jungliedunglies
Member
If I'm understanding right, people are having problems with root rot as a result of what is theorized to be the rockwool holding too much water........no ground to debate yay or nay on my end, but I am curious about something here.
I just planted my first couple seeds in RW, and innoculated the cube itself with Great White. Ardviously, Trichoderma are thought to be helpful in combating such issues. Anybody who has had problems tried this approach? I'm sure you probably have tried something along those lines, just wondering if it was to no avail.
I just planted my first couple seeds in RW, and innoculated the cube itself with Great White. Ardviously, Trichoderma are thought to be helpful in combating such issues. Anybody who has had problems tried this approach? I'm sure you probably have tried something along those lines, just wondering if it was to no avail.
T
TREE KING
im using these jiffy coco cubes and cant sing their praises enough, the lateral root growth is awesome stoped using rockwall cos it held to much water and in the summer that wasnt good
storm where can i buy these at in the u.s? the only websites i see are in the u.k
junglie, i used oregonism xl and hygrozyme, they didnt seem to do anything for me. $150 down the drain
budshoteyes
Member
No root rot in my cubes and roots extending into my buckets!
My cubes sometimes get green and or black fungus on the top surface and have had no effect on growth or root color.
I did notice that if I'm away and don't replenish the buckets that have been dry for days the roots take on some brown but I believe that to be from the nutes. The plants recover well too unless dry for weeks!
I was also not cooling my system..70 to 77 degrees water temps and no root rot. Good aeration means slot!
I really don't know or have experienced root rot yet in three grows.A few failures due to spider mites though..ahrrg!
My cubes sometimes get green and or black fungus on the top surface and have had no effect on growth or root color.
I did notice that if I'm away and don't replenish the buckets that have been dry for days the roots take on some brown but I believe that to be from the nutes. The plants recover well too unless dry for weeks!
I was also not cooling my system..70 to 77 degrees water temps and no root rot. Good aeration means slot!
I really don't know or have experienced root rot yet in three grows.A few failures due to spider mites though..ahrrg!
budshoteyes
Member
My 4 inch cube plants are over 2+ ft tall within 3 weeks after roots have dipped themselves into the bucket.
Read this thread and you will get the results shown there!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4535708#post4535708
Read this thread and you will get the results shown there!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4535708#post4535708
T
TREE KING
thanks for the link gregor. the 4" cubes are only 0.39 too, nice. as of now im leaning more towards giving these a try. storm if you pop back up please let us know how many times a day your watering those things
budshoteyes, the roots in that system look killer but i think im gonna try out those jiffy coco cubes. thanks for the link though
budshoteyes
Member
Give both a try!
No matter have fun and good luck...let us know how you do with your choice/s!
No matter have fun and good luck...let us know how you do with your choice/s!
T
TREE KING
just ordered the jiffy coco cubes last night. i just wanted to thank everyone in this thread for all your thoughts and info
T
TREE KING
gregor i just received my 4" jiffy coco blocks. im not really liking them that much cause there only 2 1/2" tall. do you know where i can get the 6" ones? are these pretty much the same blocks or no?
http://www.growsmarthydroponics.com...ftrk=gdfV22646_a_7c984_a_7c4625_a_7cCGB_d_004
U
Ultra Current
I’ve thought long and hard and here is what I believe is going on in your E&F system. Many growers have complaints about Rockwool but they don’t understand why they are having problems with it while others who use rockwool have perfect results no matter how often they flood their tray. People who have problems with Rockwool love to blame it on the Rockwool but they are completely wrong. The problem is the amount of dissolved oxygen in the solution on the tray when it is flooded.
Before I get into your problems, I want to show you some extremes. Lets compare a 4x8 Ebb and Flow tray to a 4x8 NFT tray using the exact same tray that you use. Both trays are going to use 4” Rockwool as a medium. The NFT tray floods continuously but the solution is moving fast down the tray and draining out which creates a waterfall which also creates dissolved oxygen as well as the water moving faster on the tray also creates more DO. On the NFT tray the Rockwool cubes are always in water but the plants do well. Because they have enough dissolved oxygen, the roots don’t drown. If you were to stop the flow of water in the NFT so that the water didn’t drain, then eventually the DO levels would decrease and your roots would drown from lack of oxygen to the roots. What I’m trying to show you is that if other people can use Rockwool with excellent results then you can to but you have to account for certain variables.
Now lets get back to your system. Because you don’t believe in Vegging your plants before you put them into flowering, the roots will be very small when you put them into the 4” cubes. Because the plants are very small, they will use a very small amount of water compared to bigger plants. Personally I would use smaller cubes but I know you want the 4” cubes so we will stick to this. If your plants had roots big enough to fill the cube (but they don’t), there would be less space for water to fill the cube and they would get more oxygen from those air pockets. Because you don’t have roots to fill the cube, the rockwool gets saturated very easily and is harder for it to get it’s oxygen to the roots because you have to personally supply it to them and you are not supplying enough. When the tray is not flooded, the roots are able to get it’s oxygen from the air itself but as the tray is flooded, they need to get it’s oxygen from the water while the tray is flooded. They get that oxygen from dissolved oxygen in your solution. It is the growers responsibility to add the right amount of O2 into the system. Your problem and a lot of E&F growers problem is that when their tray is flooded, they don’t have proper DO levels and they are actually drowning their roots and killing them. Once you start killing roots then the cubes stay saturated for much much longer like your plants and you have to wait for new roots to grow to take in that solution or you have to wait for evaporation to the air. Basically your starving your plants of oxygen when your tray is flooding and it is destroying your roots.
