What's new
  • Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

passive plant killer

catman

half cat half man half baked
Veteran
...maybe...there is... room in ...thred w/ 2600+ posts,,, for several opinions in open forum dialogue on internet... maybe...

there was, maybe is, certain degree of class in this thred....
that posters could contribute, or ask questions, or develop their own models....
w/out being slammed... in quest for variations of original post... see post #1....

some imaginary gardeners never tried passive plant `iller.... but, still, maybe...
contribute to thred.... maybe because thred is good thred, open to posters w/
questions, maybe their own form of answers to their own variations of post #1...
Well said mistress. I'd like to quote my first in this post in this thread as proof that this thread has been/should be how you've described.

I love reading wise words from individuals who understand that in general, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. The openness you guys have towards ideas and change has created a very informational thread and a civil one at that. The linux analogy is fitting, though you guys have been great leaders getting this all started so please, pat yourselves on the back for the great work you have done/started.

Hopefully we can collectively figure out all the little details and finally simplify things without making them simpler than they actually are. I'll most likely be making some hand-watered PPKs in the near future instead of doing plain hempy buckets, but I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread regardless of what I do. Keep up the great work all you active, passive plant killers.
Since then, I've had more than a few disagreements with my ideas and THAT IS GREAT. My ideas might be terrible, but they are just my ideas and not something I take too seriously. That isn't to say that I am not totally obsessed and passionate about ideas, but I'm well aware I'm doing something new and it is risky. Even though what I will is very simple in my opinion. I come here to share my experiences from others so that they can learn and avoid the same mistakes I might make. More so, I've come here to learn from others and the mistakes they have made.

Since my first post, I've managed to get involve in some personal conflicts that are very common when passionate people disagree with each other, but that doesn't mean we have to behave normally in this thread. Many of us are obviously seeking excellence in how we prefer to grow plants and some of us seek excellence in different ways. If we aren't willing to understand another person's situation, ideas, and desires (even if we disagree with them,) we can't communicate exceptionally. Because many ideas from many different people have been integrated successfully into this thread, effective communication has taken place and has led to the design of an entirely new/evolved/improved system for some people. Maybe the latest revision of the PPK is already perfect, but if it isn't, how will it ever be improved if no one is willing to risk trying something new? Maybe a handful of people are doing things on their own and maybe they are doing a good job, but evolution will occur faster if we are willing to rise above our behavioral nature and apologize to each other when we fail to do so. Holding grudges isn't going to advance anything and if you can't get over a grudge, keep it to yourself or a PM.

I've been told several times my tone isn't appropriate and I hope now that I've expressed my feelings on things more, maybe others will hear my tone differently after realizing the big picture about what this thread is about. I strongly believe this thread for the most part has been a great manifestation of the spirit of ICMAG. ICMAG isn't about individuals perusing perfection through whatever means to benefit themselves. ICMAG is about us sharing our passions, helping each other out, enjoying each others company, and ultimately to change the entire world's perception of our beloved plant and ways of life so that some day we are more able to do everything ICMAG is about with our neighbors. So that some day we are more able to share our faces and personalities instead of just our plants with friends we meet all over the world through this community. ICMAG is about working together because we have a common goal. The smaller goals of individuals are not all the same in this thread and if we aren't aware of this and willing to accept it, we lose sight of the big picture and prevent or delay ourselves from accomplishing any goals.

you ever try and grow a tree in rockwool cubes on a table?
Strawman fallacy #1

and then as far as catman goes...... what's your point?
"stratified media" with diagrams? F*#king hysterical.
YOU HAVE COMPLETELY FAILED TO GRASP THE BENEFITS OF THE ASPECTS OF THE PPK SYSTEM.
nutrients have a tendency to concentrate when media dries out and plants take them up in different quantities.
sub-irrigation prevents the dry out part and the way the PPKs are all tied together back to the main res keeps the solution blended so ratios never get too far out of whack. another huge benefit of this is less volume of nutrient solution is used. sub-irrigation allows the plant to always be growing. growth slows if there is a pronounced wet-dry cycle after the "dry" part of the cycle.
I'm not going to count the number of "FUCKS" you say, but the large number of them suggests you are very frustrated and just maybe if you took the time to grasp what someone else is saying, ignore someone who you feel is incapable of understanding certain ideas, or help some one while keeping in mind their situation and preferences without forcing your side of things on someone, you might not be so frustrated.

