Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

[whodare]

would you be willing to trade in your coco for some hydroton...

i mean you do already have it setup for e&f you could just fill the channels with clay, no containers..


edit: .58 isnt bad my last run got ravaged by thrips, root aphids, and nute buildup and only pulled .52gpw

 

[heady blunts]

wow look at the love in here! what a supportive community

if it makes you feel better, that's about what I pulled from the SECOND run in my cab, and even though I've been smoking like a champ and donating handfuls to friends I've hardly dented my stash!

so l recommend you get the next round going with some automated irrigation, then sit back and enjoy your ELBOW of herb

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Put it down to the first run and move on bro, get an auto feeding system in there and feed them girls good. I really enjoyed the grow and the yield with the first run isn't that important. Keep it up bro.
HGO

 

[Chunkypigs]

Hey Anti,
totally awesome growlog. You did an amazing job of documentation as well
as design and execution. all that and a disco ball too! Don't bum out
about the gpw because I'd say .58 is a probably a home run to most people
who have actually grown plants. Every aspect of this log was above average
especially when you are honest about it coming up short of your highest
hopes. I was pretty quiet in the background through this but you
did ask for critique so here goes:

I think your design is limited by the size of your rootmass.
The floorplan seems less a function of best light for all those plants
and more about it fitting somewhere you thought it would be most stealth
in your basement. Perhaps you could look to increases in getting plant matter
spaced evenly from your lights. I've had grows whare I removed every
plant each time I watered and if you do that you are already a lightmover.
Don't look there to increase your GPW's.

to me it seems many budsickles maximizes GPW in a horizontal grow but vert
growing seems to maximize GPW easier by growing larger plants with less light.
Or through training to use all of the available space around the lights.
I always have plants underneath my vertical lights too.

I'd guess the best gains in GPW with vert come from growing plants taller
than the same amount of light used horizontally and that I believe is another
limiting factor in your design. You need to use all 6' of height that you
have down there for big gains so why not head back to the drawing board
and maybe give yourself a bigger chunk of the basement.

In your post #13 you mention thinking that 14 gram plants were possible in
the size pot you use but perhaps not with your current genetics. I always
seem to have a couple plants every grow that overperform but they are
in the minority of the grow for me. I'm always hoping my final harvest
numbers will reflect my best ever plant weights but its all about the average.

This thread deserves a sticky because you were a stoner with a wild ass
dream and you saw that shit through till the end AND took us for a cool ride.
Now show us some dried bud shots, Yo!
Great Work, can't wait to see what you come up with next time.

 

[GP73LPC]

you got a shitload of weed. i said you would get a shitload of weed.

like others have said .58 gpw is not bad....

you got a POUND OF WEED !!!!!

 

[Midnight Rudy]

Current ideas for possible upgrades:

• Adding yo-yo light mover so that existing lights travel up and down a foot or so.
• Adding 600w HPS in the center of cab OR Replacing the 400w bulbs with 600w bulbs
• Getting E&F fittings remounted and eliminating leaks so that table can be flooded for next round
• Buy an actual PH pen (suggestions wanted!)
• Shorten table by 6" or so to allow more headroom for top tier.

Sorry to hear about your current shitstorm Anti. This isn't as successful as you thought, but you now have that much more understanding of a vertical grow and the cmh lights so please don't feel this is a loss.

I have also just switched my overhead micro sog to a vert, but I also ditched my treepots (mt38's) because I was getting sick of the domino effect and the fan leaves getting all tangled when I try to pull a couple out. So I went to cut off 2-litre bottles @8" tall.

Either way my biggest challenge has been getting a good stretch and the plant that has preformed best for me was one that was transitioned from the old lighting to the new. Just after it stretched I switched and then it got vertical lighting. I ended up getting 21g dried from that one pot and my previous best under the overhead was about 9g, and most were in the 3-5g range. part of that was genetics I'm sure since it was a new strain and it was a Cali BB x Skunk cross.