Here is a solution to your problem and I will only stick to 4” cubes because that is the way that you personally want to run them although I would use smaller cubes. You want to do 2 things to overcome this problem. You will want to buy a bigger pump and remove the drain in your ebb and flow kit and throw it in the trash. This is important because the drain is restricting how fast your tray can drain and the water is sitting in the tray too long. Sitting water has very low DO. If you take out the drain then the water can move faster and add more DO to your solution so you don’t drown your roots like you are doing. Because you are going to remove your drain, you need a big enough pump to pump faster than it is draining. The pump that I use on a 4x8 tray is a 1,000 GPH pump. With the combination of the waterfall from the water draining into the Rez and the water moving faster on the tray you are able to get more DO into your water and this will prevent your roots from drowning. You want to flood your tray for the least amount of time as possible to prevent problems. I like to flood my trays in no more than 5 minutes and let them drain fast. The last thing that you have to do is lower your humidity in the room so you can get more evaporation of your cubes into the air. I’ll bet that your humidity in your room is higher than you think and because of this the cube will stay saturated longer because you have very small roots in early flower with no VEG time. Once the roots grow then the cube will be able to hold more oxygen and you will have less problems. It really isn’t that complicated, but there are many variables when you grow that you have to take into account. Once you take these into account and give your plants all that they want, then growing becomes very easy in any medium.
Before I get into your problems, I want to show you some extremes. Lets compare a 4x8 Ebb and Flow tray to a 4x8 NFT tray using the exact same tray that you use. Both trays are going to use 4” Rockwool as a medium. The NFT tray floods continuously but the solution is moving fast down the tray and draining out which creates a waterfall which also creates dissolved oxygen as well as the water moving faster on the tray also creates more DO. On the NFT tray the Rockwool cubes are always in water but the plants do well. Because they have enough dissolved oxygen, the roots don’t drown. If you were to stop the flow of water in the NFT so that the water didn’t drain, then eventually the DO levels would decrease and your roots would drown from lack of oxygen to the roots. What I’m trying to show you is that if other people can use Rockwool with excellent results then you can to but you have to account for certain variables.
Now lets get back to your system. Because you don’t believe in Vegging your plants before you put them into flowering, the roots will be very small when you put them into the 4” cubes. Because the plants are very small, they will use a very small amount of water compared to bigger plants. Personally I would use smaller cubes but I know you want the 4” cubes so we will stick to this. If your plants had roots big enough to fill the cube (but they don’t), there would be less space for water to fill the cube and they would get more oxygen from those air pockets. Because you don’t have roots to fill the cube, the rockwool gets saturated very easily and is harder for it to get it’s oxygen to the roots because you have to personally supply it to them and you are not supplying enough. When the tray is not flooded, the roots are able to get it’s oxygen from the air itself but as the tray is flooded, they need to get it’s oxygen from the water while the tray is flooded. They get that oxygen from dissolved oxygen in your solution. It is the growers responsibility to add the right amount of O2 into the system. Your problem and a lot of E&F growers problem is that when their tray is flooded, they don’t have proper DO levels and they are actually drowning their roots and killing them. Once you start killing roots then the cubes stay saturated for much much longer like your plants and you have to wait for new roots to grow to take in that solution or you have to wait for evaporation to the air. Basically your starving your plants of oxygen when your tray is flooding and it is destroying your roots.
Here is a solution to your problem and I will only stick to 4” cubes because that is the way that you personally want to run them although I would use smaller cubes. You want to do 2 things to overcome this problem. You will want to buy a bigger pump and remove the drain in your ebb and flow kit and throw it in the trash. This is important because the drain is restricting how fast your tray can drain and the water is sitting in the tray too long. Sitting water has very low DO. If you take out the drain then the water can move faster and add more DO to your solution so you don’t drown your roots like you are doing. Because you are going to remove your drain, you need a big enough pump to pump faster than it is draining. The pump that I use on a 4x8 tray is a 1,000 GPH pump. With the combination of the waterfall from the water draining into the Rez and the water moving faster on the tray you are able to get more DO into your water and this will prevent your roots from drowning. You want to flood your tray for the least amount of time as possible to prevent problems. I like to flood my trays in no more than 5 minutes and let them drain fast. The last thing that you have to do is lower your humidity in the room so you can get more evaporation of your cubes into the air. I’ll bet that your humidity in your room is higher than you think and because of this the cube will stay saturated longer because you have very small roots in early flower with no VEG time. Once the roots grow then the cube will be able to hold more oxygen and you will have less problems. It really isn’t that complicated, but there are many variables when you grow that you have to take into account. Once you take these into account and give your plants all that they want, then growing becomes very easy in any medium.
gregor_mendel
Active member
I don't know about the height of the other block you posted. Call the people selling them and ask them to measure.
