SOLAR POWER

[HempKat]

The power company had a lot of control over our job, but they don't have control of our power usage or how much we're sending back into the grid. However, neither do we expect to actually receive a check from them--this *is* PG&E we're talking about in this specific instance, after all.

We decided against battery banks because of the total sum "pain in the ass" factor. It's huge. We'd have to dedicate a significant portion of our property just to the batteries, weight, environmental issues, initial cost and replacement costs all made them not feasible for the package we went with or our real needs. I mean, I truly detest PG&E as a whole, but not so much that I had to insist we completely cut the teat.

Bolded, both bear repeating. We investigated wind, but that would have required an initial capital outlay we couldn't bear, and we're in a bit of a valley that doesn't normally have sufficient wind speeds for good power generation. Not to mention that there are rather significant set-backs required that would have severely limited the sizing possibilities for wind power generation. AND, we would have had to cut down a lot more trees, didn't have to cut any for the solar but if we do take down two pines, one directly east of the house and the other directly west, we would increase efficiency. I'm not ready to cut down more old trees just yet.

Caring for our now-5yo roof was but one of the big questions we had for the companies handling our installation. There is a better chance that we'll need to replace the roof before the panels (which means the installation company gets work from us again in future).

Lost, perhaps our musings might be better for a thread of their own? I happen to know someone who's a paleoclimatologist and he's been working on building a data set that will add to the body of science that demonstrates that, outside natural decadal climate shifts, what we're experiencing very well may be rooted in human industrial activity. He's using coral heads around the world, began in Florida, added to the set with some Caribbean samples, and last year received funding approval for study in Vanuatu and the Oceania region.

Anyway, there are many factors that add to climate variables, and so that leads to much debate. Where I think we would find common ground is the idea that the overall, total mean sum of human impact, irrespective of whether we're discussing private citizens or large corporations (which is yet another debate for me, that could become very political), whether via causing climate shift or other activities, is significant. I mean, it can be seen from space, ya know?

On the subject of climate change and greenhouse gases I find it kind of amusing (and kind of not) that people are so insistent on their view being correct. I mean here you two seem to be arguing over whether it's caused by people or industries when that's really one and the same. Then there is also the popular view that it could all be natural and therefore uncontrollable by man. Regardless of who causes climate change what matters is that it exists and we have to find a way to exist along with it. Not only that but also in changing how we interact with the environment we also change other pollution issues (hopefully for the better). Pollution that we know for a fact is altering life on this planet on a genetic level.

 

[BrnCow]

Most people are not aware that a single oil refinery can blow out a billion pounds of tainted air a day. It may only have a few percent of a chemical like poly propylene gas used in plastic manufacturing or benzene but considering the amount of air they pump out, it is a considerable amount. The idea that granny spraying her pits with Right Guard is causing a global problem is bullshit. Of course, nationwide we might pump out an amount, these refineries and other big businesses are the culprits. And as much money as they have made jacking up the fuel prices, they appear to be able to afford to get the best scrubbers and cleaning apparatus available to mankind. Cheapskating by corporations causes the problems in my opinion at this time...

 

[HempKat]

Most people are not aware that a single oil refinery can blow out a billion pounds of tainted air a day. It may only have a few percent of a chemical like poly propylene gas used in plastic manufacturing or benzene but considering the amount of air they pump out, it is a considerable amount. The idea that granny spraying her pits with Right Guard is causing a global problem is bullshit. Of course, nationwide we might pump out an amount, these refineries and other big businesses are the culprits. And as much money as they have made jacking up the fuel prices, they appear to be able to afford to get the best scrubbers and cleaning apparatus available to mankind. Cheapskating by corporations causes the problems in my opinion at this time...

It's still people though and so whether it's granny or the factory down the street doesn't matter. I mean all that discussion decides is where the finger of blame needs to be pointed, the finger of blame does nothing to fix the problem and really just how blameless is Granny? I mean what if the factory down the road is putting that stuff in the air while manufacturing cans of Right Guard?

 

[MtnLivin]

You gu7ys know that a Volcano erupting emits more Co2 than any industry ever has, right?