When a medium with stronger capillary action than roots themselves dries out, water is leeched from the roots back into the soil. Dry roots are damaged if not dead roots. Water being removed from the medium or the roots increases nutrient concentration. Sub-irrigation through capillary action will only climbso high, but pulsing frequently keeps the top of the medium moist. Recirculating the solution in addition to having the passive res both help to maintain EC levels.

In my buckets, my theory is Turface will hold enough water between daily or every other day top feeding to prevent any detrimental drying out even if there is nothing being wicked up into the bucket. As a remainder of my situation, I'm only growing three plants around a single 600w vertical bulb so I'm after 1/2 #ers at most. At most, each bucket will have 3 gallons of water outside of the medium which I believe will be enough for me to re-use the solution for several days. I will add back water and make adjustments if necessary.

plants can grow air roots and water roots and plant roots need oxygen. the ppk allows a majority of the root zone to have access to oxygen. the pulsing component not only results in a more developed root system (and larger yields) but also facilitates gas exchange. AIR ROOT PRUNING IS NOT A CONSIDERATION AND SHOULD NOT BE PART OF THE CONVERSATION. the side-wall holes are there to facilitate gas exchange.
You seem to claim you follow D9's design to a T sometimes when trying to argue a point and sometimes not so much (not saying this is good or bad,) but for the record, and maybe I missed where D9 changed his mind, air root pruning was and possible still is one of the little things that contributes to the PPKs success.

How exactly do you think the side-wall holes facilitate gas exchange? When water leaves a medium, regardless how or how fast, gas will replace the space the water previously occupied. With a 5 gallon bucket with no side-wall holes and only the tailpiece, I can add as much water as possible without overflowing the bucket and when it drains (after the PWT goes below the top of the medium,) I can hear the snap,crackle, and pop of the exchange of liquid for gas.

I'd rather have been viewed as a passive, moderate contributor here but the stuff you guys wrote is total horse sh%t.

you're entitled to your opinions but try and at least pretend you have a clue you know what you are talking about. I'm sure you both grow nice plants or whatever but don't come in here and challenge this amazing contribution to medical growing unless you have a worthwhile point to debate ABOUT THE PPK AS DESIGNED, CONSTRUCTED AND OPERATED HERE IN THIS THREAD.
You can call it horse shit all you want, but you aren't going to convince everyone without reason. You can't convince everyone no matter what you say, but none-the-less, you're outbursts out of emotions aren't useful.

Again, I'm clueless? How? I don't claim I understand exactly how the PPK works, but I have several theories of how it might. I've more than demonstrated I understand the theory of how you think it works and expressed my skepticism with reason. Regardless if I'm right or wrong, to say I'm clueless and can't have any opinion if I haven't done things exactly your way sounds like something someone would say when they don't have have reasons and fall back on appeals to emotions.

Strawman fallacy #2

the main purpose of the wick is sub-irrigation. it also moves the PWT down out of the root zone.

FWIW, I'm not sure if I would say there is a main or secondary purpose of the wick in my buckets because it serves both purposes regardless. I will be using screened Turface on the bottom of the bucket so it won't sub-irrigate like a normal PPK when the water table is a few to several inches below the bottom of the bucket. My water table can be moved above the bottom of the bucket so I can bring the PWT inside of the bucket so wicking will make it's way closer to the top of the medium to keep the moisture profile uniform as possible as well as for the purpose of starting a clone or transplant in a bucket.

