the potential in south america

[Barbanegra]

Von Hanf ist die Rede by the late Hans-Georg Behr -> I encourage anyone of you, who can read German, to get this fantastic book! It's a great read and very erudite.

Even if there was hemp growing in Americas prior to Spanish conquest, there is no doubt that the Europeans brought their own seeds and cultivated hemp for rope on a grand scale over centuries.
Behr mentions in his book a Spanish edict from 1545 that orders the cultivation of hemp in Chile, Peru and Colombia. Government reports remark that the Colombian harvests of 1607, 1610 and 1632 were very bad. In 1789 Antonio Silvestre was consulted, a hemp specialist from south-eastern Spain, and excerpts from his report survived. The crop failure in highland Colombia was so bad that there wasn't even stock for next planting. Silvestre suggested Cartagena as a new cultivation area and the import of fresh stock from Spain.


Against the idea that there was no smoking prior to the 1500s speak the finds of ancient Roman and Egyptian pipes.

Edit: It's a controversial topic. Some say the iron pipes found in the Roman farm and exhibited in Salzburgs Carolinum Augusteum come in fact from the 18/19th century. The book by Behr I mentioned depicts a gallo-roman bronze pipe from around 180 AD from Macon, in the collection of Museum in Nimes. He writes also about many pipe and chilum finds in ancient graves from Egypt to Turkey, the pipes were never used. That is where I got it from.

 

[motaco]

Yeah actually it IS open to debate still , prior to talking down to another individual you might wish to ascertain exactly where they're at in terms of knowledge

Firstly I didn't talk down to you. But now I will. It is only open to debate among uneducated people who come up with hair brained ideas. Its open for debate in the same manner as if crop circles were created by aliens. Or if Atlantis was a civilization of super humans.

Your complete lack of grasp about the vast time differences between the people who came across the Bering land bridge during the ice age, and the people who first began agriculture can not be understated. I'm not going to argue with you about things you were supposed to learn in grade school.

Against the idea that there was no smoking prior to the 1500s speak the finds of ancient Roman and Egyptian pipes.

Do you have a link to this? I've looked before but found no evidence of it from anyone credible. All the things I've seen about smoking prior to the Columbian Exchange were burned in a manner like incense. Do you have any info specifically about ancient smoking pipes? As opposed to just references of smoking from ancient texts.

For instance I remember reading about the Scythian vapor baths, and about "drinking smoke" from some other ancient text. But after reading more it was them draping a cloth over their head and leaning over a chalice with herbs burning in it, and then inhaling the smoke. But that is quite different from a pipe you carry around a pack with herbs.

Both Chillums and Hookahs for instance are post Columbian exchange.

 

[Bluenote]

Firstly I didn't talk down to you. But now I will. It is only open to debate among uneducated people who come up with hair brained ideas. Its open for debate in the same manner as if crop circles were created by aliens. Or if Atlantis was a civilization of super humans.

Your complete lack of grasp about the vast time differences between the people who came across the Bering land bridge during the ice age, and the people who first began agriculture can not be understated. I'm not going to argue with you about things you were supposed to learn in grade school.



Do you have a link to this? I've looked before but found no evidence of it from anyone credible.

Yeah you DID , and now you're of course doing it again. One would think that an individual such as yourself in all your psuedo-intellectual glory would be able to utilise and correctly spell the common colloquialism HARE-brained as opposed to HAIR brained.


Furthermore if YOU knew even a small modicum of what you have so snottily set yourself up as "expert" on you'd KNOW that the subject of the Bering bridge emigrations , along with the genesis of agriculture ARE STILL much debated in academic and historical circles.

Problem is that *you* have zero wish to actually examine the question from all the available angles , what YOU wish to do is pound your chest and proclaim yourself completely correct in a rather overbearing and grandiose manner.

Since your purpose is quite obviously ego accentuation rather than discussion then I leave you to it , there are myriad other folks to discuss the subject with who don't find it necessary to act in the manner that you have.

