12 x 8 Basement, Vertical barebulbs

[michmedclones]

Hey guys, setting up a basement with a smaller grow for some medical patients in MI. They want to go barebulb vertical, 4000w, and I'm new to that so I need some help from the masters. They want to run them bare with honeywell fans underneath taking heat up, they have a 340cfm panasonic whisperline as well as a 8" 747cfm vortex inline hooked up to a scrubber which will be run at about half speed, I figured 7-800 cfm would be more then enough combine to change the air every 3 minutes. Anyways I'm not sure about the heat, they want to try to skip ac by having a high exchange rate, which I suggested they tried to change the air every two minutes IMO. I have a few different ideas on how to set it up but I want to know if A) its even possible to do, and B) if theres anything I'm missing thats important, BHO erases my memory and I tend to figure out problems when they arise but since its not my room I don't want to leave them in the dark. I was hoping that the honeywells would take the majority of the heat up to the cieling, I was going to set up the whisperline right in the middle blowing twords the vortex, and then the 8" vortex in the corner below the dryer vent that will be used for the exhaust, changing it every two minutes might help but again, I don't know. I wanted to run a 6" duct fan for a somewhat passive intake from outside that still keeps the negative pressure maintained. (Were in MI so its getting cold so that will help with temps, they could afford A/C after a good harvest or two in the summer if needed) I'll stop rambeling, I think I've given enough info, if I forgot something let me know but if anyone has any experience

Thanks again guys you've always been helpful

 

[gingerale]

Two 8" Vortex fans will be needed for that size space in MI, to keep it cool without A/C in summer. One fan blowing air in, one evacuating. In winter one Vortex will be plenty, evacuating. Do NOT put a fan on the floor pointing up at the bulb. I see this all the time and it is wrong. Doing it this way causes hot air to be spread out and blown all around the room. The ideal way is to place the Vortec inlet just above the lamps, with active/passive cold air inlets at the room perimeter. Cool air will flow from the perimeter, through the plants, to the bulb, where it is heated before being sucked into the fan inlet, taking the heat right out of the room.

 

[bobblehead]

Hey guys, setting up a basement with a smaller grow for some medical patients in MI. They want to go barebulb vertical, 4000w, and I'm new to that so I need some help from the masters. They want to run them bare with honeywell fans underneath taking heat up, they have a 340cfm panasonic whisperline as well as a 8" 747cfm vortex inline hooked up to a scrubber which will be run at about half speed, I figured 7-800 cfm would be more then enough combine to change the air every 3 minutes. Anyways I'm not sure about the heat, they want to try to skip ac by having a high exchange rate, which I suggested they tried to change the air every two minutes IMO. I have a few different ideas on how to set it up but I want to know if A) its even possible to do, and B) if theres anything I'm missing thats important, BHO erases my memory and I tend to figure out problems when they arise but since its not my room I don't want to leave them in the dark. I was hoping that the honeywells would take the majority of the heat up to the cieling, I was going to set up the whisperline right in the middle blowing twords the vortex, and then the 8" vortex in the corner below the dryer vent that will be used for the exhaust, changing it every two minutes might help but again, I don't know. I wanted to run a 6" duct fan for a somewhat passive intake from outside that still keeps the negative pressure maintained. (Were in MI so its getting cold so that will help with temps, they could afford A/C after a good harvest or two in the summer if needed) I'll stop rambeling, I think I've given enough info, if I forgot something let me know but if anyone has any experience

Thanks again guys you've always been helpful

I don't see anything about the dimensions of the grow space or plant numbers... w/o that all I'm gonna tell ya is that you want air exchange at least 2x a minute, and you bet in the summer you're gonna have to run AC... Just running 4K I would have it on hand right now, b/c the ground isn't frozen and it still warms up during the day. If they can't afford the AC, then they can't afford to grow with 4k in light.



gingerale- I have a hygrometer at the bottom and the top of my room, and the bottom of the room is 3F cooler than the top... with extraction at the top of my room... So it would seem that I'm doing ok with fans under my lamps. Thanks anyway. The key is to not have them blasting air up, but pushing it gently...

