HGL Technology 336X & Ultraviolet Surround

[Phaeton]

I'm better now. The waiting game has begun.

The budroom temps went down 10 degrees right off. Instead of cooking all the surfaces HID touches, the LED heats up the air. Move the air and the heat is gone, no longer necessary to blow enough air through to cool the walls, tables, floor, reflectors, all of that.
The flip side is the entire house I have been warming with the waste heat. All that warm air added 4 degrees to the rest of the house. Fixed now.

This is my main budroom now, not a test room. There will not be any stand alone LED yield numbers whatsoever. Zip, zero, nada.

The overheads are 2500 watts of LED, but the sidelights are 2800 watts of fluorescent. This will significantly alter the numbers I am sure. Will post them anyway, but past experience with sidelighting leads me to believe the numbers will be greater.

MPL:
The green light passes and penetration were from one of spurr's downloads he posted from a pay site. I did over sixty hours of reading and did not track all the references for posterity. I'll give it a shot at finding again, I had it saved for awhile as I read it five times before it made sense.

Anyway, it is growing and whether or not the LED's at 2500 watts outperform the HID's at 4000 watts will be known for sure.
The HID's also had sidelights, so this is a valid comparison.

The intensity had be pulled back, 1000 umol of LED PAR light way way outperforms 1000 umol of HID PAR., No yellow or off shade greens and blues, which although PAR light, do not do near as much. The current nute program is not keeping up, obvious in just four days.

 

[Phaeton]

I got some requests about the meters I use.

The quantum meter is Apogee Instruments model MQ100. Point and shoot for $300, models with USB outputs and remote sensors cost more.

Red meter is Solartech 9.6, blue is Solartech 9.4, and UVB is Solartech 6.2, these average about $200 each.

When setting up the same types of lights, the lumen meter works fine, all the light is the same proportions and the reading reflects the relative power. But mixing and matching HID's, LED's and fluorescents is difficult without more tools than the one meter.

 

[VerdantGreen]

looks good, im just about to try a smaller one of these units as a replacement for my 250 hps (i'll start a new grow diary)- so i'll be watching with interest.
..........

VG

 

[Kcar]

Nobody else noticed the similarities?

 

[Phaeton]

Actually, I had not, too close to them.

Beam me up!

 

[Phaeton]

It has been a week. LED's are not the same.

After I pulled the plant tops back to 800 umol (HID was 900-1000) the growth quit outpacing the nutes as much.
Running the room in the 77-79 degree range also helped slow it down.
Nute schedules are in the process of change, more often at same concentration is first guess. Heat is up to 83 in anticipation. It only take a few days to show, if it is more subtle than that I ignore it.

I put plants in at many stages.
The first pic has been budding since christmas eve.
Same plant is in second pic after seven days LED.
Third is closeup.
Last up is a shot into the middle, good lower growth on the sides not bathed by the sidelights. Five of the larger fan leaves yellowed, these were leaves brushing the sidelights before the move and on the inside away from the sidelights after the move. Lack of light gets the blame.

Otherwise I am more than satisfied with the first week's performance. The lights outperform my current skill level.

 

[GP73LPC]

wow, looks like everyone is happy

 

[whazzup]

Nice thread again Pheaton . I think you would be surprised though how much light a modern horticultural 1000W HPS fixture generates: you get 2000 umol/s out of the fixture. I think LED has a great future but I think a wide, full continuous spectrum incl. UVA and UVB and FR and IR is the key. What I seein grows using plasma light (which includes UBA, UVB but very little IR) at levels as average HID grows (600-700 umol) is interesting and to some degree coincides with your findings:

