Fire safety for electrical equipment like HID and LED!

[spurr]

Hi all,

I thought I would post this here. I wrote this post for a journal entry about LEDs and how they are 'safer' than HID for fire hazards (which isn't a correct statement BTW, it's all about the details...).

From the journal entry "The unmentioned benefit of LEDs... " ( https://www.icmag.com/modules/Journal/viewentry.php?journalid=909 )

Skyver wrote:

So Spurr, would you recommend using flouros instead? I mean as in for safety over HPS when on holiday?

Spurr wrote:

I would suggest sound electrical safety procedures with HID while on vacation. The same suggestion applies for HID and LED, because if LED cooling fans fail LEDs can catch fire too. The issue with fires is equipment failure and circuit overloads, not just with HID...

Ex. use a high temp shutoff relay for the HID or LED, heavy gauge surge protectors, proper (grounded) wiring set to at least 15 amp breaker (20 amp is better), and *do not* max-out or overload the circuit! Use heavy gauge, and as short as possible, extension cords; and *only* use UL (Underwriters Laboratories) listed products and HID ballasts (if possible). Also, *only* use "GFCI" outlets for HID, replace any other outlet, even the normal non-GFCI grounded outlets.

Having one circuit per HID is a good idea, ex., a 20 amp circuit just for a 1,000 watt, or two 600watt, etc. Then put other electrical equipment on a different circuit.

Make sure to *not* exceed 80% of the max amperage load for the circuit breaker.

To find out how much electricity will be used by an HID do the following, this will allow a grower to know if they are maxing-out, or overloading the circuit:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-safety/fire/outlet-overload.htm

"So how do you find out how much [electricity on a single circuit] is too much? Actually, it's pretty easy. To determine how much electricity you're using with all of those holiday decorations, you just need to do a little math. The formula looks like this:

p/e=i (wattage divided by volts equals amps)

Say you're using 2,000 watts of power with your holiday lights and other decorations. You divide that number by the volts in your house (usually 120) and you come up with 16.6 amps of current that you're using. With a 20 amp electrical outlet, you're using around 80 percent of the available current, which is the most you should be using per circuit."

I follow those rules like they were the golden rule, and I have never had issues. YMMV. Good luck and stay safe!

 

[argoagro]

Yo I love seeing threads like this, I've experienced the life altering devestation fire causes REAL FAST multiple times in my life.

I am planning to put all my lights on circuits with AFI Breakers.

Even though they were second hand which is sketchy I suppose, fire safety is the reason I chose to run magnetic ballasts that are UL listed and made in the USA.

I'd love to hear anyone else inputs on this subject.

 

[junior_grower]

AFI breakers do not woprk well with HID lighting, the tubes strick an arc and the breaker blows. GFCI are the best choice for grow rooms.

 

[spurr]

Thanks for the warning about AFI breaks. I have been using GFCI outlets for years and wouldn't grow without them. I use them for all outlets in my house.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

Thanks for the warning about AFI breaks. I have been using GFCI outlets for years and wouldn't grow without them. I use them for all outlets in my house.

You actually only need one per circuit I believe

 

[Bulldog11]

You actually only need one per circuit I believe

You can have a circuit breaker that is GFI protected.
You can have a GFI plug, that is the start of a daisy chain. The following plugs don't have to be GFI protected because they all run off the first GFI plug if "daisy chained."
You can also have GFI plugs wired normally every where needed.

Pick one, but you need to know what each GFI is rated for. You can't daisy chain 10 1000w lights on one GFI and so on.

 

[spurr]

You can have a circuit breaker that is GFI protected.
You can have a GFI plug, that is the start of a daisy chain. The following plugs don't have to be GFI protected because they all run off the first GFI plug if "daisy chained."
You can also have GFI plugs wired normally every where needed.

Pick one, but you need to know what each GFI is rated for. You can't daisy chain 10 1000w lights on one GFI and so on.