 

[michmedclones]

Dimensions are 12 x 8 thats in the title tho I should had added it below, as for plant count its going to be around 24 give or take a few from time to time run on a perpetual schedule. For the winter were going to go with no A/C so we may not be able to turn on all 4 lights but I can mess with light movers and cool tubes if I have to just trying to get the most out of their lights, spend the least on equipment, and obviously get them some high quality medication

I appreciate the answers already

 

[Mister_D]

Listen to bobble. He's being taught by the best, and is already a pretty accomplished grower himself. Forget the speed controler on the vortex, more air exchange FTW. I consider a 1x per min to be the bare minimum for a productive room. Yes you can control temps with less, if it's cold enough outside, but that fucks with proper co2 exchange . Keep the honeywells, they work period. Just be sure to use the lowest speed setting. As said above you only want a gentle push to get the heat up and into the suction path of the exhaust. Pushing too hard will cause the hot air to hit the ceiling and disperse into your room before the exhaust removes it. Add reflective material to all the walls and if possible the ceiling also. This isn't necessary, but it does help max out usable light. Gonna need more details if you want more detailed advice. I ran 4800w of 600s in 12x20 without ac, and trust me you are going to need alot more than a single 8" vortex to pull off 4000w. I used 1000cfm intake and 1000cfm exhaust, and that was barely enough in the dead of winter (< 30 deg F). Just to give you an idea.

 

[bobblehead]

Dimensions are 12 x 8 thats in the title tho I should had added it below, as for plant count its going to be around 24 give or take a few from time to time run on a perpetual schedule. For the winter were going to go with no A/C so we may not be able to turn on all 4 lights but I can mess with light movers and cool tubes if I have to just trying to get the most out of their lights, spend the least on equipment, and obviously get them some high quality medication

I appreciate the answers already

My bad, I thought the 12x8 was actual basement dimensions... Like u just had a small basement. Lol

Anyway I wouldn't use that whole space for only 4k... Something more like 12x6.5.

You might get away w/o a/c for the winter... But buy one before spring. Start off with 2k in light, get a return on your investment, and then expand... Or flip/flop the 2k for a total of 4k running on opposite schedules.

 

[megayields]

I can ad nothing...you are being schooled by the best peeps in the very section...I only wish you good luck and may all your harvests be 1+GPW!

 

[wisco61]

How are they planning on growing the plants? If they have high ceilings stacking the lights with a stadium or some kind of racking system would work. If they have low ceilings, I would check out Lazyman's headbanger thread and think about some weed donuts.

 

[Shcrews]

You should run 3k, bulbs 3ft apart.

no need for 4000 watts in a 12ft long stadium. Less heat that way too.Just my experience.
Good luck

 

[michmedclones]

Awesome guys I really appreciate the responses. I know bobble is a big name and I value your opinion as well as everyone else. The overall size is 12 x 8 but with spacing and all that I'd bet the footprint of plants is closer to 10x6 with a few side brances poking out. They are going to ran in coco hempys so I'll be going with the donuts or something very close. This grow has to be nearly silent for where they live (condo) so thats why I was going to run the vortex on a controller to keep the noise down, I also have a whisperline for them to install the 340cfm one, and a 4" inline to help with the intake if I need it but I wanted to try a duct fan first, I'm sure there will be a lot of trial and error with exact set up but I want to be able to atleast have it set up and running for them and adjust as we see how the envirment changes. So you guys know all the ballasts and equipment will be kept out of the room so the temp of the room before the lights is going to be pretty low based on it being in the basement. Whats everyones opinion of white vs reflective coating on the walls? I was going to do a high gloss white paint floor to cieling, I've used the bubble reflective wrap before, it was nice and did its job but it kept ALL of the heat in making my temps very high, I feel like the white doesn't radiate the heat as much as the reflective material does but I've been wrong plenty of times before. I like the idea of starting with two, since its starting from scratch I'll be able to record the ambient temp of the room with lights off, then turn 1 or 2 1000s on and then see the temp with them on, calculate how much heat is being added, and then try a few different ways to get the heat out. Good tip on the honeywells as well, I was planning on cranking them on and letting them go but it makes sense the exhaust has to catch up and get everything out orelse it will be trapped. I'm really hoping using a passive intake with the colder temps outside with an increased air exchange rate can keep the temps down, after a few successful harvests they'll be able to spare a few grand get a nice A/C unit and be good to go. Its all a building process, I appreciate the help I've never gone bare bulb vert before but I'm convinced it give the best yields and you're using all of the lumens that your lamps are putting out