Anyways, my suggestion to you would be to raise the ceiling as you have indicated and actually I would remove it all together myself. Having space above the lights to allow the heat to collect is probably better than the little bit of reflected light you are getting. More importantly though, I think the key to a small-pot vertical sog like this is to get the best of both worlds, and your system would allow for that. If you are not planning on running perpetual, then I would start the lighting as overhead untill the stretch is done and then go to vertical for them to fill in. I can't do the hybrid thing myself because I want to stay perpetual so I am working on vegging taller plants and that doesn't make nearly as much difference as you might think. Under my overhead lighting an inch or two of growth from a clone would put my top buds into my lights on some strains and I'm not getting anywaeres near that kind of stretch going vertical.

Either way this is a great build Anti... very impressive work my friend!! I have no doubt you will be increasing your yield each with each crop.

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Hey bro, Bobble has hit it on the head, more feeding trust me they will explode, here is what I would do for the V2 and I will be doing this after my next harvest comes in...

[Click Pictures to Enlarge]



I was thinking of a leaf guard at the bottom of the beds for drainage when I made that diagram but I think wire mesh would be the best bet, it's more stable, and as others are saying, make the bottom tier the same size of your top tier, squeeze in 64 plants and your set, also maybe install HPS after the stretch? The coco beds will give you a lot more room for roots to grow which = bigger yields.

That's about all the advice that I can give you at this moment bro, I need a smoke.

Keep it vert

HGO

ps, the thread stays stickied, you done a kickass job on it and it deserves it.

 

[bobblehead]

I agree 100% with HGO. Drill holes in the middle of the tiers for the water to drain through, and install gutters underneath to capture the water. Eliminate the pots completely. You don't need them. You could even buy some some landscape fabric, and raise your walls a bit.

You're shallow horizontal coco beds will work perfectly! HGO just saved you a bunch of money on pots. lol... It'll be so easy to clean up too... cauee the roots are gonna hold on to all the coco... Just line the bottom with perlite, and fill the rest with your mix...

 

[DHF]

Not gonna go into too much detail since too many chefs spoil the pot , but if yas got 50 watts per sq ft and dialed environment with each plant dialed and just touching the ones on each side of em at end of stretch , then the canopy is created and it`s off to the races if all is dialed.......now.....

Swellage till end of cycle depends on how much they eat and process TILL end of cycle, and not having a firm grip on ph will GREATLY affect how well they eat , so dialage comes at a price....never come ill -equipped cuz it`ll bite yas in the ass everytime....

HGO.....Not sure about the gutters with roots growin down into em creatin this nft hybrid type setup cuz I think even though top fed , it`d be more like an ebb and flow type rootzone where the gutters all but dry out between feeds and really don`t haveta worry bout controlling those bottom container temps to prevent root rot since the bulk of the rootzone`s encased in the upper buckets/containers/beds/gullies/etc/........

Regardless .....Killer pics and ideas Bro......make em happen.....

Respect Anti.....Not many folks come up with ideas and execute em to fruition and ever even HAVE a harvey much less do .58 gpw the first run.......

Un-sticky my ass.....I`ll throw a bitch fit and trust me I`m able.....You`re gettin there Bro.....

Strain.......constant intermittent feeds with small plants/rootzones cuz they dry out so fast with HID lighting........Strain.......environment.......Strain.......

Did I say this shit was strain dependent mostly.......I mean.....

You`re growin budsicles with little to no veg flipped and the ONLY thing that`ll make em what they needta be is stretch and swellage so......need a good hybrid.......not sayin what yer runnin won`t work......just gotta dial her better......flip sooner.....run more plants......create that canopy I preach about.....all the above and then some.......

You had buncha stretch and grew buncha stem but as you said they didn`t fill in and swell accordingly , and that`s where dialage comes in.....

I will say I think the cmh`s had a lot to do with the stretch and elongated internode spacing , but the swellage factor is food frequency and definitely ph related after end of stretch when hormone changes occur where the shit can be absorbed properly lights on and swell them bitches lights off.....

I`m just sayin.....takes time Bro....Know your strain....it`ll come....and make yas happy......

One more thingy for the record......IME it don`t matter what SIZE lights you use but rather the proper wattage per sq ft you create for max lumen absorption and swellage come choptime , and Anti just said his cfl nugs were way nicer than this run so I stand on my bucket and preach 50 watts per sq ft again.....

Peace....DHF..........

