WTF? Different Clones from Same Mother?

[mofeta]

Here is a thread to discuss the "clones taken from the same mother being different" topic.

I think the guys in the "Cookies" thread would appreciate us getting out of there.


I know the text in the following images is small, if you can't read it, you can either go to the Cookies thread (HERE is the start of this discussion) and read them there, or you can press the Ctrl key on your computer and while holding it down, use the scroll wheel on your mouse to zoom in.

 

[BagseedSamurai]

Either there were different environments for the clones, or the clones did not come from the same plant.

 

[Yes4Prop215]

i always take my cuttings from my most vigourous top branches......whenever i take clones from the spindly lower branches the resulting plant never looks as healthy as my top clones....end result might be similar but yield definately aint as good..

 

[Hammerhead]

Has anyone seen this ??? I have not ....

 

[joe fresh]

well i have this thread here... https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=230402


og kush seeds were ordered from reserva privada(feminized), then took a bunch of clones, then sent in the mom and clones into flowering...this is the only clone that looks like this, the rest are growing normally and ALL are in the same room under same conditions and get fed the same

 

[dizzlekush]

Mosaicism, Somatic Mutation and/or Phenotypic Plasticity can possibly play roles in such a scenario. never seen it myself in cannabis.

 

[schwilly]

phenotype = genotype + environment

or something. that's what they taught us in genetics.

 

[mofeta]

That sounds almost like a chimera. Is it plausible for somatic sport mutation to be piecemeal, so cells with both genetics are prevalent in a cutting?

Good comment!

This is possible, but I don't think that's whats up with josey's sourdubb.

Sometimes a chimera formed from a somatic mutation can make a "mixed" cut that is a genetic mosaic. A lot of ornamental plants that are variegated are chimeras.

If this was the case with josey's plant, you would expect the "dudd" cuts to be a mix of good and dudd.

Now if it was a somatic mutation that arose at some point in the growth of the plant, and the plant was a mosaic, not mixed, but with all growth arising after the mutation point being the dudd variety, I think Josey would have noticed this.

It's funny, but in the Cookies thread I was telling people that I thought somatic mutation in Cannabis was relatively rare, and then I saw this thread, where it seems joe fresh may have a real somatic mutation on his hands.

 

[mofeta]

well i have this thread here... https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=230402


og kush seeds were ordered from reserva privada(feminized), then took a bunch of clones, then sent in the mom and clones into flowering...this is the only clone that looks like this, the rest are growing normally and ALL are in the same room under same conditions and get fed the same

Hey Joe

I just saw that thread last night, WOW!

I do think that that might be a somatic mutation.

When I first saw the pictures, I thought "ethylene problem", and was going to ask questions about any exposure to chemicals or unusual stress.

When I noticed that only parts of the plant had the problem, I then thought, wow, I bet that is a somatic mutation.

The question I have is this:

Did the strange parts all occur in baranches that diverged from the main stem above a certain point? Or is it all mixed up?

 

[headband 707]

phenotype = genotype + environment

or something. that's what they taught us in genetics.

Yup ,Yup ,Yup this is exactly right headband 707

 

[purple_man]

i guess a somatic mutation would be one of the few plausible explanations, where due to environmental factors, a mutation occured in a part, spread partially and created a "chimera". somatic mutations occur in tissue cultures (non cannabis) at diffrent rates, even as high as 1 per 1000 per somatic cell (if working with protoplast or callus cultures), then again, since every somatic cell in the organels also underly a "functionial/genetical" competition, only one should be able to remain in the system (when it comes to in vivo and tissues of a higher compartimental aggregation). so i guess, the "chimerism"/variegation was there from the beginning, similar to other chimeras where different branches sport different leaf/flower coloring hence geno/chemo or phenotype. still, i guess it's a mislabeled cut

blessss

 

[gloryoskie]

So I have two cuts of the same donor mum flowering.
Cut A was vegged several weeks topped/pruned to get 4 colas.
Cut B was vegged as a single cola.

Cut A colas have an entirely different flower growth pattern than cut B.
Is it the veg time primarily accounting for the difference?

I'm new at this so its new to me. I'll post pics if you require that.

 

[joe fresh]

@gloryoskie

its because all the growth id focused into one bud right at the top rather than distributed evenly among the plant, veg time has nothing to do with it

 

[praisehim.]

phenotype = genotype + environment

or something. that's what they taught us in genetics.

^^we have a winner.

 

[softyellowlight]

i guess a somatic mutation would be one of the few plausible explanations, where due to environmental factors, a mutation occured in a part, spread partially and created a "chimera". somatic mutations occur in tissue cultures (non cannabis) at diffrent rates, even as high as 1 per 1000 per somatic cell (if working with protoplast or callus cultures), then again, since every somatic cell in the organels also underly a "functionial/genetical" competition, only one should be able to remain in the system (when it comes to in vivo and tissues of a higher compartimental aggregation). so i guess, the "chimerism"/variegation was there from the beginning, similar to other chimeras where different branches sport different leaf/flower coloring hence geno/chemo or phenotype. still, i guess it's a mislabeled cut

blessss

Actually, I don't think anything (unless someone's going to pull out papers to that effect of course ) should rule out the possibility that we wildly underestimate the prevalence of somatic mutation and of chimerism in cannabis.

Given that there is actually no reason for true "competition" within a plant and given relatively minor sorts of somatic mutations, I actually don't see any reason why it is not possible for a number of quite different DNA sequences to arise in "one" plant. It is not like cancer cells and regular cells competing. In order to investigate this sort of possibility, I think one would need access to a DNA sequencer in order to assay a great number of samples on each plant, after selecting for plants among varying genetic lineages that tend to show somatic sport mutation more often (relative to varieties that are extremely stable with cutting propogation.)

 

[foaf]

In humans/mammals there are tons of viruses that can't be easily tested for and have minimal symptoms or possibly just predispose to variable genetic expression, making identification and understanding difficult.

I wonder if the same is true in plants.

 

[Cool Moe]

Here's an article that sheds some light:

"Why Plant 'Clones' Aren't Identical"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804212931.htm

 

[Aeroguerilla]

My mother had a Kona x skunk x neville haze cross that she brought back from flower 4x on the same plant. each time she revegged it the final product would be slightly diffrent. we took a few cuts off each reveg cycle and the clones were diffrent to. seems the plant goes thru some kind of mutation when reveging but ive never got different cuts off a mother that hasnt been revegged

 

[mofeta]

Here's an article that sheds some light:

"Why Plant 'Clones' Aren't Identical"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804212931.htm

Yeah that's interesting, but it's about plants derived from tissue culture, not stem cuttings.

 

[Cool Moe]

Yeah that's interesting, but it's about plants derived from tissue culture, not stem cuttings.

They specifically reference documented DNA variances in cuttings of plants, not tissue cultures. Either way I'm no scientist, I just remembered reading this article and thought it was relevant to your thread. Hope you find the answer you're lookin' for.