Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Macola]

OK, two questions.

Is OSRAM's powerball equivalent to Philips's MasterColor Retro White ?

It says "Metal halide lamps with ceramic technology" so I think it's the same thing but I would just like to be sure.

#2. Any dis(advantages) of using single or double ended version ? I

Powerball
Light @ lamp spec

 

[Azeotrope]

Alex - You are welcome. Good luck!

Macola - My advice is to look at each bulb for ballast specs/requirements as a minimum. Regarding spectrum...... I would suspect that they are very similar in a 4k bulb, however, if I recall from my research they tend to rate their color temp similar to GE and others do sometimes. I.e. 830 would be a 3k color temp like in that link you have there...... They may list it specifically as 3k, 4k or whatever.

Sylvania is a high quality manufacturer so if you can find their 4k go for it. GE as well. More and more cmh options are popping up.

 

[Azeotrope]

Hey folks, I know that there has been a lot of interest in running the 400w CMH on an electronic ballast. YOU CAN NOT use a standard electronic for these bulbs, however, the G.E. UltraMax runs at 70hz square wave and will do it safely...... This has been pointed out before, I know. While looking for a less expensive option here is a china made that I found that runs at 130hz square wave and will do it just right with the CDM/CMH bulbs in 400w.
http://mefine.en.made-in-china.com/...onic-Ballast-for-400W-Metal-Halide-Lamps.html

I sent them a request to find out if they can refer me to a retailer that they supply or if they will sell me just one or two....... Also noted that although I HATE Advanced Nutrients as they are rip off artists....... Their Baddass (LOL) ballast line is the correct output of square wave and low frequency (100hz) Probably a very good choice for all bulbs. The only problem is they don't have a 400w......... As a matter of fact, AN is correct on the tech this time. Square wave lower freq is the best way to go for all bulbs. I would like to have the 600w (not released yet) to try the 400 cmh with on the 450w setting (carefully and with correct protective gear on lol).

Just some food for thought. Also, Philips is putting out the MasterColor Elite 315w with a digital (notice I say digital?). Very good output and the bulb type/design that spurr was metioning in a thread recently.

Have fun out there and stay safe!

Edit: I can't stand made in china stuff everywhere, but these just aren't made in other places. Metrolight and a few others make lower wattages for cdm/cmh but all the electronic and digitals in higher wattage are china made.

 

[rives]

Hey Azeotrope (or anyone with information), I am interested in building a permanent replacement for my DR120II, and would like to use CMH lamps in this application. The space that I have available is roughly 30" x 60" x 9-1/2', and I am planning on treating it as (2) 30" x 30" spaces with a lamp over each. At this point I am leaning toward either the PL Deep hoods with air-cooled shrouds, or the Bell Lighting LR 400 MV. Do you have any experience with these hoods or other suggestions? I know the Super Sun II is supposed to be the hot rod air-cooled hood, but the way the air ducts come out makes it too wide for this application.

Thanks.

 

[Phaeton]

Azeotrope: I bit the bullet and ordered the GE Ultramax (on B/O, must be popular), my veg room is 4000K Philips CMH.
Back to back tests against the 4000K Sunpulse high frequency came out even for growth.
The sunpulse has an annoying arc motion, that gave the win to CMH, the low freq digital can only make it better.

I don't expect to eyeball a visible difference, but I have a quantum meter that does not lie, side by side here I come.

 

[Azeotrope]

rives - Still in awe of your awesome DIY on the LED/Pl-l combo!!! Regarding the PL hoods, I have not used the air cooled version but I have a PL Midi that I am using with a 250w and sometimes I throw in the 400w and switch ballasts. They make a very high quality product. I actually am in a 22" x 28" and so I actually took some specular sheet from a very nice bat wing and made it deeper. Came out clean and gave me a really penatrating - spot light "beam" that matches my foot print. I gave my other PL Midi to a fellow hobbiest and it is used with a 400w CMH in a 3 x 3 tent with great results. My Metrolight digital 150w ballast is in that tent as well with a vertical 150w 3k philips cmh and that whole set-up is killing it for personal medical needs. PL makes great stuff. I actually both for $20 each when they were ordered and never picked up by someone and my shop owning friend had them sitting for a year..... Good Luck!