 

[lost in a sea]

hempcat you cant fix the problem unless you know what it is for one thing,,

also my point was supposed to be productive,, and yours isnt,,

your pointing the blame at us for discussing where blame lies,, therefore adding a third level of pointlessness to the conversation,,

ill tell you now that i go out my front door every day to do something productive and it isnt putting solar panels on my house and just being happy that im doing something,,

also no one on the ground (including granny) asked for the bullshit we have been put through,, you dont live in a democracy for exactly the same reason big business pollutes so much,, because we arent in control of who runs our countries,,

who drained california and ruined one of the worlds biggest wildbird marshland habitats ?

the answer is the industrialists the same people that destroyed the water table here in the uk,, who cuts down all the trees ? who allowed the world to be overpopulated the way it is ?

i dont blame the people i blame the feckless, manipulative and feudalist rule of the same corporations that have been raping your and my ancestors since they got their charter to exist and steal for the crown,,

i think its ignorance to blame people for their ignorance,,

you have to educate,, but there is a load of bullshit and lies in the way as always,,

money talks in this shit world,, and the people that talk the most also pollute the most,,

 

[lost in a sea]

You gu7ys know that a Volcano erupting emits more Co2 than any industry ever has, right?

exactly co2 is irrelevent,, thats what i keep saying,, causing <2% of trapped heat,,

however it may well be acidifying the oceans slightly which will damage corals for one thing,,

its the pollutants from industry that is the problem for nature,,

its had many many millions of years to deal with co2 fluctuations and life is more than happy for the levels to rise,,

and granny doesnt churn out solvents and carcinogenic agents into nature does she ?

oh and plastic oestragen antagonists that fuck up sexual dimorphism,, which is in all our drinking water,, that as well as all the women on the pill pissing it out,,

 

[HempKat]

You gu7ys know that a Volcano erupting emits more Co2 than any industry ever has, right?

You know that companies emit far more pollutents then just CO2 right? Also factories emit what they emit daily, volcanos erupt sparratically.

 

[lost in a sea]

doesnt matter, in terms of co2, global volcanism dwarfs what is kicked out by humans,,

so yeah factories produce the pollutants not humans on the ground,,

we have just bought into a system that tells us we need these corporations doing what they are doing,, but we dont,,

is the answer to get them to change their ways ? or ignore them and build a better world on our own,,, id go for the latter because i know if you give them a chance they will take the piss over and over again,,

that is what being an elite is all about,,, making people sick and getting away with it,, just look at history,,

 

[SeaMaiden]

Lost, I've been refusing HRT for years, even though it can relieve me of many annoyances, because I now know that it affects other organisms around me.

On the subject of climate change and greenhouse gases I find it kind of amusing (and kind of not) that people are so insistent on their view being correct. I mean here you two seem to be arguing over whether it's caused by people or industries when that's really one and the same. Then there is also the popular view that it could all be natural and therefore uncontrollable by man. Regardless of who causes climate change what matters is that it exists and we have to find a way to exist along with it. Not only that but also in changing how we interact with the environment we also change other pollution issues (hopefully for the better). Pollution that we know for a fact is altering life on this planet on a genetic level.

I'm saying industry = people and people = industry. Can't have one without the other.

And, I agree, there's a total sum of issues to be dealt with, and each and every one of us has our own sphere of influence. Yours may be larger than mine, may affect more people and/or organisms, whatever, than mine, or vice versa. I'm mostly doing my best to take responsibility, and action, for the effects I create, and maybe save some much needed money while I'm at it.

 

[lost in a sea]

like i said im glad you care,,

the industry never needed to be so destructive,, that was part of taming nature,,

the people never wanted the pollutants that come with industry,,

so who's to blame,,, of course its everyone, but mostly the bastards that knew how much damage they would cause and did it anyway,,

im sorry if it appears like im attacking you im not,,

hempkat i couldnt agree more,, i see where you guys are coming from,, sorry for being awkward as well,,

 

[HempKat]

hempcat you cant fix the problem unless you know what it is for one thing,,

also my point was supposed to be productive,, and yours isnt,,

your pointing the blame at us for discussing where blame lies,, therefore adding a third level of pointlessness to the conversation,,

ill tell you now that i go out my front door every day to do something productive and it isnt putting solar panels on my house and just being happy that im doing something,,

also no one on the ground (including granny) asked for the bullshit we have been put through,, you dont live in a democracy for exactly the same reason big business pollutes so much,, because we arent in control of who runs our countries,,

who drained california and ruined one of the worlds biggest wildbird marshland habitats ?

the answer is the industrialists the same people that destroyed the water table here in the uk,, who cuts down all the trees ? who allowed the world to be overpopulated the way it is ?

i dont blame the people i blame the feckless, manipulative and feudalist rule of the same corporations that have been raping your and my ancestors since they got their charter to exist and steal for the crown,,

i think its ignorance to blame people for their ignorance,,

you have to educate,, but there is a load of bullshit and lies in the way as always,,

money talks in this shit world,, and the people that talk the most also pollute the most,,

My point is that companies are people. You speak of them as if they are some other entity not related to people. They exist because people want what they make and they've gotten to the point of destruction they have to the environment because people didn't watch over them and make sure they didn't do as much harm as they did/do. Now we've gotten to the point that we are so used to the way of life these industries provide that nobody wants to face the changes needed on an individual level to turn things around. It's far easier to blame something/someone else then to do anything about it.

