Bicarbonates in coco...please give your input

[Lowman]

I think you will be continually chasing the problem with the way you are doing things.

I have been growing in coco for years....and I don't use RO water. I tried it once...and it caused too many problems for me. My tap water is 0.6 EC.

Looks like calcium is locked out to me.

Suggestion...Flush(leach) one plant with low ec nutes(under 1.0) with cal/mag added, and some kelp based product if you have it. No need to transplant. Mix your ro & tap water till you find a ratio that gives you a normal EC reading under 0.6. Ensure the tap water has had time to release the chlorine if using city water.

Mix cal/mag FIRST 5ml/G. Then nutes to achieve an EC of 1.2. I would also suggest a silica product be included in your regime.

Should be golden after that. Just try it on one plant and I think you'll be surprised.

 

[dramamine]

As far as Canna and RO, I was referring to the instructions on the bottle that say..."Recommended EC for Coco A + B os 0.8 - 1.8....assuming source water at 0.0 EC." They're not telling you to use RO, but they are using it as their reference point. I'll only add that plenty of people do not use cal mag and have excellent results......and if you look at Canna's feeding schedule, there's no cal mag recommended. They should start making some if they don't....they'd sell a shitload of it.

GDK has already been using Cal Mag, has already been feeding within reasonable levels. As Lowman said, it looks like cal (or mag) are not available to the plant. But this doesn't mean to add more cal-mag. That's kinda like trying to feed someone soup, but giving them a fork to eat it with. More soup won't help..............

The problem is a simple ph imbalance, caused by the high alkalinity of GDK's tap water........... Lowman, do you really think it's the best idea to use even more of the high alkalinity tap water, despite the ph imbalance it's caused? Seems like he was already doing exactly what you've suggested here. Nobody's tap water is exactly like anyone else's, so it's not a great idea to base your feeding schedule on someone else's city water.

You can't just ignore the severe ph imbalance.........it will lock out all kinds of nutes....and it has. Using RO water, at least for the near future, will help bring the ph back into balance............ Like I said, some alkalinity is a good thing, a ph stabilizer. It's pretty clear that GDK's tap has a lot of alkalinity.......mixing his tap with RO to EC 0.6 won't make it the same as Lowman's starting water. It's very alkaline. It's thrown the ph balance way off. How can anyone's advice fail to acknowledge that?

Good luck with it, GDK, whatever solution you decide on.

 

[Lowman]

As Lowman said, it looks like cal (or mag) are not available to the plant. But this doesn't mean to add more cal-mag. That's kinda like trying to feed someone soup, but giving them a fork to eat it with. More soup won't help..............

The problem is a simple ph imbalance, caused by the high alkalinity of GDK's tap water........... Lowman, do you really think it's the best idea to use even more of the high alkalinity tap water, despite the ph imbalance it's caused? Seems like he was already doing exactly what you've suggested here. Nobody's tap water is exactly like anyone else's, so it's not a great idea to base your feeding schedule on someone else's city water.

You can't just ignore the severe ph imbalance.........it will lock out all kinds of nutes....and it has. Using RO water, at least for the near future, will help bring the ph back into balance............ Like I said, some alkalinity is a good thing, a ph stabilizer. It's pretty clear that GDK's tap has a lot of alkalinity.......mixing his tap with RO to EC 0.6 won't make it the same as Lowman's starting water. It's very alkaline. It's thrown the ph balance way off. How can anyone's advice fail to acknowledge that?

Good luck with it, GDK, whatever solution you decide on.

Yes...based on the severe ph swings the Op was using to feed with, to try and fix the issue...I feel it's best not to chase the problem...but to go back to basics. Checking runoff in coco is never a good gauge to go by. Some coco should be removed from the root zone and allowed to soak in distilled water for a bit...then measured.

My suggestion was to use my method for one plant...just for ease of mind. What can it hurt? Coco is very forgiving I find...and sometimes it's best to just cut way back on all the bullshit additives and fancy techniques...and just grow basic. Then add new additives and techniques when you're dialed in. I learned that the hard way!