I value growing trees. Do you grow 5' tall, 4' wide trees in rockwool blocks on tables?
Strawman fallacy #3

1. pump failures in PPK affect yield.
2. volume of solution used. In hand-watering you get run-off. No run-off in a PPK. In recirc systems you have to do res changeouts and dump reservoirs. You do no changeouts with a PPK.
3. You do not have to chill any solution in a PPk
4. You do not have to aerate any solution in a PPk.
5. You have very little fluctuation in pH and EC in your root zone in a PPK.
6. you have virtually no wet/dry cycle in your root zone in a PPK (so growth is more constant through the photoperiod)

FWIW, Those are all true of my proposed bucket. Though 2, I will hand water and there won't be any runoff/DTW. I might have to dump/changeout depending on the mechanics on the system and mistakes I will likely make with nutrients. 6, Though I don't think for a second a I can regulate the wet/dry cycle by feeding by hand, I do think I can do it without any significant issues.

Can I assume you are not claiming you grow 5' tall by 4' wide trees in rockwool blocks on tables?
#4, but at this point you are just using the fallacy of repetition.

I'm not saying it's bad or good either. I'm saying that it is arguably the best solution to the combination of problems and challenges growers of indoor cannabis trees (for state-sanctioned medical programs or otherwise) face.
Arguably, you just contradicted yourself in a single breath. I do agree that is arguably the bests solution for such problems and challenges depending on other personal preferences a grower might have. If it simply is hands-down the best, only through time and new growers trying it out, will there ever be a basis for a fallacy of appealing to popularity that is prevalent and preventing progress in this discussion.
 

catman

half cat half man half baked
Veteran
please point out where I am misrepresenting jjfoo's position? he wrote that he's doing blocks on tables. go back and read it.

This is important. If you guys could understand this, you'd have a better idea of why you are pissing people off so much.

You are arguing about jjfoo's position on rockwool. jjfoo was arguing that there is more than one way to skin a cat. What you might find easy, another person might find hard (like he said, the metrics of what you are talking about.) jjfoo spoke about personal preferences and about how you need stop making generalizations because of your personal biases.

Keep on with the "you don't understand, you're clueless, go back and read, etc" when someone has something to say that you don't want to hear. jjfoo hit the nail on the head when he said this is like a religious debate..

wrong.

moisture transpires out of plant leaves and results in a loss of turgor. water itself doesn't just flow out of the roots.

the only time "stuff" is drawn out of roots is when the concentration/chemical potential of the solution on the outside of the membrane is higher than than that inside the membrane (root). The plant "appears" to dehydrate but this has to do with ions passing across a membrane (osmosis) in the reverse direction and not because it is "wet" in the roots and dry in the medium.

Okay, okay, we'll do things your way.

Wrong. <insert irrelevant information>

Now, my way..

Transpiration-Pull In 1895, the Irish plant physiologists H. H. Dixon and J. Joly proposed that water is pulled up the plant by tension (negative pressure) from above.
As we have seen, water is continually being lost from leaves by transpiration. Dixon and Joly believed that the loss of water in the leaves exerts a pull on the water in the xylem ducts and draws more water into the leaf.
But even the best vacuum pump can pull water up to a height of only 34 ft (10.4 m) or so. This is because a column of water that high exerts a pressure of ~15 lb/in2 (103 kilopascals, kPa) just counterbalanced by the pressure of the atmosphere. How can water be drawn to the top of a sequoia (the tallest is 370 feet [113meters] high)? Taking all factors into account, a pull of at least 270 lb/in2 (~1.9 x 103 kPa) is probably needed.
The answer to the dilemma lies the cohesion of water molecules; that is the property of water molecules to cling to each through the hydrogen bonds they form.


When ultrapure water is confined to tubes of very small bore, the force of cohesion between water molecules imparts great strength to the column of water. It has been reported that tensions as great as 3000 lb/in2 (21 x 103 kPa) are needed to break the column, about the value needed to break steel wires of the same diameter. In a sense, the cohesion of water molecules gives them the physical properties of solid wires.
Because of the critical role of cohesion, the transpiration-pull theory is also called the cohesion theory.
Capillary action occurs in part because of cohesion.