My point also is that global warming or not there is alot of other harm these companies are causing so even if global warming is proven to be the big fraud many would like to claim it is there's still plenty of reasons to get these industries under control. You doing the kind of work you claim to do should see plenty of evidence of this and be more in agreement with me then you appear to be.

I'm not making the point that Granny switching deoderants is going to stop global warming. What Granny switching deoderants will do though is cause the manufacturer to make less profit. If enough Grannies do that then the company either changes their product line or they die. If the change is for a more environmentally friendly product then whether they change or die what Granny did played a roll in improving the environment.

Same with Solar power. I seriously doubt with the kind of income disparity we have in this country that enough people will be able to embrace solar to make a direct difference in and of themselves but if enough people start doing things different instead of just saying "Well volcanos do worse so why bother" then maybe, just maybe we might turn things around although probably not in the lifetime of anyone alive on the planet today.

Also what if after all the studies and research is done it turns out ignorance was the cause? That we did things not fully understanding or being aware of the risks as has proven to be the case with many things in people's lives. You say it's important to determin the blame but then say you can't blame people for their ignorance. Yet the best most likely answer for these evils is that people did/do and will like continue to do things in ignorance focusing mostly on the immediate short term benefits with little to no thought for the long term consequences.

 

[MtnLivin]

You know, there is a company in So Cal that will install solar FREE of charge, not a penny to you, other than you making a payment monthly to them that is half the cost that your electric bill would normally be? Growing by the minute too...

 

[lost in a sea]

my problem is that many of the studies done in recent years have been contrived and im non biased as a "scientist" is supposed to be so that worries me if im honest,,

on closer inspection i dont trust alot of the researchers and i dont trust the institutions funding their research into climate change for the most part,, its a big mess,,

people are generally ignorant of what they are living in because of poor education and a society that doesnt value anything positive and productive, but the powers that be arent ignorant at all,,

i cant blame average people for what has been done to them physically and kept from them mentally,, even if part of it is their own fault because they havent naturally ended up where they are through their own actions,,

yes get them under control if you believe it is possible,, yes every small action helps,,

 

[HempKat]

my problem is that many of the studies done in recent years have been contrived and im non biased as a "scientist" is supposed to be so that worries me if im honest,,

on closer inspection i dont trust alot of the researchers and i dont trust the institutions funding their research into climate change for the most part,, its a big mess,,

people are generally ignorant of what they are living in because of poor education and a society that doesnt value anything positive and productive, but the powers that be arent ignorant at all,,

i cant blame average people for what has been done to them physically and kept from them mentally,, even if part of it is their own fault because they havent naturally ended up where they are through their own actions,,

yes get them under control if you believe it is possible,, yes every small action helps,,

The general populous isn't as ignorant as you think, IMO. I mean I remember when all this sort of environmental stuff was big news in the 70's and the topic appeared in mainstream media in many forms. I mean it wasn't just in the news but also in things like movies and I'm sure song although no specific songs come to mind. I do recall one movie example though, it was a Steven Seagal movie called "On Deadly Ground" not only was the plot of the movie centered around how big corporations damage the environment but also there was a powerful speech at the end that took it further then the action of the movie. Point being that a wide variety of people have heard about these abuses and are aware of them thru a wide variety of sources. Yet little to nothing gets done because what people find is it's not a quick easy simple fix that requires little to no sacrifice.

Gas Prices and fuel efficiency is a great example. A couple years back when gas prices hit $4 per gallon in the US people suddenly got tired of gas guzzling vehicles and started shopping for more fuel efficiency. There were ads on tv and radio at the time encouraging people to sell their big gas guzzling vehicles before they became too worthless, and buy the newer more fuel efficient vehicles. Then prices for gas went down and suddenly the big gas guzzlers were back on the road (they never really left people just drove them less often). Also the dealers encouraging you to get rid of the gas guzzlers before they lost value were now selling them again and one was even giving away an upgrade to a hemi V8 as an enticement for people to buy. What really baffled me though was in the rush for everyone to become more fuel efficient everyone was talking about how 40MPG was great and about the best one could expect to get even out of the hybrids (give or take a few MPG) yet when I was a courier in the late 80's early 90's I remember there being cars out then that were getting 60MPG but now 20+ years later 40MPG is the best? Not only that but the manufacturers need years to be able to raise the efficiency? I'm calling bullshit on that one.

