An LED light that could replace a 1000W HPS, What's it worth to you?

[Shafto]

So, say if there was a 600W LED array that could replace your 1000W HPS in terms of yield. (Quality will probably be higher with LEDs)

What would you pay for one?



Generally a 1000W digital with reflector and a cheapo bulb will run around $500-600, and use about 1060W due the the ballast losses.

Take into account 2 cheapo bulb changes a year means about $100 a year in bulbs. Power use for the 1000W over a year at 12 hours a day @ $0.10 / kWh would be $465, so about $565 minimum to run a 1000W HPS. Up to about $800 a year with more expensive bulbs and power @ $0.13 / kWh.

A 600W LED array would cost $263 per year @ $0.10 / kWh and $341 @ $0.13 / kWh.

This makes for a savings of $302 - $459 per year in the LED array alone, not to mention all the HVAC savings.

If the LED array was built properly and lasted for 50,000 hours, that means 11.5 years of use @ 12hours per day. This would mean $3474 - $5278 in savings over the lifetime of the LED array (minus the difference in cost between the $600 HPS setup and the LED array). Multiply that by 10, 20, 30, or 200 lights, and you've got some serious savings.

So, what would you pay for this device if it existed?

 

[tenthirty]

Not even close. Granted MrX is a stellar grower, but over a lb on 280w wow!!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=215147

 

[rives]

It would be very interesting to see what you are kicking around here. I would be very concerned about any LED fixture that purported to replace a 1000 watt lamp simply because of the form factor. It seems to me that the only effective way to get good edge-to-edge coverage over equivalent areas is to use multiple lower-wattage units, probably in the 150-180 watt range. I've toyed with the idea of doing a 4x4 tent with 4 Lumigrow ES-165's for this reason.

 

[GP73LPC]

check my LED Grams per Watt and LED Retailers thread for more info on this subject...

but to answer the OP's question and considering LED's are also less likely to be detected by FLIR due to lack of IR, to me it's priceless.

 

[supermanlives]

absolutely nothing till the prices come down

 

[self]

could there be a 1000-1500$ category?
thats where I would put my vote.
I would hope to be able to buy something to replace my 600w for 700-1000$

 

[Shafto]

I didn't include a $1000-1500 category because it's not realistic any time soon.

If it's $2500 then it pays for itself in 5 years in lighting cost alone. Factor in the HVAC for a sealed room and you're down to about 3 years. If you're making a choice between buying a new HID setup with reflector and electronic ballast, then subtract that $600 and it's only 2 years to pay for itself.

So after a 2 year short investment period, you're basically getting paid back $300-600 per light per year.

It really only makes sense.. even if it were $3500, but that sticker price is likely to drive away a lot of people who aren't long term thinkers.

 

[Shafto]

check my LED Grams per Watt and LED Retailers thread for more info on this subject...

but to answer the OP's question and considering LED's are also less likely to be detected by FLIR due to lack of IR, to me it's priceless.

Thanks GP73LPC,

I've seen your LED threads, they look quite helpful for those looking to buy an LED array.

Personally I wouldn't buy any LED array on the market at the moment. Most of them, even the "good" expensive ones are made like crap.

You can tell that HID light manufacturers are making them (and know nothing about them), because they stamp out a steel enclosure like they would a reflector, add some fans and attach a MCPCB populated with raw LEDs (no optics). Although they make their products look professional, they are extremely amateur in design. Very flawed.

A proper LED array will have no fans, none will be needed if the array is thermally engineered correctly.

So far the only LED growing array I've seen designed properly is the one Mr.X uses, the EVO or whatever it's called. It uses high quality CREE LEDs on an extruded aluminum heatsink, no fans, and uses optics on the LEDs to properly direct the light.

One problem with the evo array is that it uses all 630nm red, which misses the main absorption peak of 660nm.

This may have been the way to go at the time as the 630nm reds by CREE were much more efficient than the 660nm reds by LEDengin, however Philips lumileds has just released a deep red 660nm rebel with more efficiency than the 630nm reds. These are now the very best LEDs available to put into an array for flowering. LEDengin 660nm are about 14% efficient, CREE 630nm are about 35%, and the new 660nm rebel reds are up to 44%.

If the EVO array used the 660nm rebels in place of the 630nm reds it would target a better spectral absorption of the plant, and put out more radiometric power in that range. Having both 630nm and 660nm at about a three 660 to one 630 ratio would be best.

Not all LED watts are equal... you have to look into the actual light output (not power input) in watts, not lumens.

The other problem with the EVO array is that I can see from pictures that it's driver is a voltage regulator, and not a current regulator. This is bad. LEDs run on current, not voltage. Maybe the AC-DC voltage regulator feeds the 12V to DC-DC constant current regulators down the line before it hits the LEDs (hopefully) but this is inefficient, stacking driver losses. It makes the most sense to use an AC-DC constant current source straight to the LEDs.