That is just a theory (imaginary idea, right?) so it probably doesn't mean anything. Evolution and gravity are both theories that are not understood by any individual in the world, but the majority of people claim otherwise..

this is why when you hit a small rooted cutting with a dose of high EC solution the plant appears to wilt or worse even though the medium is soaked.
Soak a medium with tap water with a clone or seedling in it.. watch it damper/wilt.

Others on this thread (INCLUDING MYSELF) are trying to help you but you don't get it. So go ahead and just water every other day. You are still going to grow a plant and get results.
Helping me by claiming that I don't understand what you are doing because I haven't done it? I'd love to give it a shot some day, but my conditions which you are oblivious to because they are so complex you can't understand them (or are too hot headed to read) are <take a deep breath here> different than yours.

water is put into the medium via pulse feed and moves down through the medium. it displaces air and in your closed bucket example it has to go back up out the top.
No buckets are closed/sealed. They just sit on top of each other.

with the sidewall holes the displaced air also goes out through the holes. at least that is what I see in my garden.
I see air go down through the tailpiece and out between the gaps in the buckets.

I don't have to convince anyone. I'm just presenting a very strong counter argument to what you and jjfoo wrote.
But you don't understand what we wrote..
dueling.gif

1. stratified media
2. foregoing the pulse feed
3. see below where you discuss wicks and sub-irrigation

What is wrong with stratified media? I got a good hunch you are confusing the capillary height potential of a media with what a perched water table is.

2.
bashhead.gif
Dude... did I mention I'm going to feed by hand?

then stop trying to innovate until you do fully understand what objectives the PPK and it's design are trying to accomplish
Could you share a post of mine in the last few pages of this thread where I suggested anyone running an active PPK should do something different? I'm not innovating anything nor am I acting like it. I am doing something I've yet to see anyone do that has failed in attempt to accomplish different goals than the active PPK.

I value my plant not dying ahead of its growth rate, general health or yield.

If you think this is not valid because you are going to hand water anyway, then fantastic!! You are correct! But go start another thread in another forum because this one is about getting better results than with just hand-watering alone.
Again, you demonstrate your lack of ability to think outside of your own shoes.

You can reread what I, mistress, or D9 have written about what this thread is about. You sure are making the thread better..

who cares? again this is all theoretical and what you "will be using" and all that.

all you are doing is hand watering a bucket of media with a plant in it. You haven't innovated anything. maybe one day you'll realize you are moving backwards.

If you don't care, why do you put so much effort into being a jackass? I've already verified how I think things will work, but haven't done it with a plant yet.. and I'm not acting any other way.

you have just negated that affect and reduced your root area by not removing the PWT down into the tail pipe if you raise your res level to "get the PWT higher up in the media" to facilitate higher wicking or whatever you are thinking.
Flood & Drain... Flood & Drain

If you results surpass what has been and is continually demonstrated by users of the PPK then you can name your system and the PPK thread will shift focus.

After you grow a bit, you might realize it's not about a system. It's about overcoming challenges faced in an indoor environment while trying to grow trees using artificial light.
I'm not interested in naming any alteration of a system or methodology of growing plants after myself. I'm interested in overcoming the challenges I face which I'm not going to repeat to deaf ears.

you are correct in not being able to regulate the wet/dry cycle as much as you may want in the future and also correct that despite that drawback you are still going to grow a nice plant.

that's the thing. you can do things your way (which is hand watering pots of media) for your entire growing career and be satisfied. Nobody is arguing against that.
Man.. you really really don't seem to understand that other people have different situations and aspirations than yourself. Would you please quote me where I mentioned my objective is to grow one way for an entire career or to even make a career out of growing to begin with?

We are primarily interested in optimizing.... and you become a target when you fail to realize that and keep going on about your hand-watered buckets of media.

I'm primary interested in optimizing the situation I am in right now. I have never said anything that would remotely imply that hand watered buckets better accomplish YOUR goals better than what you are currently doing. What is your deal? Persecution or inferiority complex?