What I'm getting at in all this is these things happen because nobody really wants to give up the comfort, the ease, the status, the convenience, etc. that all this stuff provides so that people in the future can have as clean or cleaner earth then we have. I mean sure a few well intentioned people here and there do but the vast majority don't and it's not because they don't know. We know manufacturers in China use things we forbid such as lead paint and do things in ways we deem unethical and unsafe yet we keep buying from them because we like the price. I mean with all that has gone on in the past few years China should have taken a huge hit in production and there should have been a huge resurgance in America to buy "Made In The USA" but there wasn't because that's more expensive and people would have to give some things up.

Sure somebody living in a remote area without access to media and good education might be ignorant but for most people these are choices they make. Further most people make those choices because they have this attitude of "Why should I change? Volcanos create more CO2 then I do" or "Why should I change if China is going to keep doing things the way it does?" or any one of a number of other rationals people use to justify why they should keep doing things they know they shouldn't do or keep buying from companies who don't do all they can to lessen their impact on the environment.

I do agree that many of the studies are questionable and/or laughable when you analyze how they came to their conclusions and you can usually figure out why when you follow the money for the research back to it's source. It's unfortunate that science's integrity has become so compromised due to a reliance on outside funding

 

[Nor'Easter]

the question is the viability of solar power for different people in different areas right?

 

[HempKat]

the question is the viability of solar power for different people in different areas right?

Actually the question was how might one go about going solar in an affordable manner even to the point of the OP being willing to consider DIY. Of course after 2-3 pages of answers that had some comments from people about why they've gone solar or why they want to, that of course led into global warming and polluting the environment.

There was some debate on viability but the people saying it wasn't viable seemed to be basing opinions on Jimmy Carter Era technology. Then someone claiming to work in the solar industry corrected a number of misconceptions that were floated and that seemed to end the discussion of viabilty. Although everyone seems to be in agreement that storing the energy created on site in deep cycle batteries creates alot of issues that not everyone could or would want to deal with.

 

[Galactic]

Great thread! Lots of good info and some pure speculation as well. Definitely don't forget to do your research the same like we are all here on this canna site.

On an unrelated note, and my most humble opinion... Alternative energy is just fuckin ridiculous. As stated by other well-informed posters, in its current state its a negative sum game. Know why the world uses oil? Because it's the cheapest form of available energy.

Green energy sounds all kumbahyah on the surface like legalized cannabis. Wake up. Subsidies going straight to the supporters of your very politicians.
We are widening the gap between the upper and lower classes under the guise of "going green" 5 bedroom new build and 30yr for solar? You don't actually think our country has that money do you?
We already have a hard enough time in this welfare state of ours. My tax dollars have argueably already been arguably, but since we continue to increase the money supply, let not continue the squandering.

 

[dddaver]

Interesting thread for the first few pages. Then like most good ones, hijacked by arguing, off-topic, "I'm right, and I'M the ONLY one who is right, dammit" mofos arguing. My scrolling wheel and index finger sure got a workout the last few pages.

Back at the ranch, how much is a one (or more) panel(s) to heat your hot water, on average?

 

[Aeroguerilla]

Im currently setting up my home up off the grid with solar power/battery bank and gen for backup just incase. To run my "normal electricity" including my 600w light for veg and clones its going to cost me roughly 13k just for the outback computer system and battery bank plus installation. Then i need the panels!! ima go sanyo hitpanels 220w a piece probably 2 arrays of 12 panels. so 24 220w panels, outback got the new radiant series 8kw inverter/charger Up to 10 units can be connected in parallel for systems up to 80kW continuous power output.

so if you wanted to setup and offgrid grow you could but it would be VERY VERY expensive once you buy yourself 10x inverters/charge controllers and then x amount of 1600AH forklift batteries that are about 4-5k a piece its a big investment to grow off the grid. My first goal is to have the home powered 100% + my 1 600w MH for veg and clones. Im thinking i should be able to do this for right around 30k installed. I really dont care how much its going to be its the fact that i will be creating my own energy instead of feeding off the grid! Homegrown veggies, free energy all i need is a electric car now charge it up for free

 

[BrnCow]

Sidetracked myself again...okay...so the most profitable solar addition in my opinion would be the solar hot water deal - especially if you are a plumber to some degree. The other is the solar heating where you heat a box and pump it into your home with a solar fan. The electric stuff doesn't seem costs effective yet but if the grid crashed, it would be a real nice thing to have. Of course, in the case of an EMT bomb, I'm not sure how it would hold up. Being a long way from the source might help a lot. If a person could run enough solar to cover a battery system just for the greenhouse, it would make sense on several fronts including power usage. Might be worth the expense - especially if the panels were out of sight in certain cases...