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

DHF, agreed. The 'NFT hybrid' idea was just a perk that I put on the design (stoned conception ), in reality it is a drip fed run to waste design. The roots growing into the guttering does give more work and worry that's why I stopped using the term, but yeah I think it has potential and doing it this way keeps with my style of growing so I'm sold. I've got heaths chiesel cut and I'm thinking about her in the setup, she's got a good stretch 3x but fills in with rock solid bud after the stretch so I'm a test her out this run and see what the score is bro.

Thanks Bro
HGO

 

[megayields]

YOU have Heath's Chiesel (drool) I so wanna run that outdoor that thing grows pig sized colas....LOVE your new design (edit: HGO..sorry in a LOT of pain atm), sorry have not been here much ...trying to prepare for hernia surgery. I'm sure your going to KILL it though!

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Mega, yeah I got 3 cuts of it rooting now, the cut looks mighty fine. She has a 3x stretch maybe a little too much but it's deffo do'able in a vert SOG if put into flower early enough. After she stretches she put's on some serious weight and fills in the stretch with rock solid fat bud, from the pics and reports I've seen so far of this cut, it's getting me excited. Plus Cheese x Sour Diesel.... how can you lose

HGO

 

[DHF]

Did ya`ll see fizzbomb`s thread in coco bout Heath`s Chiesel ?.....

Dewd sent his last 5 beans to a Growbro here in the states and cat was blessed with a purple pheno even Heath hasn`t come across...........

Talk about a find....and the hits keep on comin.........All things in time and patience is a virtue....

Yeah right....Gimme sum a dat Purple Chiesel.....

Peace.....Freds........

 

[Anti]

Wow. That was a helluva response!

would you be willing to trade in your coco for some hydroton...

i mean you do already have it setup for e&f you could just fill the channels with clay, no containers..

It was setup for E&F but there were leaks so I did the whole run via hand watering. I took the E&F fittings off the table and used a hole saw (as suggested early in the thread) to cut out the holes.

I went to the hardware today and bought some more silicone and some .25" board. I'm going to drill the holes for the E&F fittings through the 1/4" board and then glue, screw paint and silicone the 1/4" board to the bottom of the table. This way the E&F fittings will be water-tight.

I don't know shit about running hydroton vs. coco. At this point I'm figuring on using up the other block of coco that i've got sitting in front of me and seeing if I can dial it in.

Thanks for your input.

wow look at the love in here! what a supportive community

if it makes you feel better, that's about what I pulled from the SECOND run in my cab, and even though I've been smoking like a champ and donating handfuls to friends I've hardly dented my stash!

so l recommend you get the next round going with some automated irrigation, then sit back and enjoy your ELBOW of herb

I think you're right. Definitely a more positive way of looking at it. Thanks.

Put it down to the first run and move on bro, get an auto feeding system in there and feed them girls good. I really enjoyed the grow and the yield with the first run isn't that important. Keep it up bro.
HGO

Thanks HGO. Due to the response from the vert pioneers quoted in this message, as well as private messages recieved on the subject, I will recind my request to have the thread unstickied.

I'll do my damndest to make the next run better. With your help.

Hey Anti,
totally awesome growlog. You did an amazing job of documentation as well as design and execution. all that and a disco ball too! Don't bum out about the gpw because I'd say .58 is a probably a home run to most people who have actually grown plants. Every aspect of this log was above average especially when you are honest about it coming up short of your highest hopes.

Thanks very much.

I was pretty quiet in the background through this but you did ask for critique so here goes:

I think your design is limited by the size of your rootmass.

Please don't think I'm arguing as increasing rootmass seems a worthwhile experiment anyway, but I'm not sure my problem is a function of rootmass.

I say this because in the exact same containers I have grown the exact same strain (from clones of one single plant) for the last year under CFL and gotten MUCH denser, much HEAVIER buds under CFL.

The floorplan seems less a function of best light for all those plants and more about it fitting somewhere you thought it would be most stealth in your basement.

Trying to make it stealthy in the basement IS a factor that I considered. But I built this thing as a model before I even closed on the house and the "closet" was the last thing I factored in.

I built the table around the idea that 800w/50=16 and so I set out to build a space that would be roughly 16 sq. ft and my table if viewed as a single plane from above is 15 sq. ft. (2.5' wide x 6' long)

Perhaps you could look to increases in getting plant matter spaced evenly from your lights. I've had grows whare I removed every plant each time I watered and if you do that you are already a lightmover.
Don't look there to increase your GPW's.