 

[motaco]

There is a 6000 year gap between when people came across the Bering land bridge during the most recent ice age, and when the first agriculture began in America. 6000 years that they supposedly carried hemp seeds around, and leaving no evidence of it. Never mind that they crossed during an ice age and nothing grows in that region still to this day. So why were they carrying seeds they didn't eat for years and across thousands of miles of a climate where nothing grows?

What you are saying is HARE brained. Excuse the previous misspelling.

There is no evidence for it, and no body else saying it except you. And I'm guessing you are no archaeologist.

That is the last I have to say to you about it. I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Bluenote]

There is a 6000 year gap between when people came across the Bering land bridge during the most recent ice age, and when the first agriculture began in America. 6000 years that they supposedly carried hemp seeds around, and leaving no evidence of it. Never mind that they crossed during an ice age and nothing grows in that region still to this day. So why were they carrying seeds they didn't eat for years and across thousands of miles of a climate where nothing grows?

What you are saying is HARE brained. Excuse the previous misspelling.

There is no evidence for it, and no body else saying it except you. And I'm guessing you are no archaeologist.

That is the last I have to say to you about it. I'm putting you on ignore.

Yeah I just bet you're putting me on ignore. Since you are about to get exposed for knowing one HELL of a lot less about a specific subject that you have set yourself up as "expert" on than you *really* do know.


You like to yap about how others " should have learned that in grade school" , while in reality the problem is that YOU are still stuck on what YOU " learned in grade school" as regards the subject and have explored it no further. The usual compartmentalised and programmed acceptance of a force fed curriculum.

Apparently you're unaware that there are quite a few theories on the human diaspora , migration routes etc and how they relate to the development of trade , in locale economics , agriculture and the development of all 'em along with of course the development of individual variances in social dynamic.

We * could* have dicussed any and all of this on a rational level and how it affected cannabis and it's spread 'round the world.

You evidently had no wish for such a discussion , as evidenced above you merely wish to immediately be declared " right" , all the while making it obvious to folks who have *actually* given more than a cursory study of the available theories that that's ALL you have done , the cursory.

In addition you seemingly like to attribute statements to others that they didn't make , I advanced it as a possible scenario , one among several other possible routes.

YOU seized upon that single aspect of what I stated and proceeded to attempt to run your snake-bully act , problem is that you're not the only from down 'round the way and a lot of us who grew up around Moccasins really'tain't all that impressed with their hissing.


And that's ALL it was , a bunch of hissing since you of course addressing not a SINGLE point , and of course the mere existence of the Savanah site along with some evidence of early agriculture at said site rather blows your whole schtick.

Want to see the if and how , look to the origins of the indigenous peoples first , then ascertain whether it's indigenous to the areas they came from and what their social/tribal dynamic may have been.

Furthermore we also have zero way of ascertaining whether certain early trading cultures ever reached the real world or not , we actually still know little about many of the African Continent and other cultures that may conceivably reached the New World at some point.

As I pointed out previously , there are possibilities of varying age , I also pointed out that the Euro-distribution theory is almost certainly one avenue of distribution , however there are possibilities that predate that hypothesis.

Shouldn't we actually be discussing possible similarities between New World and Old World cultivars? If similarities exist it might well point towards a path of distribution and/or possible time frame.

 

[mofeta]

For all that's *actually* known this plant could have come across the Bering land bridge with the Asiatic tribes

While this statement is technically true, the probability of this is extremely low, for the reasons Motaco gave (pre-agricultural people probably don't carry seeds around with them). Of course, it is possible, but there is absolutely no evidence towards this theory.

could have arrived via polynesian wanderings that themselves are still open to debate , the possibility of early Chinese , Arab or African or Indain subcontinent traders wandering way off the beaten path is there too.

Or it could have spread via natural methods , bird eats seed , bird craps seed , seed grows , bird eats seed etc.et.c

This is a couple of orders of magnitude more possible than the possibility of the first Americans bringing the seed with them, but still very unlikely, and once again, there is zero evidence of this.

Yeah actually it IS open to debate still , prior to talking down to another individual you might wish to ascertain exactly where they're at in terms of knowledge , it might be rather obvious to you that I'm quite well aware of the literature on the subject , perhaps *you* may wish to take a look at how the term " hunter-gatherer" is applied and exactly how farming came about.

