve more controlled and precise - repeatable - results, IF you follow their advice and use their own learning curve they have shared with you...
dank.Frank
All said and done, I'd be sourcing rice hulls if they were local. If NAPA was down the street, I'd go there. I no longer have pumice in my yard. The point is, use what you got and make it work. Google can be a great friend in doing so.
Work on your soil first. It should drain without amendments. Read the recipes. Even if you don't follow them. They are good guidelines.
A good fungal soil, with it's sponge like qualities, I believe is essential.
Yucca as a wetting agent.
http://www.anagalide.com/EN/data/yucca/yuccaagricen.pdf
A fibrous medium. Monocots. Hemp. Lots of yucca along with palm in the worm bins.
Oats. I'm still testing out. Maybe a little hard on seedlings.
They serve as a fungal food while binding soil, leaving a very porous structure.
While these can be argued or added to, they're what works for me.In fact the medium was draining too fast to the point I was using dirty water made from washing out the local sand to get the clay and the loam.
Don't mix your soil, build it.
As noted by Mad, I don't use the nutrients listed in the recipes. At least not mixed in. It's easy enough to top dress if deficiencies appear. It's hard to get it out if you get burn, plus it messes with drainage.
Work on your soil first. It should drain without amendments. Read the recipes. Even if you don't follow them. They are good guidelines.
A good fungal soil, with it's sponge like qualities, I believe is essential.
Yucca as a wetting agent.
http://www.anagalide.com/EN/data/yucca/yuccaagricen.pdf
A fibrous medium. Monocots. Hemp. Lots of yucca along with palm in the worm bins.
Oats. I'm still testing out. Maybe a little hard on seedlings.
They serve as a fungal food while binding soil, leaving a very porous structure.
While these can be argued or added to, they're what works for me.In fact the medium was draining too fast to the point I was using dirty water made from washing out the local sand to get the clay and the loam.
Don't mix your soil, build it.
As noted by Mad, I don't use the nutrients listed in the recipes. At least not mixed in. It's easy enough to top dress if deficiencies appear. It's hard to get it out if you get burn, plus it messes with drainage.
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I'm certainly going to try screening my next batch of DE....and go back to using just it without perlite and see if it makes the big difference...
I'm always learning new stuff as well...
dank.Frank
I'm always learning new stuff as well...
dank.Frank
V
vonforne
After reading up a löittle more and this thread. I think I will also. I have not used just DE yet but it would make a great side by side grow with some clones.
V