If you also grow trees in indoor environments with the same list of objectives then you could conclude that the PPK is "good" but that is up to you and other individuals.
I realize this is hard for you, but maybe after I repeat myself enough times... My list of objectives is <take a deep breath> different than yours.
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
BEGGING FOR REASONABLE BEHAVIOR:

thred started w/ hand-watering.... see post #1...

If we want to believe in evolution, then we can say that all life started with some kind of primitive ocean born protein.

But is a orangutang best understood in that context? I prefer to look at the orange hair, or wizened eyes.

When a thread is 2600+ posts long, spanning multiple years and multiple changes, it seems misguided to fixate post number one. The Passive Plant Killer is not passive. But it isn't it a Plant Killer either.

Disciple, in addition to I take to be a demonstration of understanding the core mechanics of the system, brings up on point of huge importance when he writes,
It is my intention that noobs will seriously question what you wrote and dismiss it so they stay on track and get the intended results.

The PPK in it's current incarnation is a very coherent method of generating healthy plants with an remarkably small amount of human input. New growers, or growers with limited physical capacity, should be able to maintain a healthy garden using this system. (Some may need help getting it assembled, but once there, it should work for them nicely.)

This, I believe, is universally accepted as true by everyone that frequents this thread.

---

Sometimes, some content belongs in it's own thread. Tomato growers post threads in the vegi section. And they get good tomato feedback by posting in the right area.

---

The world isn't fair. Great people with profound insights are marginalized regularly for a variety of reasons. Sometimes people who have important things to say forget that they are saying them to other humans, with insecurities and deficiencies and opinions and fears and and and and and... Sometimes, the truth you have to share isn't welcome, and no matter how true it is, people simply will not listen to you.

If you have a reason to talk to these scared, close minded people, then the burden falls on you as the speaker/educator to find a way to bridge the gap, to open the door.

Sometimes, you don't have the words, or the ability to succeed. Sometimes, they don't have the capacity to hear.

The balance I am striving for in my life is not to withdraw courtesy and generosity and caring, but to understand when and where my personal energy is being wasted. My life is full of people who need help, but I've learned through personal experience that I can only be of help to a select few. Instead of exhausting myself on people who I can not hear what I have to say, or see what I show them, I've learned that I am not the one to help them and I am not the one to save them.

And by understanding who I cannot help, I am able to redirect my energy to help those I can.

---

If your words fall on deaf ears, please consider the possibility of directing them in more productive ways, in more productive places.

---

And if you choose to use your words here, let them be full of humor and positivity and gentleness and... and... coffee and donuts.

I really love waking up to coffee and donuts.
 

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
member interaction & dialogue that seeks to enhance a given subject matter should begin w/ a basic premise...
...& an agreed framework for what the subject matter is...

@ post #1... this thread...
delta9nxs said:
What i'm soliciting here are any and all comments or pointers about any part of this effort. Any input or links to passive growing techniques are welcome. Anything anyone wants to show and tell is fine with me.

some basic definitions... in part...
passive:
...a component that is not passive is called an active component...

passive hidr0ponics:
...passive hidr0ponics, semi-hidr0ponics or passive subirrigation is a method of growing plants without soil, peat moss, or bark. instead an inert porous medium transports water and fertilizer to the roots by capillary action. water and fertilizer are held in a reservoir and conducted to the roots as necessary, reducing labor and providing a constant supply of water to the roots.
...in the simplest method, the pot sits in a shallow solution of fertilizer and water or on a capillary mat saturated with nutrient solution. since routine maintenance is much simplified, passive hydroponics can reduce the labor required to maintain a large collection of plants...

ImaginaryFriend said:
When a thread is 2600+ posts long, spanning multiple years and multiple changes, it seems misguided to fixate post number one. The Passive Plant Killer is not passive. But it isn't it a Plant Killer either.