1. The plants used about 1/3 less water than the HID lit plants (less evaporation by less IR on the plant, lower leaf temperature)
2. The full spectrum grown plants had a much better leaf ratio (less leafs) and better structure (optimal leaf position for light interception - top lit)
3. I could recognize the specific room just by smelling. It was cooler, but much more fragrant than the HID lit. Research supports the enhanced, and for some strains greatly enhanced production of terpines (up to 400%)
4. Though at first sight it seemed that the plasma grow would yield a bit less than the HID lit counterparts, the weight was surprisingly within statistical limits. The flowers were much more compact and even very deep in the plant the flowers were full and dense.
5. The plasma grow stayed green until the end. The blue light is a key in regenerating the photosynthetic system. The HID grows all had leaf wilting in the last week and were really up for harvesting. I could have let the plasma grown go for another week.
6. Early browning of the pistils due to UVA/UVB light. I seem to remember you saw the same thing in your previous trial.
7. The effect. Though cannabinoid levels were slightly increased (tested with full cannabinoid TLC analysis - but that could also be caused by more compact flower development) there was a distinguishable difference in effect. I saw slightly increased levels of THCV in the plasma grown product, and that can be a very powerful catalyst in very low quantities. That could explain the more powerful experience smoking it. It is much more complex, but every effect seems like amplified.

Let me give you my current example . I am smoking a Kronocaine now, flowered 4 rainy weeks outdoor and finished indoor under 600W HPS and plasma. The high Amnesia Haze touch makes your hair itch. The stoned Herijuana punch though is the creeper. It hits you like a steam strain. (I hid the spam )

I had the opportunity for many blind test with the plasma versus HID grown material. I presented the HID amnesia haze first, and then presented the plasma grown amnesia haze (clone from same mother) as a slightly different pheno by another grower. Every test the plasma grown weed won. It had a lot of impact and at a forum meeting in Rotterdam last summer an experienced smoker had to lie down for half an hour after taking a few hits too fast .

But this stuff you can only experience. I am glad that people like you put it to the test and go to the limits. There are more plasma trials on their way too on this forum, so those are some to watch.

One of the researches I was referring to I attached. I know you like to read . It has some good UVB intensity references. I think you are still on the high side with the UVB, especially since you give it continuously. As always I follow your topic.

 

[Phaeton]

Thank you, good read.
I received some out of date R-Zilla lights by error, the output starts right at 280 nm and does considerable more damage than the 290 nm cutoff formula Zilla uses now. The part of the study about UVC almost convinces me to keep them, but as you noticed, I use a fairly large amount.

But I did not get 'in my face' results until the level was high enough to begin actual stunting of the plant. I am too impatient for subtle effects right now. So as soon as the new Zilla's are in I will have 960 watts of 10% UVB in the surround. At 640 watts the UVB meter puts the average at full desert sun at high noon during solstice on the equator.
I want to bump it up the mountain a bit. The new findings show high frequency damage to be less a problem and in some cases beneficial. This is still less UVB than my test plants endured.

This lecture is a good five years newer than the last I had refered to me. A lot of details have been hammered out, a fair amount by trial and error. That is genuine work. Nice find.

 

[Phaeton]

cooling

cooling

The room is over 5000 total watts of heat being produced. Upstairs room with a single door.

I cut a hole in the upper rear corner and suck air into a lung room (just heard the term, I like it) then continues on as supplemental heat for the house.

The high hanging thermometer is out of the LED beams and reads 4 degrees lower than the thermometer hanging a foot lower in the beams. Heat distribution is different, but air management controls it easier than the radiated heat from HID. Fewer fans are needed among the plants themselves.

The fan is 24" rated 4000 CFM, presently running on low setting. Summer is coming, it will not be -47 forever, it just seems like it.

Cabin fever is wearing at me, its been cold since christmas.

 

[Phaeton]

Part of choosing a vendor is their service, how do they handle errors or problems.
In another thread a member had a problem with HGL and printed both his complaint as well as their replies.
I was impressed, part of the reasoning that led me to choose HGL.

Now the meat.
I purchased five 336X growlights. Each light has sixteen arrays.
Out of the eighty LED arrays, two of them quit dead. All twenty-one LED's in each array do not light up.
2.5% failure rate.
I called the company. I emailed the requested photo and they emailed a checklist and modular crossover connection list. Since I am comfortable with electronics I now get to open it up and check power supplies. It does sound like a power supply problem, and if it is they will send new power supplies and I get the use of the fourteen array's still functioning.
What ever it is not functioning, if I can determine the part it needs they will accommodate me without my sending back the unit.

I like that, even if everything connected to the dead lens' array is melted, the other's are working and above the plants while this goes on.

