An LED light that could replace a 1000W HPS, What's it worth to you?

[Shafto]

Feel free to post your reasons, for your vote.

As mentioned in the thread, if there were such a product, it would also most likely produce better quality, as most of the grow reports I've see done where an experienced HID grower as tried LED, have said the quality is better.

Also take into account HVAC savings, no FLIR signature (thieves can buy a cheap handheld flir gun)

No need to order or pick up bulbs, for those concerned with that.

A step down AC-DC voltage converter used in LED lighting could be any high draw DC device, like a computer. A step up high frequency HID ballast is pretty obvious to a smart meter, for those concerned with that.

An LED array will never burst open with red hot metal and glass as an HID can.

If you're saying $500-$1500 please explain why you think LED is worth barely more than HID? And I'm not talking about products on the market. I'm talking about a hypothetical LED array that could do all the things HID could do quantity wise, and the other advantages would fall into place all on their own.

 

[sneaky101]

I'm thinking of giving it a try after a harvest or two if all goes well. I wasn't interested at all until recently. And I think if I try it I may have to spend about 1800 to replace my 600watt hid. But that is a big investment for me, so still much to think about. And hopefully when I will be ready, the prices will have come down a bit....although I doubt it.

 

[Herborizer]

$1000-$1500 because that is what it is worth to me. For $600 I can get a complete 1000w hid set that will cover a 5x5 with zero concern it will work, penetrate canopy, cover the whole space.

With HID if any component fails, spare parts can be bought from dozens of stores less than 30 min drive.

I don't believe LEDs have much if any less heat, if the unit actually equals whatever performance of its equivelent HID comparitave. Basically, I believe if a LED can truly equal a 1000w HID, this LED will put out almost the same heat.

I also don't believe the efficientcy over time of the LED bulbs. Especially in grow lights, which have been tweaked hard to perform. My guess is that these will be useful for 5 years max before its time to look to purchase another. Of course they should still work, but the light intensity will most likely be 60-80% lower than first use.

I don't care about FLIR. Though I get why some would care.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

I'd love the smaller heat and electrical consumption signature of LED. But the long term savings are countered by the realization that I'm buying a nascent rapidly changing technology. The lights I'd buy now will be obsolete next year. I'll hang on to what I'm using. When it wears out, the available alternatives will be much better than what we have now.

 

[Shafto]

$1000-$1500 because that is what it is worth to me. For $600 I can get a complete 1000w hid set that will cover a 5x5 with zero concern it will work, penetrate canopy, cover the whole space.

With HID if any component fails, spare parts can be bought from dozens of stores less than 30 min drive.

I don't believe LEDs have much if any less heat, if the unit actually equals whatever performance of its equivelent HID comparitave. Basically, I believe if a LED can truly equal a 1000w HID, this LED will put out almost the same heat.

I also don't believe the efficientcy over time of the LED bulbs. Especially in grow lights, which have been tweaked hard to perform. My guess is that these will be useful for 5 years max before its time to look to purchase another. Of course they should still work, but the light intensity will most likely be 60-80% lower than first use.

I don't care about FLIR. Though I get why some would care.

Herborizer, maybe I didn't explain quite properly, but I'm not talking about products on the market. I'm not talking about an LED array "tweaked" as you put it (overdriven and underheatsinked) that will fail in a few thousand hours. As I mentioned in my first post, if built properly, with quality LEDs, an LED array will last at least 50,000 hours.

I'm not talking about an LED array that you would have to worry about the coverage, or penetration.

I'm talking about a hypothetically LED array that could guaranteed cover your whole space, and penetrate just fine. It's completely possible.. it just hasn't been built yet.

Also, I agree with you Herborizer, LEDs do put out nearly as much heat as HPS Watt for Watt. The difference is the IR heat from the HID is much harder to remove from the room, because it heats up all the walls and such, you have to have a lot more air movement to suck the heat off the walls and floor and out of the room. With LED the majority of the heat goes directly into the air, not into an object first, and is therefore much easier to remove from the room with a lot less airflow.

Another main difference is that I'm talking about a 600W LED array here vs. a 1000W HID. Even if they produce the same heat, Watt for Watt, the LED is producing 60% of the HID.

Imagine you've seen side by side grows with the imaginary 600W LED array doing just as well or better than the 1000W HID, is it still only worth $1000-1500 imaginary dollars?

 

[Herborizer]

Imagine you've seen side by side grows with the imaginary 600W LED array doing just as well or better than the 1000W HID, is it still only worth $1000-1500 imaginary dollars?

Yep. Probably closer to the $1500.

 

[guest456mpy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Dupp
Do LED's, even the highest quality ones, have any light penetration? Or are they strictly for SOG style growing?

