The S1 Showcase

[bench warmer]

I have only tried growing out one S1.
Jojorizo's Trainwreck.
It was exactly as described & I'd gladly grow more of them out.

 

[Mt Toaker]

I've been reading in "Methods of plant breeding" by Herbert Kendall Hayes that selfing plants will significantly reduce yield and vigor in later generations. He hasn't said anything specific on dioecious plants yet from what I've read.

 

[Noobian]

The one time I tried growing an S1 it hermied worse than anything I have ever seen. It was a blue satellite 2.2 S1 I started on 12/12 from seed and it was doing pretty good until about week 3 or 4 of the actual flowering and it just started making the biggest nuts on the bottom branches all while having a huge dense cola bud up top. I chucked her the day I saw all those balls down there and that was the last time I tried growing an S1.

 

[RandyCalifornia]

Noobian, starting seed from 12/12, especially polyhybrid stresses plants could've been cause of hermi.

 

[BlueGrassToker]

Anecdotal growing experiences with a single cultivar really don't tell us anything about the subject at hand.
If you grew a selfed, or reversed, seed that showed interesex, there are just too many other variables involved to be able to tie it to how the seed was propagated.
This holds completely true even for those who think their growing style and environment are perfect....

Granted a first generation selfed seed will lack the genetic material of it's reversed half sister's seeds, but it will be generations down the road before you will see depression or loss of vigor. Same sort of depression can happen with regular M/F breeding if inbred for generations.

 

[big twinn]

very interesting. Looking forward to popping some...hopefully mine wont hermi.

 

[CalcioErba2004]

Im for them...birds need to eat something.

 

[Noobian]

Noobian, starting seed from 12/12, especially polyhybrid stresses plants could've been cause of hermi.

Agreed I'm pretty sure that was the cause too, but I still would not try growing those seeds again even on a regular cycle. It just wasn't worth all the time and effort not to mention wasted space. Also that strain has a lot of blueberry in it which is composed of the Thai, so there was a bigger chance for it to do what it ended up doing. No worries I might give it a try again one day if I get bored

 

[VerdantGreen]

as soon as anything goes wrong with an S1 grow then the grower will usually blame the fact that it was a fem seed - never mind that they were growing notoriously hermi-prone genetics or their environment was out of wack.
not to be a dick either - but often n00b growers will grow fem seeds as their first few grows when their experience is lacking - and again blame the fems for anything that goes wrong.
herms on cannabis come with the territory, ive had about the same rate of herm tendencies with regular seeds as i have with fems - luckily not very often for me

VG

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

as soon as anything goes wrong with an S1 grow then the grower will usually blame the fact that it was a fem seed - never mind that they were growing notoriously hermi-prone genetics or their environment was out of wack.
not to be a dick either - but often n00b growers will grow fem seeds as their first few grows when their experience is lacking - and again blame the fems for anything that goes wrong.
herms on cannabis come with the territory, ive had about the same rate of herm tendencies with regular seeds as i have with fems - luckily not very often for me

VG

QFT.

In 5 years here growing outdoors, running near 100 packs of different strains, I have only seen one proper Hermie, he/she came from a "normal" M/F pack from a respected underground breeder.

Stressed indoors with heat, I see the odd infertile banana on a couple of strains, worst offender was again [another] respected breeder's [non Fem] Breeding cut, I hardly had any problem with S1's running alongside.

 

[MedUser420]

Regardless of how they perform, they're a gene pool destroyer.

NONSENSE!!!! LOL in what way? A feminized plant and a regular plant are indistinguishable. If you feminize a plant with deleterious recessive traits then maybe, but thats true for all plants.

 

[MedUser420]

but remember that you can make that line more sensitive to hermi if you keep breeding it to itself multiple generations.

Thats rubbish. Only if the feminized plant has hermie tendencies in its genes will it do that. Feminizing does not make hermies.

 

[MedUser420]

If we are talking about breeding a plant back to itself I can definitely see problems arising after a few generations if the parent plant breed true, because you are already breeding a plant with a constricted gene pool. You would get what you get with any extreme inbreeding I would think.
Now if it was a hybridized plant, or poly hybridized, like clone only plants, which have such a huge genetic diversity, you would get lesser problems, but the results would probably be a huge number of pheno's. Some like the parents perhaps, some better or worse.
We need some one like Chimera to come in on this subject. I find the whole subject facinating, thanks for starting the thread Morphot

The only time you have a problem with inbreeding is when the plant has recessive deleterious traits. If not you can inbreed til the cows come home and not have any problems.

You are correct hybrids usually have heterozygous alleles. Therefore more phenos would pop out. If you self-ed a plant with heterozygous trait for smell, lets assign it Ss. Dominant (S) being fruity and recessive (s) for skunky. You'd have 25% of the progeny is fruity (dominant, homozygous SS), 50% of the progeny is fruity heterozygous (Ss) with dominant trait for fruity (S) and recessive trait for skunky (s) and 25% of the progeny is skunky (recessive ss). Of the 50% heterozygous (Ss) sometimes instead of being fruity, there's is a mixture of fruity and skunky due to incomplete dominance. Picture a red rose crossed to a white rose, sometimes you will get pink roses. Hope this makes sense..

 

[circadian clock]

anybody know anything about male S1's?