Nice post

 

[Tilt]

Don't get complacent about magnetic ballasts. I was working on a parking lot pole light today. 400 watt mh. The bulb and ballast blew the lense cover off and coated the inside of the fixture. The smell is still on my hands "yuck". Fried the lighting contactor for the lot too. I will find out what blew it when I get the boom lift out there next week.

 

[Tilt]

FYI gfci breakers are exspensive. 2 pole gfci breakers are very exspensive for the 240v crowd. It is more cost effective to daisy chain off a gfci outlet

 

[argoagro]

Don't get complacent about magnetic ballasts. I was working on a parking lot pole light today. 400 watt mh. The bulb and ballast blew the lense cover off and coated the inside of the fixture. The smell is still on my hands "yuck". Fried the lighting contactor for the lot too. I will find out what blew it when I get the boom lift out there next week.

Good post, please do. Could it have been related to the bulb life? I'm guessing not many people bother servicing those bulbs until it's out.

 

[ahhhavalanche!]

I dont have any cooling fans that can fail, my LEDs are passively heatsunk... but I am pretty sure my DIY LED lamp is still a fire hazard.

 

[grasspass]

I have been using a AFCI breaker with a 600 watt [mag ballast] and fans for about 6 weeks now and did find it tripped once . Don't know why. Have people been having problems with these and HID's?

 

[junior_grower]

AFCi breakers are not meant for any lighting circuit. you could swap it out for a normal breaker.

 

[Leroy Brown]

I have been using a AFCI breaker with a 600 watt [mag ballast] and fans for about 6 weeks now and did find it tripped once . Don't know why. Have people been having problems with these and HID's?

I've been running a 1K MH magnetic for a week now on a 15 amp afci, also using a rotary timer (Scares the shit out of me, not rated for a decent inductive load) and haven't had a single trip. I feel a hellofalot safer about it being on the afci during veg when I can't be there for the entire cycle.

I'll update in a few months.

From what I read about them online some of the early ones had some bad batches out there that will nuisance trip a lot from any load. Mine is a cutler hammer if that matters, but that's because my box is a c.h. also.

 

[sm0k4]

I dont have any cooling fans that can fail, my LEDs are passively heatsunk... but I am pretty sure my DIY LED lamp is still a fire hazard.

haha, that panel rocks. Here is one I crafted the other night. All from aluminum scraps at the shop.




21 Watts for a PC stealth cab. Being passively cooled in a sealed room it was barely warm after running for 2 hours. After 2 hours I think ambients rose in the room and caused the metal to finally start increasing in temps. Don't think I have to worry about fires.

 

[compost]

Are people using the GFCI 2 pole breakers? I thought it was a mute point since you aren't using the white neutral line wiring them. I always have the neutral line capped when running 240 for my lights. Now the relay on the light controlling contractor is plugged into a surge protector that is on a 120 GFCI plug.

One suggestion for people who have put in multiple GFCI plugs is to make sure they are wired correctly with the ground. You can't just keep a ground going through multiple plugs like you can do with your hot line. You need to have a junction on the first GFCI outlet that connects the ground going to the first GFCI plug with the ground incoming from the power box, and the ground going to the next outlet. Any outlet coming after the GFCI outlet should be protected if the wiring is correct. Mutiple GFCI outlets on the same line is no good.

 

[dxco]