 

[Mister_D]

Well i'll throw my 2 cents in here also. As has been stated nobodies water is the same, but I have some experience with high alkalinity water causing similar problems. What I did intially was switch to straight ro water, no changes where made to nutrient levels, ph (5.5.-5.8) or feed frequency. This was slowly bringing them back to health as the excess bicarbonates were neutralized by the acids in my nutes. I tried flushing a few plants in 3 gal. pots with with approx. 5 gals of ro nutrient water (nutrients were at normal feed strength). I didn't notice much difference between the flushed plants and those that had just gotten normal feedings. As the bicarbonates didn't seem to flush from the media I decided the easiest/quickest fix would be to simply remove all of the bicarbonate filled media and replace it with fresh coco. This can be a bit time consuming depending on the amount of plants you have, but it did work. I took each plant pulled it out of it's pot and proceded to massage the roots free of the coco by working my fingers carefully as I could into the root mass and shaking the plant until 95%+ of the coco was removed. Dunking the root mass in a half filled tub during the process can help loosen and remove the media. Once most of old coco is gone simply transplant into a another pot of fresh coco and water as normal. Obviously using cal/mag treated ro or another good source of water. The plants stunted for about a day, some two, but then began growing vigorous as usual. If you feel up to experimenting i'm sure you could find a suitable ro/tap mixture that achieves and acceptable level of bicarbonates, but until things are healthy eliminate variables and use ro and cal/mag or known good source water. Hope that helps and good luck.

 

[GDK]

Well i flushed em with 5.5 pH and 0.5 ec. Runoff came out with pH between 5.9-6.5, and ec 0.6-0.8 between all 8 plants. Gave em a normal feeding with pH 5.7 and ec 1.3. Let them go for 2 days and transplanted to 20 liter buckets. I was unable to remove any coco due to the amount of roots. All plants had healthy looking roots, with the exception of 2 which had 90% white roots, but with a small area of darker(not brown). I then watered with pH 5.7 and ec 1.6 consisting of rainwater, good amount of cannazyme, A+B and AN Jumpstart for the roots. Still no signs of improvement today, but i hope there will be over the next few days. 2 plants are lookin like they are back to normal but they were already improving before the transplant yesterday.

Stay Safe

 

[praisehim.]

High alkalinity is correct, partly. I dont know much but, ive heard overfeeding, and over lighting can cause a mutated look,something about chlorophyll. Transplanting is pointless, like you said, your roots look good.

raise your lights, drop your nitrogen a bit (leaves too dark), use only RO and check your ph prior to feeding everyday. Then slowly ease back into where you wanna be..

 

[MrBill1969]

GDK--

If you want to learn about water chemistry talk to a pool guy and then trundle off to your friendly local tropical fish store and talk to somebody who starts with a garden hose of muni water and ends up with a 200 gal tank of sea water. They know their poo-poo.

What I do:

Tap water
add one ml of tap water dechlorinator per ten gal water
I use Top Fin -- $6 bottle will clear 2400 gal. Econ 101 folks should understand.

I add 50 ml Pro-Tekt and 50 ml Cal-Mag+ back into my 50 gal rez to get the ppm back to 100 to 200 ppm. These levels are working for me where I live -- yours may vary. Use a meter.

Now I have water that is fairly stable and the carbonate hardness of the re-built water will act as a pH buffer to stabilize the swings.

Now do your nute regimen and pH the nutes per the label. I like it to run 5.6 to 6.1 or so and I really don't mind it in flux a bit as long as it stays within the range.

Peace

 

[GDK]

High alkalinity is correct, partly. I dont know much but, ive heard overfeeding, and over lighting can cause a mutated look,something about chlorophyll. Transplanting is pointless, like you said, your roots look good.

raise your lights, drop your nitrogen a bit (leaves too dark), use only RO and check your ph prior to feeding everyday. Then slowly ease back into where you wanna be..

Not sure you read my last response. Im am way past the mutated overfed look now, and im looking at calmag deficiencies and possibly P too. I did transplant and i have been using RO or rain for the past month.
Thanks tho.

GDK--

If you want to learn about water chemistry talk to a pool guy and then trundle off to your friendly local tropical fish store and talk to somebody who starts with a garden hose of muni water and ends up with a 200 gal tank of sea water. They know their poo-poo.