Or you could stack one block on another once the first is rooted. (the blocks you just purchased)
budshoteyes
Member
i just lost 8 of 16 clones cause i tried another type of rock wool cube. i cant remember the brand but the label said "quick drain" The clones died over night!
im headed to the shop today to buy the " grodan delta " cubes. No need to water them for almost two weeks!
im headed to the shop today to buy the " grodan delta " cubes. No need to water them for almost two weeks!
T
TREE KING
budshoteyes is there any way for you to find out the name? were they pargro quick drain cubes? ive been looking for ones that drain quicker for a while
I do E&F SOG w/ 0-7days veg max. I root in the 1.5" rockwool cubes. Then put in a net pot surrounded by hydroton, may or may not veg (7 days at the most, and this is rare), finally they go into the table at 4 per square foot. I then add about 3" of hydroton to the table surrounding my net pots. I do not use a chiller or heater. I do not even have a thermometer in my rez. I just put my fingers in it to make sure it feels cool. I get fantastic results, and have NEVER had root rot, slime, or any other plant health problem that couldnt be fixed with ph or nute adjustment.
I agree with Ultra Current, in that your plants are too small for 4" cubes. I understand the ease of using them, vs messing with the hydroton. But it really helps with providing a lot of oxygen in the root area. I flood 15min every 3 hours lights on, and twice lights off. Those 4" cubes are just not well suited to a small plant w/ little to no veg.
P.S. back in the day when I was doing larger scale (now I only deal w/ 1 2x2 at a time w/ 16 plants) I would fill a 4x8 table w/ 3-4" of hydroton, and just stick the rockwool 1.5" cubes right into the hydroton no netpot. This was way easier than potting up 128 clones per table, and the results were just as fantastic. Again I know hydroton can be a pain, but it is reusable, and its better than having root rot.
I agree with Ultra Current, in that your plants are too small for 4" cubes. I understand the ease of using them, vs messing with the hydroton. But it really helps with providing a lot of oxygen in the root area. I flood 15min every 3 hours lights on, and twice lights off. Those 4" cubes are just not well suited to a small plant w/ little to no veg.
P.S. back in the day when I was doing larger scale (now I only deal w/ 1 2x2 at a time w/ 16 plants) I would fill a 4x8 table w/ 3-4" of hydroton, and just stick the rockwool 1.5" cubes right into the hydroton no netpot. This was way easier than potting up 128 clones per table, and the results were just as fantastic. Again I know hydroton can be a pain, but it is reusable, and its better than having root rot.
T
TREE KING
very good point and thats exactly what im thinking. the problem is if i go with smaller cubes then il have a problem with plants tipping over and you definitely know why i dont wanna deal with that hydroton. im trying to find something in between and i hope these jiffy coco cubes are the answer. just to point out i always had good results when i had seedlings in the sunleaves super starter plugs which are coco so maybe i shoulda just been using coco from day 1 anyway. worst case scenario im gonna have to go with the hydroton. i also just bought a 6 pack of pargro stonewool cubes today and im running a test to see how quick they drain just to see if they could be usable.
I never had an issue with the plants tipping over using this method. When they stretch, they are not burdened by the weight of buds yet, so you let them stetch into a trellis, then the trellis holds them up.
When done I would get as much of the roots and crap out of the table, then run a long continuous flood with fresh water and no plants, during this long flood I would swish all the hydroton around, and continue to get as much of the roots out, let it drain, put dnew fresh water in the rez and repeat once or twice. Basically cleaning the hydroton as good as I could without ever taking it out of the table. I did this for quite a few cycle back to back with no ill effects.
Now since I am only dealing with 2x2 table I take it all out and clean it. It sucks, but I love the results. Hydroton is a fantastic medium for E&F.
When done I would get as much of the roots and crap out of the table, then run a long continuous flood with fresh water and no plants, during this long flood I would swish all the hydroton around, and continue to get as much of the roots out, let it drain, put dnew fresh water in the rez and repeat once or twice. Basically cleaning the hydroton as good as I could without ever taking it out of the table. I did this for quite a few cycle back to back with no ill effects.
Now since I am only dealing with 2x2 table I take it all out and clean it. It sucks, but I love the results. Hydroton is a fantastic medium for E&F.
T
TREE KING
i wasnt talking about the plants tipping over in your system i was talking about if i used 3" squared cubes with no hydroton involved then my plants would tip over
Securityfirst
Active member
Hey bud whats up?
What size is your dehumidifer, how many plants and how many/what type lights do you have? I ask because depending on your canopy I think you might benefit from a larger dehuey.
Good Luck
SF
What size is your dehumidifer, how many plants and how many/what type lights do you have? I ask because depending on your canopy I think you might benefit from a larger dehuey.
Good Luck
SF
Securityfirst
Active member