Are you saying that the peoples that first migrated to America were farmers, even in the loosest sense of the word? What evidence can you cite showing any farming before the Neolithic Revolution?

By the way , keep in mind that Albert Goodyear's discoveries along the Savanah River have set this whole thing on it's ear again anyhow , since of course they prove mans existence on this continent far prior to the last Ice Age and the " Clovis Period" , intrusion dates ( carbon dated) run as far back as almost 52k years at the Topper site , one in Okla is even older.

This is incorrect. Goodyear has not proven this. His evidence is of the most tenuous nature. I have experience in dating arch sites, including 14C. I also have experience in lithic analysis. My opinion is that the strata in question are as old as he says, but the "artifacts" are anything but proven as such. Al Goodyear is a real nice guy, and smart. He has helped show that the "Clovis First" hypothesis is most likely wrong. But he has NOT proven that man was at Topper >50K yr BP. Molecular genetics has shown us that if there were people there that long ago, they are not the ancestors of the the current indigenous population that came from Beringia. Analysis of various haplogroup subclades through both mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome studies prove this. All this aside, if there were tool-makers at Topper that long ago, hell, maybe they were Neanderthals or H. erctus even! Lake Chapala, Calico, Pedra Furada anyone? LOL!

Your point that none of this is settled is a good one.

The way you interacted with Motaco, though, in my opinion, was suboptimal to say the least. You could have chosen a different tack and explained the foundations of you position. All the ad hominem attacks are not education. You said: "Since your purpose is quite obviously ego accentuation..", what is your purpose? If it is education/civil discussion, you didn't achieve your goal.

I would like to point out that Savannah is spelled with two n, for folks that would like to Google it. Do I need to assure you that I am merely making a useful correction, or do you perceive it as an attack?

mofeta

 

[Raco]

Some seem to believe that cannabis originated in Africa and left the continent with the first migrations of humans towards Asia
Does this make sense? lol
I´ve enjoyed your posts folks...very good read indeed...please,keep it civil

 

[mofeta]

Shouldn't we actually be discussing possible similarities between New World and Old World cultivars? If similarities exist it might well point towards a path of distribution and/or possible time frame.

Yeah that is the ticket. Once we have genomes of enough individuals, statistical methods can be used to figure this out. If you are interested, here are a couple of good papers on the techniques to do so:

Population Structure and Eigenanalysis

Inference of Population Structure Using Multilocus Genotype Data: Linked Loci and Correlated Allele Frequencies

Here is the software:

Structure

 

[Bluenote]

.

The way you interacted with Motaco, though, in my opinion, was suboptimal to say the least. You could have chosen a different tack and explained the foundations of you position. All the ad hominem attacks are not education. You said: "Since your purpose is quite obviously ego accentuation..", what is your purpose? If it is education/civil discussion, you didn't achieve your goal.

I would like to point out that Savannah is spelled with two n, for folks that would like to Google it. Do I need to assure you that I am merely making a useful correction, or do you perceive it as an attack?

mofeta

Excuse me? Suboptimal? Mayhap you should go back and reread the genesis of this . I full understand that he's your good bud and all that but the REALITY is that I simply joined in the conversation and he then decided to play the badass and start with " you're stupid and uneducated" , which of course is quite far from the truth. When I THEN after that attempted to address him as an adult he completely blew past *EVERY* freaking salient point to continue in the same vein.

As for " spellin" di you perhaps MISS the damned point that your " good budi thar" was labeling other folks as inept and stupid whilst being unable to utililise a simple colloquialism.

And now here YOU come along , Johnny-come-lately after the fact telling me all about wht I did or didn't " accomplish" , to which I must query just what the hell YOU think you're accomplishing wiith what YOU are doing , what's your freaking point?

Quite obviously YOU don't wish to discuss the question either , quite obviously YOU too just wish to throw your weight around and tell folks whats what.

By the way , maybe YOU too should learn to read for context , you can SHOW us all where I postulated *anything whatsover* about the Bering Land Bridge theories except that it's ONE of several possible routes.