Phaeton - Cool deal on that UltraMax. Even the 144hz square wave that MetroLight uses can cause a little "roll" in the tube from one bulb to the next..... The G.E. you have runs at 70hz square and that is ideal. I believe that up to about 166hz and a good digitally controlled square wave form is about spot. 60hz to 166hz and square will run every bulb out there pretty much.

The thing about a "rolling" or smooth\standard sign wave is that the voltage is doing just that, rolling up and down. The cheapo or common e-ballasts that most are using for horticulture are using just amplify or increase the frequency (hz) and they are not well tuned. By doing this, they excite the metals and gases in the arc tube of nearly any bulb and can overdrive output. But, as the sign wave rolls, so does the condition of the arc and that can cause internal load fluctuations within the arc tube. This causes overheating, resonance and electrode deterioration.

The arc is better maintained at optimum operating voltage. The same with motors and torque curve maintenance. That is what the square wave form does. It feeds optimum voltage at digitally controlled intervals. I install and service a lot of Variable Frequency Drives and their output (and design/theory/function) is very similar to the best low frequency ballasts. As a matter of fact, I'd bet that I can take a small VFD and run these bulbs.........

Let us know how that G.E. does.

Regards, Azeotrope

 

[rives]

Azeotrope - Thanks for both the comments on my fixture and the information on PL. It sounds like your giant Mag light should be able to blister paint! Do you find that the PL hoods can be run at a greater distance from the plants? It seems as though their claims to that effect should be accurate considering the similarity between those hoods and the cobra-style streetlight reflectors.

I think that you may be right on the VFD's - I've been considering the same thing. The Teco FM-50s are only about $100 for a 1/4 hp drive, but I don't know how broad the instruction set is for a sub-micro drive like that. The big Saftronics drives that I used to use gave access to an incredible range of parameters, but that would be like using an H-bomb for a flyswatter. 3-phase output for $100.....it bears more thought!

 

[Azeotrope]

rives - The PL fixtures are very well designed and do throw a very concentrated beam as per their design and claims. You can mount them a bit higher, but the fact that light starts to diffuse some and blue is not as penetrating is all I would consider...... My thought on the VFDs is that wattage or power applied would have to be controlled. They are different in that they allow us to control the sign wave (as I'm sure you know) and control the frequency, but striking or soft starting the tube and hoping that the arc tube would be self limiting are where I start to think..... I use a lot of Control Techniques, DanFoss and some SafeTronics ( the occassional Frick) and thinking about it have done a lot of field development work for one of those groups on large compressors and evap towers, the drive has a allowable load that we can work under and as the motor operates against a load at a given frequency we can measure and even predict load fairly well. I just wonder what that load variant (in terms of real operating wattage or amperes) would be with the lamp? Would that varry as we run the hz up or down or would it just pull 400w if we ran it at 60 - 166hz square???

My thinking is that we would have to limit the output to match the bulb rating by setting the maximum load amperage to match the bulb's rating in watts.... Just simple math. Then we could play with the hz and with the Control Techniques, even the sign wave structure a little. Some will let us go a little "quazi square wave" or trapezoidal if desired. I haven't looked specifically, but I do think that they make single phase drives in smaller sizes. The last variable then is output voltage. That would mean we would take a drive (and supply of course) rated for equal to or higher than the bulbs arc tube requires as it varies form bulb to bulb and we would set the motor (bulb in this case) voltage parameter as needed. Then what about the v/hz relationship? We know a motor does well at around 7.6v/hz without running dynamic v to f looping (open or closed) and some don't do well if we move off of that 7.6 even with dynamic control. Some (many) that I use are designed for dynamic. So, would the voltage run over acceptable as we take the drive past 60hz? Haven't run any motors over 60hz in a while..... I suppose it would top out at the maximum rated voltage that we set and then just run the hz up......