Hmm. Good point. Maybe if I had left each plant in the same place in the cabinet I would have several plants that were as thick and chunky as I am accustomed to and have extremely larfy plants in the corners.

to me it seems many budsickles maximizes GPW in a horizontal grow but vert growing seems to maximize GPW easier by growing larger plants with less light. Or through training to use all of the available space around the lights. I always have plants underneath my vertical lights too.

I'd guess the best gains in GPW with vert come from growing plants taller than the same amount of light used horizontally and that I believe is another limiting factor in your design. You need to use all 6' of height that you have down there for big gains so why not head back to the drawing board
and maybe give yourself a bigger chunk of the basement.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will be mulling this for a few days. I can see myself trying out different setups in the future, but at the moment I need to figure out a way to optimize this setup to produce as many quality nugs as it can reasonably be expected to do. As time passes I may upgrade or rebuild or completely redesign my setup as I evolve.

In your post #13 you mention thinking that 14 gram plants were possible in the size pot you use but perhaps not with your current genetics.

Let me be more clear since a few people have said things similar to this.

I *GOT* 14 gram plants from the SAME genetics in the SAME pots (in a different medium) in my CFL cabinet. These plants were considerably shorter than my first run in my coloseum, and the colosseum plants actually got a week of veg where my CFL plants got flowered straight from rooting.

you got a shitload of weed. i said you would get a shitload of weed.

like others have said .58 gpw is not bad....

you got a POUND OF WEED !!!!!

Thanks homie. I'll see if I can't get at least a pound of DENSER nugs next round.

Sorry to hear about your current shitstorm Anti. This isn't as successful as you thought, but you now have that much more understanding of a vertical grow and the cmh lights so please don't feel this is a loss.

I have also just switched my overhead micro sog to a vert, but I also ditched my treepots (mt38's) because I was getting sick of the domino effect and the fan leaves getting all tangled when I try to pull a couple out. So I went to cut off 2-litre bottles @8" tall.

Either way my biggest challenge has been getting a good stretch and the plant that has preformed best for me was one that was transitioned from the old lighting to the new. Just after it stretched I switched and then it got vertical lighting. I ended up getting 21g dried from that one pot and my previous best under the overhead was about 9g, and most were in the 3-5g range. part of that was genetics I'm sure since it was a new strain and it was a Cali BB x Skunk cross.

Anyways, my suggestion to you would be to raise the ceiling as you have indicated and actually I would remove it all together myself. Having space above the lights to allow the heat to collect is probably better than the little bit of reflected light you are getting. More importantly though, I think the key to a small-pot vertical sog like this is to get the best of both worlds, and your system would allow for that. If you are not planning on running perpetual, then I would start the lighting as overhead untill the stretch is done and then go to vertical for them to fill in. I can't do the hybrid thing myself because I want to stay perpetual so I am working on vegging taller plants and that doesn't make nearly as much difference as you might think. Under my overhead lighting an inch or two of growth from a clone would put my top buds into my lights on some strains and I'm not getting anywaeres near that kind of stretch going vertical.

Either way this is a great build Anti... very impressive work my friend!! I have no doubt you will be increasing your yield each with each crop.

Thanks for the ideas and the advice. I can't make the ceiling any higher than it is. There's one section where it's only about 5' high but that's because there's a ventillation duct running through there. The only way to raise the roof is to make the table shorter, which I am about to do in the next day or so once I get an opinion. (more on that in a minute.)

Hey bro, Bobble has hit it on the head, more feeding trust me they will explode, here is what I would do for the V2 and I will be doing this after my next harvest comes in...

[Click Pictures to Enlarge]



I was thinking of a leaf guard at the bottom of the beds for drainage when I made that diagram but I think wire mesh would be the best bet, it's more stable, and as others are saying, make the bottom tier the same size of your top tier, squeeze in 64 plants and your set, also maybe install HPS after the stretch? The coco beds will give you a lot more room for roots to grow which = bigger yields.

That's about all the advice that I can give you at this moment bro, I need a smoke.

ps, the thread stays stickied, you done a kickass job on it and it deserves it.