Thanks again keep em comin I can never learn too much

 

[Shcrews]

i expect the heat from bare bulbs will be less of an issue than you think. floor fans below the bulbs pointing up, vortex for exhaust near the ceiling. passive intake. probably wont even need an AC. i think 2k will be too little for a 10-12 ft stadium. 4k too much. however you said you are setting up donuts?

I ran stadiums at 3 different locations. my current one is an upstairs apartment with plenty of neighbors, no issues with noise so dont worry about that.. just make sure you control smell.

and reflectix, mylar, or reflective aluminum for the walls. flat white paint also works, there is a thread on it somewhere on here by a pro painter. or panda plastic, but i like shiny shit.

 

[bobblehead]

Shiny shit ftw!


More concerning is where are they venting the heat to living in a condo? Cause it's challenging... Hopefully they have attic access from the basement... And then there's how many amps the service is...

 

[michmedclones]

They are venting the heat out the back of the condo, they are set up in little pods of 6-8 units each, luckily theirs has the back facing the woods so its all going to go out the back wall through a dryer vent, and they have 150a service, 30a for the lights and 20a for the fans etc.

I've never set up a stadium grow and to be honest I'm not real sure about doing it that way, I rather do donuts around the lights I was also thinking about setting up 2 rings of chainlink, one 18" in diameter to cover the bulb and then another one between 24" and 30" to use as a vertical screen but again I'm not sure. I'm used to bubble buckets and horizontal hoods but after reading these threads they want to go with the vertical bare bulb and to be fully honest I'm somewhat using them as an example as to how I want to change my flower as long as it produces obviously

Thanks again to everyone who has taken their time to answer this thread its been a huge help

 

[bobblehead]

dryer vents are 3-4"... lol... good luck. I thought I would use a dryer vent too... You're gonna need a bigger hole.

 

[michmedclones]

Oh no I know, I wanted to use an A/C register so the exhaust 8" ducting can go into that, and then install one or two dryer vents right inside the rectangular opening to have the air go out that way, I know it sounds some what ghetto rigged but I'm confident its going to work unless someone has tried that and it didnt work?

Just found this one too, its 6" http://www.lowes.com/pd_89145-835-140056774001_0__?productId=3122793&Ntt=dryer+vent&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Ddryer%2Bvent&facetInfo=

 

[michmedclones]

Any suggestions on what I could use opposed to them bobble? I'm assuming you wanted to use it since the window wouldn't be stealth, did you find an alternative? If need be well use the window and install a shed above the window to conceal the exhaust but I really don't want to do that if we don't have to

 

[bobblehead]

2 of those 6" vents should do the job... I assumed it was a rental and u couldn't do any modifications... Otherwise I would hope you have attic access from the basement. I've seen condos that have attic access above the stairs going down to the basement. In that instance, I would duct exhaust to the attic, and pull in cold air from the dryer vents... Cause otherwise ur sucking hot air from the condo and blowing it outside, and it's gonna make for a cold winter.

 

[gingerale]

LOL ok. Bobblehead I would love to hear your explanation as to why a 3*F difference between floor and ceiling temps in your grow means that your cooling is optimal. That just means temps are even. It does NOT mean you are getting the most cooling possible out of your fan. Funny because as an expert on airflow I would say the even temps in your grow proves my point. Your fan is doing nothing more than spreading heat throughout the grow. This might even out the temps some but it also means MORE overall heat is trapped in the grow, thus MORE airflow is needed to reduce heat in the room to an acceptable level.