Man, I have got to try this...... Time to start tinkering.

Take care !

 

[Azeotrope]

http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-174475/

They make them.... Noe to find one wholesale and at a lower cost......

 

[rives]

http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.13/.f

This is the little fellow I was talking about. It looks like it has a handful of pre-programmed v/f curves, don't know if one would be compatible or not. Ramp up can be a minimum of .1 second. I wonder if the current limit parameter is wide open, or fixed within a given range. It used to be a lot more fun when I could experiment with other people's money!

 

[Azeotrope]

Excellent. Looks like that would do it. After another day of thought, my biggest question still remaining is striking the bulb or if we can just do a fast ramp and nail it that way???? BTW - The G.E. Chromafit 250w has a lamp/tube voltage of 100v and the 400w needs torun around 95v so I am seriously considering buying a 120v model soon rated to about 5-6amps and having some fun.....

Edit: They all seem to be 3phase output which is correct and normal, but the bulb is a single phase load.... So, what about 2 bulbs in parallel sharing center leg of output...... May be a tough load ballance.... More research to be done!

 

[rives]

I was thinking more of 3 lamps so that it would see a 3-phase load. I've been going to try (2) 400's - perhaps (3) 250's might be in order. It would be a nice, economical way to get multi-point lighting.

 

[Azeotrope]

Sounds very cool..... Probably the way to do it. Man, I hate it when my wheels get spinning like this. Never have the budget for it. Like you said playing with other's funds is great. Just doesn't allow for playing with that which entertains me the most!

 

[Azeotrope]

For any of you that have either a standard M58 (probe) start 250w or pulse start 250w metal halide ballast, here is a great deal on a CMH bulb that at 205w will provide very good results at a low kw draw. Can't beat this deal. Stumbled on them while poking around.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/205-Watt-Ce...826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab2cfdcca

Edit: The seller also has a 3 bulb deal I saw for just under $24.00 us dollars

Take it easy

 

[Azeotrope]

Just wanted you all to know that while discussing the G.E. UltrMax ballasts with Hydro-Tech NW, they mentioned that these ballasts run the GE CMH really well (they're designed for that), but that the Philips has caused ballast failure and suffered bulb failure too frequently with this ballast. They no longer recommend the Philips CMH RetroWhite with the G.E. UltraMax ballast. They really recommend good old mag ballasts for the Philips Retro Whites. The non-retrofit CMH are apparently a better match when it comes to Philips and the UltraMax.

 

[fatman41]

400w coverage 2'x2' or more?

400w coverage 2'x2' or more?

400w coverage what kind of coverage can i expect from a 400watt cmh? I've read through this and havnt come up with an answere.
im looking for a descent idea so i can get started on my homemade hood.will it handle 3'x3' or is that to much of a stretch"my uneducated guess would be more like 2'x2'

 

[Azeotrope]

3x3 is not a problem for the 400w at all. The correct hood/reflector is every bit as critical as anything else. Good luck and happy growing! Glad to have you aboard at IC!

 

[fatman41]

thanks for the quick reply..out of curiosity what would max be for a 400 and still produce?

 

[Azeotrope]

I wouldn't do much more than 3x3. I have seen 8oz in 3x3 onder the philips 4k without too much effort, but really, you need to have everything else dialed. 3/4g er watt is not unreasonable in 3x3 under that light. Lighting is important and critical, but temp, nutes and genetics.

I used to get 1.5lb+ with 2 - 400w and 1 250w in a 4x6 area with little effort and I was a lazy grower! The cmh can yield and when I really paid attention and paid attention the NL#5 X Haze would crank out under them.

 

[Anti]

I got about seventeen oz from two 400w CMH in a 2.5 ft by 6 ft space my first time out. Setting up drip feeds for second run now with expectations to smash first round totals.