I posted the picture just because I like it. That is the last of the four tube T8 fixtures (FloraSun tubes) in the room. Replaced by T5.

Whazzup: I did some extracts of the high UVB sativa and indica. The oil turned out the same as previous extracts, both by percentage of oil and perceived high.
My guess is the modifiers are polar and not coming out in the hexane.
The effects in the two strains from the UVB apparently comes from the same chemical agent. Indica sedates me normally, and when the rest of the high creeps up I go to sleep. Sativa wide awake confuses me, when it creeps up I am too high. I suspect the same agent at work in both cases. The control plants do not creep.
Limited equipment and subjective results. Just trying to stay high.

 

[whazzup]

Interesting. It could be THCV, though that is normally associated with a flashy experience. It does seem to intensify. Many strains that origin from high grounds or are grown there contain THCV.

 

[yesum]

I had the same thing with a HGL light I have. They sent me a new power supply and it was fixed.

I am hoping for increased potency with the indica and more trippy effect with the sativa that I grow with uvb.

 

[Phaeton]

Concerning those two dead LED sets.
I swapped the leads from the power supplies, no change. I swapped the harness pairs to the lights, no change.

HGL has two new LED assemblies on the way, the light is being rehung and the fourteen working sets will be working on the plant leaves until the arrival of the new lens assemblies.

I do like this warranty method much better than shipping units back and forth with all the accompanying downtime. All it took was a photo of the non working LED's.
Add that to the fact that the first two weeks have outgrown the same time period compared to HID.
Oh yeah, plus the growth happened with 2500 watts LED versus 4000 watts HID.
To say I am happy with every aspect of the new room is an understatement. Beyond expectations.

I was told I would be mildly surprised at the increase. No shit.

My christmas eve plant is looking good, more pictures next week. I want to do pictures every day, but then they all look the same.

 

[GP73LPC]

Add that to the fact that the first two weeks have outgrown the same time period compared to HID.
Oh yeah, plus the growth happened with 2500 watts LED versus 4000 watts HID.
To say I am happy with every aspect of the new room is an understatement. Beyond expectations.

I was told I would be mildly surprised at the increase. No shit.

that's great to hear Phaeton, glad you are diggin your new arrays...

 

[Phaeton]

I put the meters to the LED array with a camera in my other hand. The little piece of rod above the readout is 24" long for steady distance.

Blue is 3.2 milliwatts.
Red is 11.5 milliwats.
PAR is 752 umol.

CMH readings at 12" (not pictured), blue 2.2, red 5.1, PAR 559.
The LED is TWICE as far away, every reading is still higher.

The UVB surround is 138 microwatts at 12" from the Reptisun 10's. Been that way on purpose since design.
I got in the new Arcadia D3+ T5 HO's after I took the pictures. I got a reading of 450 at 12".
Cancelled the picture of the UVB reading for this time. I am going to redo both sets as that is a major difference. Too major to be casual about. If nothing is screwed up on my part...


:kitty:

 

[Highlighter]

Outstanding!

 

[Phaeton]

These new Arcadia tubes really do put out more UVB than Reptisun.
The photo's are at 8". The reptisun output varied from 100 microwatts (uw) to 152, the arcadia output varied little, stable from 415 to 432.

The ratio is 1:4 UVB T5, 3:6 UVB T8. The design called for 200 uw ambient, that was before this light went public.

Hard decisions.
Over 300 uw will cause quite a reduction in yield.
Over 300 uw will generate noticable stronger creeper effects.
Dang, when it wasn't available this decision did not need to be made.

 

[rives]

CMH readings at 12" (not pictured), blue 2.2, red 5.1, PAR 559.
The LED is TWICE as far away, every reading is still higher.

These readings are for a 400w CMH?

 

[Phaeton]

This is the bulb, phillips 400 watt CMH pulse start.
And the meter was pointed at the left bulb from 12". The reflectix was taken down for the reading.
I use the meters every time I move plants around, eyes do not work well enough for this. These are representative #'s of white enamel low bay reflectors. I still have three retro white and three pulse start CMH's in the veg/clone rooms.

Here are the pictures of the CMH readings as well, the plant is at 10", the readings are at 12".