What I do:

Tap water
add one ml of tap water dechlorinator per ten gal water
I use Top Fin -- $6 bottle will clear 2400 gal. Econ 101 folks should understand.

I add 50 ml Pro-Tekt and 50 ml Cal-Mag+ back into my 50 gal rez to get the ppm back to 100 to 200 ppm. These levels are working for me where I live -- yours may vary. Use a meter.

Now I have water that is fairly stable and the carbonate hardness of the re-built water will act as a pH buffer to stabilize the swings.

Now do your nute regimen and pH the nutes per the label. I like it to run 5.6 to 6.1 or so and I really don't mind it in flux a bit as long as it stays within the range.

Peace

Yea i just ordered a bottle of calmag. Reason i did not do this sooner is because that the guy that directed me told me that theres sufficient amounts of cal and mg in my A+B base nutes. But it seems that most ppl that use RO also have to supplement with calmag. So im gettin it. As for goin back to tap...well i got pretty scared off by these fucking bicarbs so i prolly wont use tap again. I have no idea of what kinda levels are normal, but everybody who has seen my water analysis has been shocked about the amount of hydrogen carbonate. So its RO for me.

The plants are lookin slightly better today tho. I let them dry out a little to make the roots grow into the new coco a little and gave em a thorough watering yesterday..they look better today. Looks like i made the right decision after consulting you guys..not to say that im home safe yet, but im keeping my fingers crossed. Plants are so big by now, that i will prolly have to lose some of them to make room for the stretch when i flip em.
Im still waiting for my Canon 550D to show up, so i can document this shit.

Stay Safe

 

[blockhead411]

Exactly GDK, just use a normal pH, lower the nutes, COCO is pretty hard to screw up, and to date, just using KISS drain to waste, not going above 2.3 ml/L feed [canna] and pH always 5.8 to 6, zero problems for myself or any friends.

This is with my high pH well water, but also works with friends crappy town water, never used a drop of RO, perfect crops.

One buddy on the coast had some issues, poss crappy Chlorinated water, so he lets it stand 24h as a precaution, now has no problems.

Otherwise, I think there may be an issue with Temps and coco, I think coco goes out of range before soil grown plants when it gets too cold, maybe the medium's high water content gives more efficient thermal conduction. Easy to fix with a heater, but it can become an issue at this time of year above the equator.



I have never seen this, looked into RO a lot after seeing so many people online talking about it, so I ended up talking to Canna people and Mr General Hydroponics about it, face to face, and got the same answer "we develop our nutes for plain tapwater, including all the carbonates that buffer it and keep it stable. People who remove them have to put in [expensive bottled] cal mag to replace the cal and mag they have removed and then they have problems with yo-yoing pH, they may even need more additives to cure.

I think your right as far as the temps go with coco. I never had any problems with soil with these cold night time temps. However now with coco Im finding maybe since there are so many more roots, they dont like it too cold during lights off.

 

[medical marvel]

that is true. if you use a heater in the winter, make sure it starts at the root zone, low in the room. Better yet use a small heater outside the space, and set this heater near you main, or near a smaller purpose built inlet for the warm air. Your coco plants will be rocking the next morning. This is a sure fire way to help reduce calmag issues and lack lustre root growth.

 

[volhead]

Recommended being the key word on the side of the canna btl. That why the have a nute calculator on there site where you plug in your water hardness. RO is waste of time and money unless your water is coming out above or 500-1000ppm. There about a kagillion of us from humboldt to LA running without ro with some of the worst source water(not all bad but some parts of urban cali and some ppls well water is shit some is great, helps if your well pulls off the top of the aquifer instead of deep into it) in the country. now i will say this, that water in la gets bad and has to be ro depending on where your at in socal. RO= something very few need and a waste of YOUR money. if you have to use RO a silicate well help keep your ph from yo yoing. Chaos could not have said all this better glad to see someone repping that as well. Also please someone find me the science behind checking runoff of coco does not work. If im wrong im wrong but i dont see how its any different than checking the runoff of any other medium using synthetic nutes. I just cant believe the countless ppl here out west that i have come in to contact with that run in coco and check runoff and HAVE ZERO problems are wrong. but if we are i would love to know

 

[SeaMaiden]

Actually, if you refer to the 'science', which would mean the scientific method, I personally have never seen anyone in the field using run-off to help them resolve a single problem. They always perform a soil (media) test. One of those tests involves the method I believe I outlined on the previous page using clean water of known parameters and making a slurry of samples with it.