..not fixated on post # 1, nor any other post... that is where this thred began...
to ignore the beginning is to ignore the basic premise... the functional methods may have evolved to an `active` system, but the thred is still based on the premise set forth in post #1... thred-starter delta9nxs has not edited that basic premsie, nor changed the title of the thred to `active-p-k`... though, maybe, some members` current interpretation of the system seem to focus only on the active delivery system.... maybe some members focus on the passive techniques presented @ the start of the thred... there is, or should be, room in 2600 posts for these, & other interpretations & inputs to be present, maybe...

as for what is `reasonable`... the above paragraph & the remainder of this post attempts to present a `reasonable` approach...
`behaviour` has nothing to do w/ gardening... the `behaviour` of the member shows in their posts... ICMAG is not a social networking forum.... `behaviour` is important only in how a member interacts w/ other members on this board, relevant to gardening - not how they choose to interpret a system, nor how they choose to express their interpretation of a system...
if, in fact `reasonable behavior` was in effect, the last page or two would not be an issue in this thred, as `reasonable` members would, maybe, conclude that it is `reasonable` for this 2600 post thred to be `interpreted` in myriad ways by the viewers & participants in the thred.... what is un-reasonable is to draw the conclusion that `interpretation` of the system, from post 1 to post 2600, must fit into the `reason` of one or more members` interpretations.... members`
`behaviour` is not an issue, GARDENING is THE issue... while personas have contributed to the thred, personas are not the subject-matter....

the only `rules` of `behaviour` on ICMAG are found in the T.O.U....
this post is about reverting the thred to discussions of gardening, not excluding interpretations of some members based on other members` interpretation of the system...
what member is to define what is `reasonable`? that is `greyest` term in human relations.... if members FOCUS on GARDENING & not slamming another members` INTERPRETATION of a system, then that is, maybe, `reasonable behaviour` enough...

thred starter delta9nxs encouraged interpretation & variation in post #1...
often members have been encouraged by other members to read the entire thred... the thred begins @ post#1...

since post #1, members have presented their own interpretation of the system... See:...

ImaginaryFriend's INTERPRETATION of Delta9nxs' PASSIVE PLANT KILLERS

...`INTERPRETATION`... is important term here... each gardener that visits this thred will have their own `INTERPRETATION` to the posts & concepts presented...

is `interpretation` of PPK by ICMAG members no longer appreciated?

must ICMAG members adopt the `interpretation` of other members?... or be subject to being slammed if they do not agree, in full, w/ those same members` `INTERPRETATION` of the `ppk`?

such a thred-tone is, maybe not, conducive to further development, innovation, or collaborative input & contribution...

such a thred-tone is maybe similar to far away tymes... when `kbs/kfb` threds of old (@og) degenerated into pages upon pages of flaming posts about each members` `interpretation` of the original concepts that kr|_|sty presented in the original thred...

@post#2603...a simple model was presented,

* `ppk`.
** what the ppk is...
*** substrates
**** common substrates
**** alternative substrates
** ppk tekneeks
*** pulce-feed techniqs....
* definitions...
** ppk defined
** pulce feed defined
** other...
* summary...

in part, to provide a framework for the whole of the `ppk`, from post#1 to the latest post... including room for various interpretations of members into framework, making a full body of work...

`work` being that it requires work to orgenise any new thingy so that that thingy can be understood by all interested members... orgenised w/ a framework that allows & encourages active participation in the `work`... otherwise, why is the thred on ICMAG?...
the very basis of ICMAG is active int`l participation... this is not a private, or semi-private thred or forum... though it could be, maybe like `c.c.`... until then, each members` input should be of equal value...

if the `ppk` is @ its completed state... w/out room for further input & `interpretation` by members @ large... then should the thred be closed?
or, should it be only open to input only from gardeners that have adopted other members` `interpretations`?...

maybe, some on these boards have viewed this phenomenon in previous incarnations, previous forums, previous threds....

maybe try searching for & reading some old `kbs/kfb` threds, that may be somewhere @ICMAG, to view how those threds degenerated...
not due to lack of innovation, but to certain members` inability to appreciate other members` interpretations of the original thred-concepts presented by thred-starter kr|_|sty...
there were `purists` that followed lava rox, & soaker-hoses to the `T`...
& others that found perlyte & air-diffuser-discs were far more effective...
while, still others (such as `acry4...`, much respect...) considered the entire set-up too much work to produce trees & showed that a (purposefully) very simple top-fed `drain-to-waste` method, using a `ch0w-mix` (60/40 c0co/hidr0ton), w/out the bells+whistles of the many accessories that the `k... bucket system` gardeners were using... would produce very large, healthy, hi-yeelding trees...

