What is happening to the USA??? Give us your input.

[GP73LPC]

on the topic of political correctness, the war on Christmas and Christianity...

we have freedom of religion in this country, which also by the way includes the RIGHT not to be oppressed with others religion also... our founding fathers left europe for some of these very reasons....

the problem is christians have long had a majority and wrongfully (according to the constitution) have pushed their beliefs upon society through public prayer, prayer in schools, displaying of nativity scenes, displaying of the ten commandments, etc...

now before you attack me listen up. i am a christian, but i understand the law and how it protects people from religious persecution and oppression.

since islam is the current religion to hate in America let me pose this question:

If you as a christian were forced to pray a muslim prayer everyday because muslims were the majority in America would that be acceptable to you. if your answer is no, then QUIT bitching and STOP acting like there is a war on christmas or religion. there isn't, it's just the people who have had Christianity pushed onto them fighting back. after all the constitution does say this "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL"...

if you don't like that, change the constitution, leave the country or STFU....

Christians today are free to pray by themselves in public, private, school, etc... Praying should be more of a private matter and not boasting anyway according to scripture. Your churches can put nativity scenes, but govt bldgs should not and cannot endorse any specific religion...

the constitution and Christianity don't mix... oh wait, yes they do, and so does Judaism/constitution and Islam/constitution and Budism/constitution, etc..., etc..., etc...

/rant


Now Merry Christmas to all and have a Happy Holiday Season !!!!

 

[Hermanthegerman]

Hello GP73LPG,

the americans must do, what they think what´s good for themselfes but sometimes I have to smile. A christmastree is a christmastree, is a christmastree.
But for true, it´s intresting how much the us society is changing in the last 35 years since I watching it.

And this is sadly the point, where my english is to small to talk about. In german I could write a lot about it.

best regards

 

[TripleDraw27]

You know what it is? As I read in the newspaper this morning it´s a holiday tree. Americans shall say that for political correctness reasons and not christmas tree.

So sad, so true. The PC America is shredding us down to bits.

Pretty soon , we will be hog tied from any tradition from this Country cause a small minority gets their butt hurt.

In 2020, calling a small starbucks coffee a Tall will be a bad thing and considered insulting to tall people.

 

[SpasticGramps]

Yep. If they scratch ass long enough, numbers fall out, lol. Shit stats.

Speaking of scratching ass and shit stats.

Realtors: We Overcounted Home Sales for Five Years CNBC

Data on sales of previously owned U.S. homes from 2007 through October this year will be revised down next week because of double counting, indicating a much weaker housing market than previously thought.
The National Association of Realtors said a benchmarking exercise had revealed that some properties were listed more than once, and in some instances, new home sales were also captured.

"All the sales and inventory data that have been reported since January 2007 are being downwardly revised. Sales were weaker than people thought," NAR spokesman Walter Malony told Reuters.

"We're capturing some new home data that should have been filtered out and we also discovered that some properties were being listed in more than one list."

Re-Hypothecation and the collateral crunch. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Apparently, even head scratching produces sheety figures.

Another area of interesting counts was the 2010 Gitmo clash. Figures of successful civilian prosecutions ranged from 190 to over 300.

Holder referenced 300+

Obama referenced 190

Bushes figure was higher than 190 until the argument to close Guantanamo arose. But Bush had only 3 successful military commission prosecutions.

Politifact - There's a difference between enemy combatants and their support network. Criminal supporters were never slated for tribunals so counting them to justify closing Gitmo is misleading.

Politifact determined the number of actual terrorists, both foreign and domestic who were found guilty in civilian courts is 24.

However one could make the (arguably weak) observation that, according to statistics, civilian trials for terrorists are 8x more successful than tribunals. Even though Politifact acknowledged as much, they rated Obama as "misleading".

 

[SpasticGramps]

Well now we don't need trials for anyone anymore. If O decides you are a "terrorist" the military can now pick you up on American soil and throw in you jail forever without a trail. The US military is now allowed to operate on American soil and detain whoever they want whenever they want. Welcome to Nazi Germany.

Military given go-ahead to detain US terrorist suspects without trial

Barack Obama has abandoned a commitment to veto a new security law that allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial American terrorism suspects arrested on US soil who could then be shipped to Guantánamo Bay.

Human rights groups accused the president of deserting his principles and disregarding the long-established principle that the military is not used in domestic policing. The legislation has also been strongly criticised by libertarians on the right angered at the stripping of individual rights for the duration of "a war that appears to have no end".