My own experience is that I wasn't able to resolve a thing by testing run-off. I'll go further, I found that if I stayed locked into the numbers as they 'should' be, I would have caused problems with the plants. Again, a media test doesn't present that kind of issue for me. I'll suggest that just because every other cannabis grower does it this way doesn't necessarily make it right (or wrong), it's just not what I found when I searched other, better established areas of horticulture/agriculture for methods to resolve issues.

 

[Lowman]

Recommended being the key word on the side of the canna btl. That why the have a nute calculator on there site where you plug in your water hardness. RO is waste of time and money unless your water is coming out above or 500-1000ppm. There about a kagillion of us from humboldt to LA running without ro with some of the worst source water(not all bad but some parts of urban cali and some ppls well water is shit some is great, helps if your well pulls off the top of the aquifer instead of deep into it) in the country. now i will say this, that water in la gets bad and has to be ro depending on where your at in socal. RO= something very few need and a waste of YOUR money. if you have to use RO a silicate well help keep your ph from yo yoing. Chaos could not have said all this better glad to see someone repping that as well. Also please someone find me the science behind checking runoff of coco does not work. If im wrong im wrong but i dont see how its any different than checking the runoff of any other medium using synthetic nutes. I just cant believe the countless ppl here out west that i have come in to contact with that run in coco and check runoff and HAVE ZERO problems are wrong. but if we are i would love to know

I agree with you regarding the use of RO water....especially in coco.

Regarding the testing of runoff.... I have actually compared a runoff test with a media test. I was having a problem with a norcal Gooey I was running. I watered her(ph 5.8, EC 1.2) and tested the runoff(I try not to have hardly any runoff usually)....the runoff said Ph 5.6, EC 1.2). Not much to go by there. So I did a media test( described to me here: http://www.integralhydro.com/cocoscience.html) PH was actually 5.0 and ec was 1.9.

I'll go with the rootzone test any day.

Copied from Integral Hydroponics:

pH measurements in Coir​

Coco coir buffers pH in the range of 5.5 – 7. However bacterial activity and nutrient quality can have an impact on pH stability within the media.​

Another misconception I have commonly encountered is that by measuring the run off (waste) in coir it is possible to measure the pH of the medium. Let’s quickly dispel with this myth. Coir media will retain some elements and release others (a process of preferential retention of cations) based on the uptake needs of plants and the prevailing conditions of/within the media.​

Because of this, measuring the run off (waste) will not reflect the pH within the coir medium (i.e. the rhizosphere environment of the plants).​

The correct way to measure pH, in coco substrate, is to take samples of the media from around the root zone. These samples are then added to distilled water at a 5:1 ratio (5 parts distilled water to 1 part media), then vigorously shaken or blended and tested with a pH meter. This method will provide you with the correct pH within the coir media (rhizosphere) environment.




​

 

[mpd]

I must be on glue. I use my nasty tap water (TDS of 300~350!) and GH Micro and Bloom and it all works. I run some SM-90 in at the beginning to help with roots and dose up with Cal Mag+ every now and then, but really that's it and the plants eat it up.

Am I missing out on something?

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I must be on glue. I use my nasty tap water (TDS of 300~350!) and GH Micro and Bloom and it all works. I run some SM-90 in at the beginning to help with roots and dose up with Cal Mag+ every now and then, but really that's it and the plants eat it up.

Am I missing out on something?

It's a nute thing. Rez, H3ad and a lot of other growers are showing awesome results with GH 6/9 and R/O water (or super close to it)... maybe a hint of epsom when a strain gets a little hungry for mag.

You guys are making my head spin. Been a straight R/O water guy for a decade as I've always lived in areas with really bad tap-water. Arsenic, alkaline, slime... you name it.

Learn to work with R/O when you possibly can.... unless you have tap-water that monks would drool over to make wine with.

Stay Safe!

edit: At the very least... make sure you use R/O water for the last 1-2 weeks, depending on strain. Makes a small to huge difference, depending on what's in your tap-water.