AFCI breakers are Arc-Fault-Interruption devices & inturrupt the circuit if an arc is detected (like a loose connection in an outlet -They will nuisance-trip and quickly wear out if used with HID lighting. They are now required by NEC for bedrooms in residential dwellings.
Not for us! Unless you like your plants growing in the dark.
Ground Fault Interrupters ARE a very good idea for the grow room. Do not "daisy-chain" off one unless you're using them for pumps or fluorescent/CFL lights. -One GFI outlet per HID light (maybe two 400's). Don't buy the cheap 15A residential units for HID because they WILL fail eventually. Buy the commercial grade 20A units from a reputable manufacturer (P&S, Leviton,...) -Not M.A. DeInChina Company.
If you are smart enough to use a lighting controller for your lights, go one step further and invest in a GFCI/GFI breaker for the circuit. NOTE: Some of those (faulty) controllers that plug into a three-prong outlet will trip the GFI breaker if there are any 120v loads on the controller (including the timer & relay circuit) because they are using the ground as the Neutral Return path for the 120v side. In this case, the GFI is doing EXACTLY what is was meant to do: Interrupt the circuit in the case of a ground fault. ANY current flowing on the ground is a ground fault.
Grow rooms are a mix of water & electrical devices -A Hazarous combination if basic safety & electrical practices are not followed. It's easy to make the grow room safe. Mostly common sense but we can all use some help! The GFI is a really good start -And so are those Flame Defender automatic exstinguishers (another thread) and SMOKE ALARMS ARE A MUST!
A GFI can save your life-
How a GFI circuit works: The GFIC measures the current on the current-carrying conductors and "looks" for any leakage (what goes out must come back in) -Leakage could be current leaking through your body or the chassis of an HID ballast! In a 120v circuit it would measure the current of the neutral and the hot and if they are not equal, there is a fault (leakage). The 120/240 measures both hots and the neutral -If you were to put a clamp-type ammeter around the three wires, there should be zero current because, if there is no fault, the currents cancel each other out. If there were a fault, the ammeter would show current equal to the fault. There are different kinds of GFI breakers -Some are built to protect equipment and most (any available for residential & light commercial usage) are built to protect people from electrocution. The GFI's for our protection trip at like 5/1000th of an amp (5mA) -The equipment protection, industrial GFI's trip at about 35mA, which IS enough to kill you!

This is a great forum -Every grow site should have a safety forum as a public service to its members.

 

[Tilt]

If you want to protect your main breaker for your sub panel with a gfci. Get a hot tub subpanel. Home Depot 50 amps $50.00 last time I checked. They have lower and higher amps too. Cheaper than a 240v breaker by itself

 

[dxco]

Good info Tilt -sweet deal. The entire spa disconnect is cheaper than the price of a GFIC breaker alone. For another $30 you can buy the Cutler Hammer brand disconnect -which might be worth it as I'm not sure who makes the breaker inside of the $50 spa disco.
One more thing to check, if you plan to run any 120v loads on the protected circuit, is that the GFIC is 120/240 rated rather than straight 240 rated. The 120/240v model will have the white/neutral wire & a connection for the neutral of the protected circuit. Any 120v load will cause a fault if a straight 240v GFIC breaker is used... DX

 

[Flying High]

My limited understanding of HID or Fluorescent lamps, leads me to believe light is generated by arcing in a very basic sense. At first glance, it appears obvious a light bulb would trip the AFCI. With that said, I have several ideas why/how an AFCI breaker could energize a ballast as long as the ballast insulates the breaker from detecting the arc from the lamp.

With the above in mind, I decided to do a little more research...
Here is what I dug up in the past two hours researching everything from: HID, fluorescent, and incandescent lamps, ballasts, arc fault/flash/glow/discharge, arc-flash protection, and more...

Both HID and Fluorescent lamps require a ballast to operate. If my research is correct, this is because after the initial arc is struck(high resistance) in an HID for example, the resistance then drops dramatically, causing an increase in current until the bulb fails or over-current protection trips. So the ballast is used to regulate the current flowing thru the lamp and isolate the lamp from the main supply; while still providing enough current for lamp start-up.


Here is where the rubber meets the road; If Rives, Tilt, or any electrical professionals on here can correct any mistakes in my logic or thinking, please don't hesitate. Especially regarding the question I pose below.

Questions I have:

1.) Assuming the previous paragraphs are correct; as well as assuming I purchase/correctly install a sub-panel and appropriately matched AFCI breakers; will this provide any added fire and/or electrocution protection over an identical set-up using standard breakers or GFCI breakers?

2.) Are Cutler-Hammer or Homeline brand enclosures, panels, and breakers commonly available from Home Depot/Lowes of sufficient quality to even warrant adding AFCI protection; or should I change out my current panels?

2b) What I should ask; which brand panels and breakers would an electrical professional use in their own system if failure is not an option?


Thanks for any help, I apologize for writing a novel.