 

[self]

I didn't include a $1000-1500 category because it's not realistic any time soon.

If it's $2500 then it pays for itself in 5 years in lighting cost alone. Factor in the HVAC for a sealed room and you're down to about 3 years. If you're making a choice between buying a new HID setup with reflector and electronic ballast, then subtract that $600 and it's only 2 years to pay for itself.

So after a 2 year short investment period, you're basically getting paid back $300-600 per light per year.

It really only makes sense.. even if it were $3500, but that sticker price is likely to drive away a lot of people who aren't long term thinkers.

yeah, I totally get it, I'm just saying that anything above 1000$ is probably going to turn off everyone except commercial growers, medical growers, and the occasional serious hobbyiest who also happens to take the long view on economic terms.
especially when you take into account the ever present possibility of it getting seized, even if you are a "legal grower", i think most everyone else will balk at the initial price, even if it pays for it self within a year. most growers want to be sure they can pay off their equipment and make a profit with their first crop, which gets increasingly hard if you're shelling out 2gs per light.
with all that said, I fully plan on buying an led array in the next year or so, when quality dips under 1000$.

 

[PetFlora]

< $500. Why?

Well LED just ain't all that, though it is at least getting more user friendly. One mfg has field replaceable power transformers and bulbs. But there is a science of nature that no one (not HPS/HID, not Plasma, and not LED...) making artificial lights has addressed. Commerical outdoor farmers plant in the spring when there is 20% more blue light than red. They harvest during the opposite, when red is 20% greater.

If you use a HO T5 you can play nature god and select the appropriate bulb compliment to max your stage of grow with the twist of the wrist. The aquarium industry makes a wide variety of HO bulbs very similar to LED PAR ranges. They were developed for growing coral and sea plants.

One Quantum Bad Boy 8 bulb < $300. It provides 432 watts. An assortment of 10 aquarium bulbs < $200. It covers > 2 X 4 area for ~ $500.

I was considering posting current photos here, but instead...

If interested to see aquarium bulbs in action, check out my journal. I am now 4 weeks into flower. New pics were posted yesterday

 

[rives]

But there is a science of nature that no one (not HPS/HID, not Plasma, and not LED...) making artificial lights has addressed.

I have to disagree here, PetFlora. My Lumigrow ES330 allows you to adjust the red and blue levels to whatever ratio you like.

 

[Phaeton]

Yeah, I am running 24 aquarium bulbs and 12 lizard lights. Close to $800 just for the bulbs. Then there is the 11 discharge lights, five of them over $100 each. Would LED be cheaper at this point, considering bulb replacement?
I think they would, but I am comfortable with what I use and the results are predictable.
Its the learning curve and reconstruction of the budroom that keeps LED's away, not the price. I have a 250,000 lumen perpetual grow, I don't really care what the lights cost, nor the electricity.

 

[rives]

Phaeton, with an inventory like that, I guarantee you that you will wind up with LED's at some point. It sounds as though you are like me - a chronic experimenter that eventually decides to range out from the status quo to try something new after having sworn it off time and again!

 

[F. Dupp]

Do LED's, even the highest quality ones, have any light penetration? Or are they strictly for SOG style growing?

 

[rives]

Do LED's, even the highest quality ones, have any light penetration? Or are they strictly for SOG style growing?

The Lumigrow ES330 is the only commercial unit that I have experience with, and it has plenty of penetration. I normally grow scrog style, and just finished a run where I found a branch in the back that I didn't even know was there. It was about 3" under the screen, beneath a dense canopy, and was still about 4" long and 1-1/4" in diameter. I made one run on some bushes that were about 3' tall, and it worked great.

Check out SOTF420's albums - he grows Sweet Tooth bushes with gigantic buds, pulling 1+ lb under two of the ES330's if I recall correctly.

 

[Brother Bear]

absolutely nothing till the prices come down

This, and once they came down in price i still wouldn't buy them

 

[smokefrogg]

Check out SOTF420's albums - he grows Sweet Tooth bushes with gigantic buds, pulling 1+ lb under two of the ES330's if I recall correctly.

his grows are very impressive, he does have t5 side lighting though as well...not trying to nitpick, but i feel it's relevant to mention

 

[rives]

This, and once they came down in price i still wouldn't buy them

And why would that be?

 

[GP73LPC]

Do LED's, even the highest quality ones, have any light penetration? Or are they strictly for SOG style growing?

check out my LED GROWS over 1 LB thread...

link in my sig.

 

[Herborizer]

$1000-$1500.