And you thoroughly and completely missed the reason Savanahhhhh is significant , that being the questions it raises about what we've previously accepted as " the truth".


As I stated , I merely joined a conversation , for that YES I was attacked , and YES YOU are doing exactly the same thing in an even smarmier manner simple because I refused to " submit" to your friend and dared to point out a couple of things to him.

And I joined the damn discussion in a CIVIL manner , so sove your criticisms in that regard for someone else .


Now run through this , I laft muny tepos fir yu ta fin en curect. Should make you ecstatic since ( as I already said) you obviously aren't interested in actually discussing the original subject on any level beyond " my buddy said it's so so then I know it's so so you should know so to so........."

 

[Bluenote]

Yeah that is the ticket. Once we have genomes of enough individuals, statistical methods can be used to figure this out. If you are interested, here are a couple of good papers on the techniques to do so:

Population Structure and Eigenanalysis

Inference of Population Structure Using Multilocus Genotype Data: Linked Loci and Correlated Allele Frequencies

Here is the software:

Structure

Too late...............I was actually interested before all the dickwaving and accusations of my saying crap that I hadn't stated.

I'll just keep my observations to myself , being so freaking uneducated , suboptimal , " should have learned that in grade school" , unable to spell and so general LESS than your august self or your buddy I'm thoroughly unworthy to ever even breathe the same air much less even THINK of participating in any sort of discussion.

After all there certainly isn't anybody else in the world with any interest or degree of knowledge on the subject , nobody else bothers to research it at all.

You and your bud just told me ALL about " how it is" , I mean why would I argue? Would I argue with God?

 

[mofeta]

Hey Bluenote

I don't know Motaco, I have never talked to him or posted in his thread. The only way I know of him is that I like to look at the pictures that people post in his sativa thread. I don't know that I've even read more than 5 of his posts since I came here in 2006.

I did not intend to belittle you, I'm sorry you took it that way.

Good luck

mofeta

 

[VirginHarvester]

I wonder if they can do strain DNA mapping to see if they can trace Colombians, Thais and other South American strains to their origin. Just curious.

As for the term Landrace, at what point does a strain become landrace? I feel like once they've been around hundreds of years and adapted they are in effect Landrace to that region.

Brazil is supposed to have some really good strains. It seems like some of the famous "landrace" regions have integrated indicas with their landrace to reduce flower time.

 

[guest121295]

Exactly!! At what point does a strain become a landrace and not an import? When it begins to cultivate itself and make natural unassisted adjustments to climate? So perhaps if a group of plants has reached past civilization for several hundred years its landrace....Much of human migration can be easily theorized by examining the oceans currents.If you throw a log in the water in NW Canada it ends up in Hawaii, it may even reach NZ.

 

[mofeta]

Now run through this , I laft muny tepos fir yu ta fin en curect. Should make you ecstatic

Read what I wrote again.

I would like to point out that Savannah is spelled with two n, for folks that would like to Google it.

mofeta

As the Savannah site is one of the more interesting arch sites in the world, I was hoping some people would learn more on their own. I thought it would be useful to provide the correct term for them to Google, as you misspelled it both times you mentioned it.

 

[mofeta]

I wonder if they can do strain DNA mapping to see if they can trace Colombians, Thais and other South American strains to their origin. Just curious.

Yeah that's what my post above is about.

As for the term Landrace, at what point does a strain become landrace? I feel like once they've been around hundreds of years and adapted they are in effect Landrace to that region.

That's a good question. The term landrace is misused on the boards all the time. Sometimes people use the term correctly, but usually not. People think it is the same as "heirloom", but it isn't.

The difference between the two is how diverse they are, or conversely, how inbred they are.

landrace = HUGE populations, hetrogenous, genetically diverse, stable (balanced/in equilibrium) developed through mass selection, and therefore acclimated or adapted to the environmental conditions of the particular geographical location, but not actively bred (or more accurately, bred, but at the simplest level, natural pressures more important). Landraces have the ability to deal with changes in environment very well because of the diversity.

heirloom = derived from landraces, developed through selective pressure and inbreeding, more homogenous, less genetically diverse, open pollinated but selected for certain traits, actively bred . Less able to deal with changes in environment. "bottlenecked"

Landraces are hugely valuable because they are libraries of genetic material. It is hard to maintain them in illegal crops though, because of the number of individuals that must be maintained.