Edit Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that you know there's an issue with your local water, you have an R/O machine... save yourself a bunch of hassle and just learn what your plants need from your nutes when you're using R/O. If they are mag deficient, add some epsom. If they're calcium deficient, get a calcium supplement and work that in. Once you know what you're plants require from your nutes and R/O... you'll be able to duplicate that, anywhere you have access to R/O and your nutes.

 

[Lowman]

I must be on glue. I use my nasty tap water (TDS of 300~350!) and GH Micro and Bloom and it all works. I run some SM-90 in at the beginning to help with roots and dose up with Cal Mag+ every now and then, but really that's it and the plants eat it up.

Am I missing out on something?

Not at all. Your tap water is better than mine. Almost the same formula I use except I only feed about 1/3 strength of the 6/9 recipe. I keep my ec at about 1.2. The only time I raise it up is when I use a bloom booster a couple of times during flower.

My outdoor garden loves my tap water too. I have a autowatering system setup for my veggies outside....and they don't get RO water...yet they seem to thrive.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I must be on glue. I use my nasty tap water (TDS of 300~350!) and GH Micro and Bloom and it all works.

I'm sure it works great.

The only thing you're missing is my sensitivity. Your bud will burn my throat and leave a film in my mouth.... any tap water over 100 does that to me. Even feeding plain R/O to plants their last 2 weeks, when grown with 300-350 tap-water, will make it unpleasant for someone like me.
(edit: Keep in mind that I'm like one in a thousand, at least, with this sensitivity level)

Other than that... everything should be peachy.


Stay Safe!

R/O water is the only 'water' that's great for growing that you can duplicate anywhere.... with just an R/O machine. Tap-water is like hairlines... eveyone's is different.

 

[GDK]

Wow this thread has blown up...im real happy about that since it might benefit others in my situation..to all the contributors i want to say a big thank you for your advice and time.

Heres the deal:
Like i stated in my first post i was having issues like my pics clearly showed too. I went in the chat and started talking to another member who seems very clever chemistry wise, and i dont want to blame him for anything. I gave him the rundown of my problems...yellowing of top leaves and purple stems and petioles alongside a droopy look and stunted growth, and a high ph runoff. Per his advice i started watering with crazy low ph nute solutions, and NO tapwater in the mix at all because if the high hydrogen carbonate count, and reported back to him almost daily with the runoff data...nothing happened. Then i made this thread and all the advice i was given, was pointing me towards goin back to what was working for me in the beginning. So i said fuck it and went back to feeding rainwater with a ph between 5.5-5.9 and ec 1.2. The girls started perking up, but still looks pale and deficient. Its been a long ass time combating this problem and the plants grew huge so i had to lose one to make room, and i will prolly have to cull more plants when i flip them because of room issues. I also decided to not check runoff anymore but just go by plant looks. Well yesterday i did check and the ph seems perfect ranging from 5.4-6.1 from 6 different plants. EC was a bit low tho, ranging from 0.4-1.0, so i believe that might be a simple sign of the girls simply being hungry? I fed them a heavy dose of nutes yesterday and i think i might let them go to tomorrow without water to let them eat up all them nutes they got yesterday...i also bought a new DSLR camera so heres some updated pics of much better quality...

NITERIDER

KO KUSH

P-GUM

SOUR KUSH

SOUR D

SOUR D

SOUR D

SHISHKABERRY

STARFUNK

Judging by the runoff pH it seems that part is on lock now...so im wondering if these girls are just hungry now...whatcha think?

Stay Safe

 

[SeaMaiden]

They're a hot mess! You've got some cleaning up to do on them before you flip 'em. If I understand the progression of the pix it does appear that they've improved. Last photo is almost a classic simple Mg deficiency, easily corrected.

Try foliaring 1/4tsp MgSO4 with a few drops of dish soap (something for a sticker-spreader, whatever you like to use). If you see greening up within a day or three, that's all that's needed.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

What are the temps in there ? Do you have a min max thermometer to check ?

A probe in the coco will give you the rootzone temps, on p2 of this thread it got mentioned and someone else has had this....

Are you sure they have not just got too cold ? They look very similar to cold coco plants sulking I have seen.