The law, contained in the defence authorisation bill that funds the US military, effectively extends the battlefield in the "war on terror" to the US and applies the established principle that combatants in any war are subject to military detention.

The legislation's supporters in Congress say it simply codifies existing practice, such as the indefinite detention of alleged terrorists at Guantánamo Bay. But the law's critics describe it as a draconian piece of legislation that extends the reach of detention without trial to include US citizens arrested in their own country.

"It's something so radical that it would have been considered crazy had it been pushed by the Bush administration," said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch. "It establishes precisely the kind of system that the United States has consistently urged other countries not to adopt. At a time when the United States is urging Egypt, for example, to scrap its emergency law and military courts, this is not consistent."

Drug users support terrorists according the government commercials. I hope they have pancakes at Gitmo. Not only did O not close it. Now he's sending Americans there. Maybe they'll let me bring my pillow.

 

[trichrider]

this abomination disgusts.
how are we to teach our kids what freedom meant/means?

teach em to keep their mouths shut? fly below radar as it were...get in the queue, showers after.

best teach them the pain of deprivation...or sacrifice as this administration dubbs it.

...i know, i know, i have a shitty attitude. forgive.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

this abomination disgusts.
how are we to teach our kids what freedom meant/means?

Abomination could come in the form of being indefinitely detained for attempting to end indefinite detention for everybody. Or it could just be a word if we treat others abominably.

It depends on what kind of freedom you're talking about. Freedom-of-expression and the bill-of-rights (or) the idea of contemporary individualism. One applies in the context of American gub and the other is a conversation.

If they never learn our founding father's compromised their differences and adopted laws, not opinions - they may never make the connection that the idea of freedom isn't necessarily in the eye of the beholder.

teach em to keep their mouths shut? fly below radar as it were...get in the queue, showers after.

Consider telling em that bad policies have bad implications.

best teach them the pain of deprivation...or sacrifice as this administration dubbs it.

If you're gonna teach that, tell em that 'sacrifice' is in reference to economic fairness, not indefinite detainment. Otherwise they might wonder if you're suggesting that indefinite detention is for tax-cheats

...i know, i know, i have a shitty attitude. forgive.

IMO, no reason to apologize. Your kids still have the right to an opinion. Nothing shitty here. Unless the idea of indefinite detention is ok for Muslims but not for us.

 

[GP73LPC]

this abomination disgusts.
how are we to teach our kids what freedom meant/means?

teach em to keep their mouths shut? fly below radar as it were...get in the queue, showers after.

best teach them the pain of deprivation...or sacrifice as this administration dubbs it.

...i know, i know, i have a shitty attitude. forgive.

i agree with you, but i think we have the right to have shitty attitudes...

i've seen this country go from greatness to fucked up in my lifetime and it's only getting worse...

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I remember a poster disparaging the entire nation of Indonesia and paralleling the president over the same aspect - they're Muslims. The same poster complained that this apparent 'Muslim' hadn't legalized weed, despite no other president doing same.

Interesting things come to mind. The president isn't Indonesian. The president isn't Muslim. Lumping it all together through ignorance is the appearance of textbook abnormality, i.e. bigotry. Inquiring of this apparent disparity was called "weak".

I was left with the impression that applicable context was overlooked.

Military given go-ahead to detain US terrorist suspects without trial
Drug users support terrorists according the government commercials. I hope they have pancakes at Gitmo. Not only did O not close it. Now he's sending Americans there. Maybe they'll let me bring my pillow.

I'm tempted to use the w-word. But that would go against the spirit of the idea I may have missed context.

So, for the sake of context....

Truman's, "The buck stops here" always applies. That said, the president has a boss. A plurality of the-boss said no-civilian-trials-for-enemy-combatants, despite the fact that the president, the AG and another substantial plurality (maybe even a majority but inarguably not indemnible) worked to close Gitmo, rendering the idea of indefinite detention moot.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention indemnible, opposition lawmakers (and) the private-contractor prison lobby.

side note - wondering if a particular plurality is looking at the whole picture and whether they consider themselves as connected to the fallout. In other words, the president obviously receives the blame for bad policy yet the president's options were limited to no-options. The compromise-is-weakness crowd won a victory

and set a dangerous precedent.

Never before has such arcane policy been decided through public opinion polls. The fact that an implacable opposition chose such a tactic reminds me of the voter-initiative-process where lawmakers politicize their inaction and subsequently impose implications on the electorate. Even worse in this case, the general public (through opinion-polls for Christ sake.)

"Fool me once.... er uh... won't get fooled again" might have twisted W's tongue but we managed to do it anyway. And "we" has far more implications than the president.