 

[mofeta]

Exactly!! At what point does a strain become a landrace and not an import?

It is all about the diversity of the genetic material in the population, and whether it is at equilibrium with the environment for a certain geographical location.

When it begins to cultivate itself and make natural unassisted adjustments to climate? So perhaps if a group of plants has reached past civilization for several hundred years its landrace....

Yeah feral populations can become landraces. With annuals it takes a lot less than hundreds of years. You can collect feral landrace cereal grains (wheat, rye etc.) in uncultivated lands in and around big cereal farming areas (fallow fields, ditches, etc.).

 

[mofeta]

Man this thread keeps spawning interesting topics!

I would like to discuss this whole landrace/heirloom/ibl/hybrid topic, but it is deserving of its own thread. When I have time later, I'll make a new thread in the breeding subforum and put a link to it here.

 

[motaco]

Yes that might be a good idea. I have to admit I use the term land race improperly all the time. I've never used the term heirloom but it makes perfect sense.

I always called things IBL when they were a worked and stable strain and landrace if it was a strain from bagseed in the 60s and kept up to current times. Though clearly that would technically be an heirloom variety.

 

[guest121295]

I just figure that cannabis being so ubiquitous and occaisionally so successfull outside of mans hands( drive through Nebraska around Sept!) that at some point in some mysterious or even not so mysterious valley, lowland etc a population of plants with no help from man excepting the introduction of some plants that went to seed and were never recovered, abandoned etc that there exist populations of crazy un manned cannabis.Is the midwest hemp a landrace yet?I've seen that stuff 10 ft tall and more with a million seeds in a spot where the corn farmer drove his harvester around it. Its always been curious to me that people say landrace Columbians etc assuming the whole time that no cannabis existed in SA before the Spanish.we do still wonder about the many pre-incan cultures, the Tiki culture whose origins may be North African.I imagine, and we do know that SA was populated by white people with long beards who pre dated the Incas and escaped after they were beaten and chased off by the Incan culture.It is of course very possible that the planet has been inhabited in ways we'll never know as time has washed all traces of their existence.Right? Sorry, the topic is of particular interest to me, I'm not just a weed geek!

 

[señorsloth]

can anything become landrace? i thought a landrace strain was one that evolved in the area, and though may be composed of several "strains", they can all be grouped together by the region that they evolved...for instance there are dozens of kinds of hindu kush type plants that are "landrace" in the Himalayan... sure you could call all the different naturally evolving strains in the hindu kush mountains "hindu kush landrace" and you would be correct, but you could also be correct in calling one of those strains a "chinees landrace" or an "indian landrace" even though it could theoretically all be one strain...much the same way 2 people could be midwesterners, but not both be north dakotans...

i guess what i'm trying to say is that i don't see landrace strains as official strains, because they are named after the area they are found and they represent huge populations of wild plants, often widely varied...to say a plant is an indian landrace strain means nothing at all...since there are so many different kinds of Indian landraces, depending on what region of india you found it in, so by calling it Indian landrace, you are not necessarily referencing any specific traits... furthermore the strain name of a population can change constantly depending on who is referencing the strain and area, and how specific they want to be, like saying it was a land race strain from this mountain range, is different than if you were to narrow it down to a landrace strain from that mountain range, but in a certain valley of that range...

so no,imo, because hemp didn't evolve, and had to be bred to have almost no thc, then moved to the midwest by man, it's not a landrace...sure it's homogenized...almost every hemp plant in my area looks the same, and sure it's been acclimated...but it didn't evolve here, and our continent had almost nothing to do with it's evolution at this point, millions of generations evolving in asia trumps the 100 or so generations living here...id say the midwest has contributed very little to the manmade hemp strains...and i wouldn't think to consider them land race american strains