You think you understand airflow? How many race cars are out there with cylinder heads ported by you? Airflow is very important there and you would be amazed at what effect a small, seemingly insignificant change can have on overall airflow. The same principles scale up and apply equally to a grow-sized airflow problem. I know how air flows and behaves bro....and pointing a fan AT your bulb is, again, the WRONG way to cool it. The only time this would be a good idea, is if you're in a warehouse with a high ceiling, i.e. a situation where you are not immediately trying to collect that heat and duct/route it somewhere. Not saying a grow set up your way won't WORK..it will WORK, but it is NOT the most efficient or ideal way or doing things.

Lesson in airflow: Air has mass. It has velocity, momentum, direction. It's heavy and doesn't want to change direction easily. Every time it is forced to change direction, speed up, or slow down, energy is lost. When you create a turbulent flow environment with air blowing every which direction, as one sees recommended ALL the time by so called experts, this REDUCES overall airflow through your growroom and REDUCES cooling. This is because kinetic energy is absorbed by all the air molecules interfering and colliding together instead of flowing smoothly in the same direction. Heat is spread out everywhere instead of routed and directed to where it needs to go (i.e. OUT of the grow.) Oscillating fans = BAD. Fans blowing AT bulbs = BAD.

I know this runs counter to everything you have read or heard about growing pot, but it's the truth guys. ANY fan creates a turbulent flow at its outlet, unless you install some kind of flow diffuser to straighten it out. Fan INLETs on the other hand are almost always laminar, which means smooth, steady, predictable flow. so if you let the fan inlet do the work of generating airflow, you are generating laminar flow and not turbulence. When you set up your grow so that you have a nice smooth laminar flow throughout the room, with air flowing straight from point A to point B instead of bouncing all over the place, less energy (airflow velocity, momentum) is lost in turbulence. This greatly increases overall airflow, thus overall cooling potential, and you burn/waste less electricity trying to keep it cool.

Everyone feel free to follow whosever advice you'd like! Maybe you'd like to go with Bobblehead's since he's the "big name" (lots of posts, easy to get along with, has nice grow pics posted up) and thus this CLEARLY means he knows all the science and theory behind what he's doing. Or you can think things through and understand that what I'm saying makes sense.. then you can try it my way and be amazed that yes indeed you CAN in fact cool/ventilate a 4k grow with a SINGLE vortex fan, in the winter in Michigan...and with two fans you can pull it off in the summer if you run the day cycle at night. I'm in Michigan guys, and running a 4K grow right now...in the exact same size space...with two 8" Vortex fans...I think I would have a clue about this! But again...do what you want.

 

[gingerale]

And as for the people saying not to run 4K in that "small" of a space....B.S. run the four lights in a SQUARE configuration (the one I always post about on here recommending, and catch flack about because few people understand it.) Four lights in an equally spaced square, plants around the perimeter, bulbs 3-4 ft off the ground with more plants underneath. This is like stadium growing but even MORE efficient, with even lighting for all plants. For bonus points take big piece of square plywood, paint it white to make a "ceiling"/platform to mount the four bulbs on. This will act as a reflector to keep light from escaping upwards past your plants and thus going to waste. It will also allow you to raise your perimeter plants higher (so that the top of the plant is JUST below the reflector) thus ensuring maximum light exposure for each plant and ZERO stretch. You can then cut a hole in the center of the board, and put your 8" duct inlet there for the ventilation fan. Cool air inlets should be around the perimeter at the bottom, one or multiple ducts, with one Vortex blowing into the room if you have two fans. In this configuration hot air will NEVER be blown or flow towards the plants--it's drawn directly into the nearby duct inlet and evacuated with a minimum of heat transfer to the room.

This setup is tested and proven, and is more efficient than many setups I see here.

Haters do your thing....can't wait to read all the replies telling me how wrong I am!

 

[Shcrews]

Haters do your thing....can't wait to read all the replies telling me how wrong I am!

while there is nothing wrong with the setup you suggested, which if i understand correctly sounds very similar to what RedSpaghetti has been doing on here for a while now, your attitude leaves much to be desired.

ventilation of a small stadium is not rocket science. i'm glad you found a setup that you like, maybe if i have time i will look through your threads and see if i can glean some wisdom.

remember there are many ways to skin a cat.. SelfHemployed proved that 4k is unnecessary in a 12 foot stadium when he pulled over 1 GWP with 2k in a 8ft stadium