I will be implementing many of your suggestions HGO. And I have some questions:

Is there any reason I can't drain to waste by using the existing hole I've already cut for my E&F fittings?

Your drawing shows the drains in the centers, but my holes are cut on one end of the table. Since I'm shortening the legs anyway, it occured to me that I could shorten the end where the drain holes are located by an extra inch and make the whole table slope gently toward the drain.

Is there a good reason not to do this? The holes are already cut on the sides of the table. They'd have to be plugged and new holes cut in the center, if so.

Then I could make a mesh "floor" leaving an inch or so below the coco bed for drainage.

Eventually, I could completely redesign the table using your NFT gutters, but do you think what I've described will work in the short-term?

And will my 496 GPH pump be able to run 70 drippers?

I agree 100% with HGO. Drill holes in the middle of the tiers for the water to drain through, and install gutters underneath to capture the water. Eliminate the pots completely. You don't need them. You could even buy some some landscape fabric, and raise your walls a bit.

As I just mentioned above there are already a hole in each tier where I had the E&F fittings installed. Is there any reason I could not simply drain to waste from there?

You're shallow horizontal coco beds will work perfectly! HGO just saved you a bunch of money on pots. lol... It'll be so easy to clean up too... cause the roots are gonna hold on to all the coco... Just line the bottom with perlite, and fill the rest with your mix...

Are you recommending perlite as a means of allowing drainage? If I got landscape fabric and put it up on some mesh "stilts" would this do the same job as the perlite? How many inches of perlite do you recommend if not?

Not gonna go into too much detail since too many chefs spoil the pot , but if yas got 50 watts per sq ft and dialed environment with each plant dialed and just touching the ones on each side of em at end of stretch , then the canopy is created and it`s off to the races if all is dialed.......now.....

I think one of the cheapest and easiest experiments I can do with my current setup is simply to switch to HPS for the next run and see what difference it makes.

I know a lot of people use CMH for the first two weeks and then flip HPS for the rest of the grow.

I wonder if anyone has an opinion on doing that vs. running HPS or CMH the whole way through.

Also wonder if anyone has opinions on 400w HPS bulbs. I paid about $50 each for my 400w CMH. (For those who don't know the CMH run on HPS ballasts so I just have to unscrew my CMH bulbs and screw the HPS bulb in.

I'll try and get some dried shots of the buds but I need to get some work done on this table remodel as a first priority.

So, to sum up:

Ideas in the running for next round:

• Swap out 400w CMH with 400w HPS. (400w HPS Bulb Suggestions wanted ASAP!)
• Ditch treepots in favor of coco beds with individual drip irrigation for each plant in a drain-to-waste setup. (Suggestions as far as bed depth, plant density, feeding tips, etc. needed.)
• Cut back to 50 plants from 70 and space them out accordingly to see if this helps with nug swellage. (Opinions wanted.)
• Build a new mom chamber so that I can pop some beans in my micro cab and find some new candidates to try out in the colosseum.

 

[Anti]

Oh yeah. There's no way to make the bottom tier the same size as the top tier without a complete redesign of the table. So that idea will have to wait until i do a complete redesign of the table.

 

[bobblehead]

I suggest multiple holes of a large enough diameter that they're not going to get clogged... So drill some 1" holes, cover them in some nylon screen, don't use metal, and then put a layer of perlite over that, 1 inch deep. IDK how deep your tiers are already... but if they're at least 6", I say you should be gtg. You need to do multiple holes to ensure drainage and aeration. You'll have water collecting in there with only 1 drain, and that's not what you want. I mean some guys believe in passive hydro and if that's the approach you wanna take... more power to ya... but I want to be closer to fast hydro. Give the plants good drainage, so you can feed them more fresh juice sooner. My $0.02...

Gutters are easy to work with... $5 for 10', it's the corners and drains that cost a bit.. but not too much.

 

[Anti]

I suggest multiple holes of a large enough diameter that they're not going to get clogged... So drill some 1" holes, cover them in some nylon screen, don't use metal, and then put a layer of perlite over that, 1 inch deep. IDK how deep your tiers are already... but if they're at least 6", I say you should be gtg. You need to do multiple holes to ensure drainage and aeration. You'll have water collecting in there with only 1 drain, and that's not what you want.