 

[LouDog420]

The only time you have a problem with inbreeding is when the plant has recessive deleterious traits. If not you can inbreed til the cows come home and not have any problems.

You are correct hybrids usually have heterozygous alleles. Therefore more phenos would pop out. If you self-ed a plant with heterozygous trait for smell, lets assign it Ss. Dominant (S) being fruity and recessive (s) for skunky. You'd have 25% of the progeny is fruity (dominant, homozygous SS), 50% of the progeny is fruity heterozygous (Ss) with dominant trait for fruity (S) and recessive trait for skunky (s) and 25% of the progeny is skunky (recessive ss). Of the 50% heterozygous (Ss) sometimes instead of being fruity, there's is a mixture of fruity and skunky due to incomplete dominance. Picture a red rose crossed to a white rose, sometimes you will get pink roses. Hope this makes sense..

I disagree... Any plant, true breeding, landrace, hybrid, polyhbrid, what have you, will have recessive alleles and ultimately recessive traits that can be unlocked. Successive inbreeding (as you have taken it to the extreme in your example of till the cows come home ) will cause unexpected phenotypes and traits to pop up in any line assuming a small gene pool is used.

Your punnet square math is solid, but this assumes your traits are 1-1... Meaning for every trait, there is a gene with a set of alleles that directly controls its expression. This is often not the case, in fact, a single gene will often influence multiple traits, and a single trait will be influenced by multiple genes

Heterozygous for smell doesn't quite exist... If only it were that easy

Now we throw in the possibilities of recombination, crossing over, mutations, and genetic selection, and you are very likely to end up with some unintended consequences by successively inbreeding a small population (in this case, S1 crosses and especially selfed plants)...



And just to reiterate, I'm not against S1s, they can be a valuable tool for certain occasions, I just haven't found one personally yet as I like to make F2s or crosses right away

In fact, I'm rocking the super lemon haze now after hearing good things... muahaha. My brain's receptors can't tell the difference between the S1s and not

 

[MedUser420]

I disagree... Any plant, true breeding, landrace, hybrid, polyhbrid, what have you, will have recessive alleles and ultimately recessive traits that can be unlocked. Successive inbreeding (as you have taken it to the extreme in your example of till the cows come home ) will cause unexpected phenotypes and traits to pop up in any line assuming a small gene pool is used.

Your punnet square math is solid, but this assumes your traits are 1-1... Meaning for every trait, there is a gene with a set of alleles that directly controls its expression. This is often not the case, in fact, a single gene will often influence multiple traits, and a single trait will be influenced by multiple genes

Heterozygous for smell doesn't quite exist... If only it were that easy

Now we throw in the possibilities of recombination, crossing over, mutations, and genetic selection, and you are very likely to end up with some unintended consequences by successively inbreeding a small population (in this case, S1 crosses and especially selfed plants)...



And just to reiterate, I'm not against S1s, they can be a valuable tool for certain occasions, I just haven't found one personally yet as I like to make F2s or crosses right away

In fact, I'm rocking the super lemon haze now after hearing good things... muahaha. My brain's receptors can't tell the difference between the S1s and not

Of course all plants have recessive traits. The question is which recessive traits. If the recessive trait isnt deleterious, then I see no horrible consequences and you can inbreed til the cows come home. Granted that you pick a plant with the genotype you need. If you self a plant with deleterious recessive traits then of course you will have problems, especially if you select the wrong progeny. Its all in the SELECTION PROCESS of the breeder.

I am going to assume that the trait/phenotype isnt multigenic, until I work with the plant otherwise it causes 1 hellva headache. Til you work with a plant you just dont know if its 1-1 or multigenic.

Not sure what you mean smell isn't heterozygous. All traits/phenotypes have a genotype, agree? Be that they are homozygous, heterozygous or recessive.

How do you F2 S1s? Outcross then make F1s, then F2s? You cant go from S1s to F2s. S2s is that what you mean? Sorry must be too high, dont understand what youre trying to say! lol

 

[LouDog420]

Of course all plants have recessive traits. The question is which recessive traits. If the recessive trait isnt deleterious, then I see no horrible consequences and you can inbreed til the cows come home. Granted that you pick a plant with the genotype you need. If you self a plant with deleterious recessive traits then of course you will have problems, especially if you select the wrong progeny.

I am going to assume the the phenotype isnt multigenic, until I work with the plant otherwise it causes 1 hellva headache.

You seem to be blending phenotype and genotype a bit. My point was, while recessive traits may not be visible in the selected plants, there will be deleterious genes in any line that aren't expressed (hidden in the genotype).. Not to mention, mutation during reproduction, always has the possibility to create deleterious alleles. Inbreeding with a small population and especially selfing (using the exact same genetic makeup) will cause unexpected changes and variations to eventually pop up that were never seen with the parent plant even with good selection. Also known as inbreeding depression. With S1s, IMO it is much harder to get a large diverse enough gene pool to maintain a stable line.

Not sure what you mean smelll isnt heterozygous. Thats a vast generalization. All traits have a genotype, agree? Be that they are homozygous, heterozygous or recessive.

In the post I quoted of yours you gave an example where you said smell was heterozygous, it was a bit of busting your chops as I thought the same thing when I read it

How do you F2 S1s?

F2s or crosses, I believe was what I typed If you find out how to F2 an S1, let me know!!