This is one of those myths that I see parroted far too often, even by MODs and "experts" who have no actual experience growing with high powered LEDs.

I have been growing with high powered LEDs for four years steady now. My plants regularly grow over 3 feet tall from the top of the medium and are thick and full with well developed buds that are equivalent to the HID grown buds that I had produced for the previous 15 or so years. High powered modern LEDs have adequate penetration to grow much taller than mine do as my present lamps were built in 2008. I run 550 watts in a 1m x 1m x 2m space in flowering, 330 watts in veg. A rather old grow is linked in my signature line.

Weezard lives in Hawaii where energy is is expensive. He built an extraordinary lamp that he side by sided with Hawaiian sunlight. The results were that the LEDs were able to match the natural tropic sunlight in terms of cannabis production.

I have personally observed that the energy ratio of LED to HID is more like 3:4 than 1:2. Perpetuation of energy saving myths is probably the thing that holds LED back (aside from initial costs). The costs are already starting to drop as LEDs start to find acceptance in the lighting industry. Agricultural LEDs will find the costs dropping as a trickle down from this overall acceptance, that is why you will never see me advocating purchase of LEDs from a viable financial standpoint. They are not "there" yet.

Yet some of us like to experiment despite the up front costs.

We all have to decide what is best for "me" individually.

In 2008 my up front costs for 550 watts was $2500.00.

 

[GP73LPC]

This is one of those myths that I see parroted far too often, even by MODs and "experts" who have no actual experience growing with high powered LEDs.

I have been growing with high powered LEDs for four years steady now. My plants regularly grow over 3 feet tall from the top of the medium and are thick and full with well developed buds that are equivalent to the HID grown buds that I had produced for the previous 15 or so years. High powered modern LEDs have adequate penetration to grow much taller than mine do as my present lamps were built in 2008. I run 550 watts in a 1m x 1m x 2m space in flowering, 330 watts in veg. A rather old grow is linked in my signature line.

Weezard lives in Hawaii where energy is is expensive. He built an extraordinary lamp that he side by sided with Hawaiian sunlight. The results were that the LEDs were able to match the natural tropic sunlight in terms of cannabis production.

does Weezard have a thread on this? please let me know, i'd love to read that thread...

I have personally observed that the energy ratio of LED to HID is more like 3:4 than 1:2. Perpetuation of energy saving myths is probably the thing that holds LED back (aside from initial costs). The costs are already starting to drop as LEDs start to find acceptance in the lighting industry. Agricultural LEDs will find the costs dropping as a trickle down from this overall acceptance, that is why you will never see me advocating purchase of LEDs from a viable financial standpoint. They are not "there" yet.

Yet some of us like to experiment despite the up front costs.

We all have to decide what is best for "me" individually.

In 2008 my up front costs for 550 watts was $2500.00.

i tend to agree that energy ratio is NOT 1:2 like most LED companies claim. 2:3 or 3:4 is a much better comparison IMHO

 

[guest456mpy]

does Weezard have a thread on this? please let me know, i'd love to read that thread...

This was on another site before we migrated here, some time ago.

If you PM him he might be able to give you a link.

 

[Nader]

$1000-1500 since that's what it costs to very effectively replace an HPS with induction lighting

 

[GP73LPC]

thanks HG

 

[Shafto]

i tend to agree that energy ratio is NOT 1:2 like most LED companies claim. 2:3 or 3:4 is a much better comparison IMHO

I know that generalizations will always exist, but it's really tough to make this comparison.

For instance, an LEDengin 660nm red commonly used in LED grow lights is 14% efficient at converting electricity into photons in the 660nm range.

The Lumileds Rebel 660nm is 44% efficient at converting electricity into photons. (not yet used in any in growing array)

Cheap Chinese LEDs are ??% efficient, there's no reliable data on them, but you can guess it'll be a lot lower than 14%.

A 500W input array of LEDengin 660nm reds will output 70W worth of photons and 430W of heat.

A 500W input array Lumileds Rebel 660nm reds will output 220W worth of photons and 280W of heat.

Generalizations like 1/2, 3/4, are wildly general. Each LED grow light will differ immensely in how efficient it is depending on how it's built.. and that's only the LEDs, there's also electrical efficiency, optical efficiency, and thermal efficiency to take into account. (Nobody does this properly yet)

It is most definitely possible to build an LED array with less than half the wattage of an HID with more light available to the plants.

I think most people are getting off track from my original post, which was to rate a fantasy LED light for what it's worth. Most people seem to be relating to products currently available, but I suppose that's the natural place for the conversation to go.

 

[GP73LPC]

yes, my statement was highly generalized, i agree...