Ironically, Obama's would-be oppressive hand is actually tied behind his back. I'm all for presidents not seizing too much power (like the last guy.)

Yet 'seizing' this issue (and it's fallout) wasn't done by the president. A lock-step opposition, powerful special-interests and indemnible public-opinion seized the issue. Might even be a minority of public opinion.

That's a pretty contextual analysis, at least viewing from the sidelines. Yet I'm left with similar questions (and their potential characterizations of weakness.)

Well now we don't need trials for anyone anymore.

What about the (as of May 2011) 174 prisoners languishing in Gitmo for as long as 9 years? Do they count? Or is this an Americans-only argument?

If O decides you are a "terrorist" the military can now pick you up on American soil and throw in you jail forever without a trail.

I would imagine this irony is most bitter to the implacable should they find themselves indefinitely detained. Might be a sign that seizing policy, (as opposed to legislating democratically) is a bad idea.

The US military is now allowed to operate on American soil and detain whoever they want whenever they want.

Yeah. No option, fly-by-the-seat-of-implacability has considerable drawbacks. Might not be a bad idea to at least imagine potential implications when others promote ill-planned policy.

Welcome to Nazi Germany.

... of implacability.

Welcome to -

Are you open to ending indefinite detentions by closing Gitmo and ending neo-tribunals?

 

[SpasticGramps]

In other words, the president obviously receives the blame for bad policy yet the president's options were limited to no-options. The compromise-is-weakness crowd won a victory

Veto was an option. He said he was going to veto and now he's not. He lied.

and set a dangerous precedent.

A very very dangerous one. So did his predecessor. I'm sure W would have loved to pass this thing, but the red team doing it would have caused much more public outcry. Obama being a nice guy with no options somehow makes it more palatable. Same goes with assassinating American civilians without trail. Guess he ran out of options on that one too.

What about the (as of May 2011) 174 prisoners languishing in Gitmo for as long as 9 years? Do they count? Or is this an Americans-only argument?

The whole thing should have been shut down a long time ago and a non-interventionist policy executed in the Middle East.

Posse Comitatus becoming utterly meaningless is the natural progression of our police state. I'm obviously upset about this, but also fully expected something like this and worse to come in the future.

I'm against any and all people being stuck in government black holes without trial. The Germans were able to rationalize sticking people in ovens for national security. We are working our way there IMO. We allowed the police state to come to fruition. Cheered for the government to protect us from the boogeyman. Now the monster we created will be turned on us. I believe they call they it karma.

 

[dagnabit]

I'm against any and all people being stuck in government black holes without trial. The Germans were able to rationalize sticking people in ovens for national security. We are working our way there IMO. We allowed the police state to come to fruition. Cheered for the government to protect us from the boogeyman. Now the monster we created will be turned on us. I believe they call they it karma.

yup!
DB:
you can be implacable in your defense of tyranny in obusha's black hole
....

your cheerleaderism™ is astonishing.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Veto was an option. He said he was going to veto and now he's not. He lied.
A very very dangerous one. So did his predecessor. I'm sure W would have loved to pass this thing, but the red team doing it would have caused much more public outcry. Obama being a nice guy with no options somehow makes it more palatable. Same goes with assassinating American civilians without trail. Guess he ran out of options on that one too.
The whole thing should have been shut down a long time ago and a non-interventionist policy executed in the Middle East.

Posse Comitatus becoming utterly meaningless is the natural progression of our police state. I'm obviously upset about this, but also fully expected something like this and worse to come in the future.

I'm against any and all people being stuck in government black holes without trial. The Germans were able to rationalize sticking people in ovens for national security. We are working our way there IMO. We allowed the police state to come to fruition. Cheered for the government to protect us from the boogeyman. Now the monster we created will be turned on us. I believe they call they it karma.

I understand you grasp the seriousness and the implications of extraordinary policies. However, some of this appears to be directed at someone who actually attempted to prosecute KSM in NYC. This trial was the only avenue to win the argument over neo tribunals, kill Gitmo and the idea of indefinite detention.

KSM technically falls under the criminal, (i.e. terrorist-support) definition, not enemy-combatant. KSM didn't don an AK or IED and run around killing people. KSM organized not unlike financiers and organizers aren't ECs

Unfortunately, the implacable recognized the implications and argued that KSM is indeed an enemy combatant. Even the back-door, whim-and-a-prayer option was denied.

No-options is no-options. Veto implies law and I'm not sure what law was in position to veto.