Ok. Let me repeat this and see if I get it. You're saying drill 1" holes all the way around both tiers and then attach gutters beneath those holes to catch the runoff. You're further suggesting that I put nylon screen over the holes and then fill in an inch of perlite above that before laying down a coco bed.

The tiers are approximately 5.75" deep, btw.

What I was thinking was to find a way to elevate a "floor" of nylon screen about an inch from the bottom. so that there could be up to an inch of water (as it drained) without being in contact with the perlite layer.

Do you think this would be an acceptable compromise?

What if I throw in angling the table so that it slopes toward the drains and put use two E&F fittings per tier? (So table would slope toward two E&F fittings on their lowest settings which would drain to the waste res.) Would the 1" of make-shift guttering + doubling down on the drains do the trick until I could completely redesign the table?

And does anybody think that a $50 Hortilux SolarMax Enhanced Spectrum Bulb (or some other "horticultural" HPS) at 55,000 lumen will justify the price difference over a $14 (50,000 lumen) standard HPS?

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

I took this from post #436 by HGO. I don't know where in the grow you originally posted this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti
Current feeding style: Submersion watering.

* 20 plants at a time are placed in a standard milk crate (about 12" cubed).
* The crate goes into a larger container filled with about 16 gallons of water.
* The crate sinks to the bottom as the pots take on water.
* When the crate is resting at the bottom and no bubbling is evident, the crate is removed from the water and placed over an empty container to drain.
* Once it drains, the plants go back into the cab with the smallest plants in the center and the tallest plants in the corners.
* Whole cycle gets repeated about 48 hours later



You never really got to see how this table would work as you originally designed. You built an automated ebb & flow system but hand watered once every two days instead.

I've read that it's easy to get lulled into treating coco like soil, when it's really a hydroponic medium. Sometimes I wonder when I get EC readings after trying to flush the stuff, but I'd like to question the nutrient holding/releasing capacity of the coco particle here. With soil the medium is providing the nutrients and the water is acting as a carrier to allow transport into the roots. In hydroponics the water is the source as well as being the carrier of nutrients. The medium is there to support and shelter roots, and hold the nutrient rich solution between feedings.

I think the reason your buds didn't swell like your CFL grows was that your plants could have been shorted on nutrients this time. You thought they were happy only watering every other day because they didn't show water stress, but you were also only feeding them every other day. There was water in the containers the second day to prevent wilt but the plants had already sucked all the nutrients out of it.

I suspect that if you hook up the pumps and a reservoir as designed, and feed them twice a day during lights on, you'll get the fat buds you want.

 

[bobblehead]

Ok. Let me repeat this and see if I get it. You're saying drill 1" holes all the way around both tiers and then attach gutters beneath those holes to catch the runoff. You're further suggesting that I put nylon screen over the holes and then fill in an inch of perlite above that before laying down a coco bed.

The tiers are approximately 5.75" deep, btw.

What I was thinking was to find a way to elevate a "floor" of nylon screen about an inch from the bottom. so that there could be up to an inch of water (as it drained) without being in contact with the perlite layer.

Do you think this would be an acceptable compromise?

What if I throw in angling the table so that it slopes toward the drains and put use two E&F fittings per tier? (So table would slope toward two E&F fittings on their lowest settings which would drain to the waste res.) Would the 1" of make-shift guttering + doubling down on the drains do the trick until I could completely redesign the table?

And does anybody think that a $50 Hortilux SolarMax Enhanced Spectrum Bulb (or some other "horticultural" HPS) at 55,000 lumen will justify the price difference over a $14 (50,000 lumen) standard HPS?

if you elevate the screen, then you're going to loose that much root space. As long as you don't do the NFT idea, the roots will get air-pruned... I would attach drain fitting to the holes so that they direct the runoff into the gutter, instead of running along the bottom...

In HGO's design, he has a mesh bottom I believe... a layer of hydroton, and then the coco? idk, but yeah... In such a design, the air comes in with the water... and so the water has to have somewhere to go so it can pull the water in. Makes lots of holes. Maybe you can even line the bottom with landscape fabric instead of nylon screen.

 

[bobblehead]

double post