IMO, the ones deserving of far more scrutiny (or karma) are the active proponents of neo-tribunals, all the way down to average Joes who picketed the district courthouse, the Muslim community-center, in addition to those who participated in all the pro neo-tribunal opinion polls.

I'm not waving Gitmo as red herring. We're a nation of laws, not a nation where the president says, ("I'm not going to follow the laws that established tribunals.") Until we can change the law, the next president will be faced with the same process and it's potential fallout. And potential is hard reality for 174 prisoners for as long as 9 years - w/o charge.

Assassination implies political-murder. If the act itself is assassination, one might have to consider the victim's political circumstances before categorizing as civilian, let alone American.

Dude moves to (not just) any foreign country but the contemporary hotbed of Al Qaeda activity. Dude renounces American citizenship (i.e. no longer an American) and declares innocent targets on American soil as in-season. Then he goes about his fomenting ways on communications equipment capable of reaching the entire world, including potential dormant individual(s) and or cell(s) in America. IMO civilian is actually criminal and we already know that criminals rights are impinged in many aspects, expressly due to their criminal activity, not unlike law enforcement using deadly force as opposed to risking injury or even death through apprehension.

 

[Useful Idiot]

Another issue is the hold up on the Keystone pipeline.This pipeline would run from Canada all the way to Texas and would deliver 830,000 barrels of oil a DAY!! The state dept. has now decided to wait on making it's final decision until early 2013. Hmmm early 2013??? AFTER the election. See folks.....Obama can't make a recomendation on this before the election. Wanna know why?? It is known for a fact the he is getting campaign contributions from BOTH sides on the issue. How is that fair to US citizens who are getting raped at the pump? Not to mention the amount of jobs this would create.

 

[SpasticGramps]

We're a nation of laws

Agree to disagree.

Reality Check: The Obama administration demanded power to detain U.S. citizens

 

[Hermanthegerman]

The Germans were able to rationalize sticking people in ovens for national security. We are working our way there IMO.

I can´t let it stay so.

1. The Nazis put dead jews in the oven. Not for reasons of national security. They wanted, that the 100000s are gone through the "Schornstein" (draught) why there was not enough space and time, to bury them all and they didn´t wanted evidences.
It´s a rumor that they burned living people, it´s impractical. Shooting or Gas was quicker and more (my god) practical.

2. To make a comparison USA/3. Reich is a awful insult (for a german or a jew). In germany you can´t say what you said. Ok, you killed most of the natives in your country, killed 100000 civilian germans and japs with bombs and the atombomb, but the shoa was an industrial massmurder of 6 Million people, among 1,5 Million Kids !!

A lot of things are wrong in the usa but you can´t write what you wrote.

One of most shocking photos of my lifetime, you see the smoke above gaschamber 5? It´s the smoke of people. They burned the dead people under the open sky, the crematorium had not enough capacity.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Thanks for the link, Gramps.

So the president can't get rid of Gitmo, can't get rid of tribunals. This means he can't prosecute enemy combatants in civilian courts.

Enter (potential) American enemy combatants. What's he supposed to do? The tribunal crowd says enemy combatants receive overseas tribunals.

Where did we determine that potential stop-gap of abuse becomes the blame for the existing law?

 

[SpasticGramps]

1. The Nazis put dead jews in the oven. Not for reasons of national security. They wanted, that the 100000s are gone through the "Schornstein" (draught) why there was not enough space and time, to bury them all and they didn´t wanted evidences.
It´s a rumor that they burned living people, it´s impractical. Shooting or Gas was quicker and more (my god) practical.

I've visited Auschwitz and saw the oven and the showers. Yes my comment was technically historically inaccurate. I didn't go through the explanation that people were gassed first and then disposed of.

2. To make a comparison USA/3. Reich is a awful insult (for a german or a jew). In germany you can´t say what you said. Ok, you killed most of the natives in your country, killed 100000 civilian germans and japs with bombs and the atombomb, but the shoa was an industrial massmurder of 6 Million people, among 1,5 Million Kids !!

Sorry. It's a touchy subject I should not have been so hyperbolic in trying to make my point. The USA is putting in place much of the same police state apparatus as pre-WWII Germany did. My point being that it's easy to sway populations to do some very nasty things.

 

[SpasticGramps]

What's he supposed to do?

Stand up and say something? Stand up and say this will not stand. Take the case to the American people. He's said little to nothing on this.

My personal opinion is it's O's job is to continue with W's policies. Placate his base. Said he gave it a good college try, but in the end continue building the apparatus of our police state. W was an overt tyrant. O is Machiavellian in his smoothness.

 

[ogenko]

"our" government
hahahah thats a good one