this post is not to present that this/that member is right/wrong... or to try to define what the `ppk` is, what `reasonable` is... that is solely for thred-starter delta9nxs to do...

this member has viewed & posted in this thred since page#1... when it was premised on developing passive method refinements...
delta9nxs said:
What i'm soliciting here are any and all comments or pointers about any part of this effort. Any input or links to passive growing techniques are welcome. Anything anyone wants to show and tell is fine with me.
while the thred has evolved, post#1 still exists... if that basic premise has changed, maybe, it is for thred-starter to post such... & re-define thred-goals...

this is open forum on internet, & as such, w/out clearly defined terms & goals, is literally, open for `interpretation`....

maybe, the thred should be about gardening,,, not so much about the `interpretation` of any one, or more gardeners... the planties are the best interpreters of that particular gardeners` methods...

maybe, some on these boards have viewed this type of thred-evolution/devolution in far-away galaxies... before... @og, @cw...

...maybe... this threds` active participants can, set aside rancor, egos & absolute reliance on their own interpretations... & just post about gardening...
maybe not... either/or, its been fun!

cheers
*mistress*
 

Slimm

Member
...
Since then, I've had more than a few disagreements with my ideas and THAT IS GREAT.
...

You are proud of the fact that you are sharing your experiences and helping others with their mistakes; righting wrongs and bringing wisdom to the ppk thread. Kicking ass and taking names. Nice. You have an in-your-face approach; one that is probably misunderstood and unappreciated here!

So how to bring down the drama level a few notches. Perhaps a little more sensitivity to the work that has been done is in order. Maybe an approach that does not include quoting others so you can disagree with them would be beneficial. Try to talk about the tech and not the people. Above all, hard data from things you have implemented speak louder than conjecture and opinion.

The spirit of this thread is about building and sharing results. Heck if you built one people may even be more interested in what you have to say. This is a very hands on thread and it may be hard to contribute meaningfully without building a PPK or having a lot of growing experience to draw on.

I know there are more than a few here that would like to see this thread return to its normally scheduled program. So with all due respect please try to engage without being abrasive.

:thank you:
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
I have a few questions about the cloner if you don't mind...

How many ml's does the reservoir hold? Depth of turface(3-5"?)? How much of an air gap(1"?)? With the plants from seed, were they handwatered from above or directly into the reservoir? Were they difficult to keep up with as they grew? Did you test the ph/ppm of the reservoir?

Thanks

Need to search through some seeds for a good mother, so I want to keep them small the first time round. Can't seem to find the same containers you use though, but I'm looking for something similar that stacks the right distance apart and limits evaporation



hi, mcfly420! welcome! sorry you had to come into the thread in the middle of all this. this is not normally how it goes here.

i fill the cloner reservoirs to about half, you want the "air gap" in the bottom so that no standing water occurs in the cloner.

they are three quart containers and i fill them half full of turface, about three pints.

sorry about the delay, i didn't see your post until this morning.

d9
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
and now, we deal with this big, ugly, stinkin', mess!

i haven't even read most of the above and don't intend to. it is a distraction from progress.

i don't think the talking about "hand watered" is the problem here. the adaptation for personal reasons is all ok too. i don't mind helping anyone. the goal is to grow your medicine. how you do it is a matter of personal choice.

i think what started this was the negativity displayed by some. if you don't have a high opinion of the device and those using it then please just don't come here.

we feed on positive energy.

if you truly want help then you will get it here.

if you don't seek help and you just want to pick everything apart you will not be happy here and your presence will not be tolerated.

mistress is right in that this is not about personalities, it is about becoming better growers and the science involved in achieving that.

so let's all get back to work! please!
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Effects of watering frequency.

As I have made adjustments and small design changes to this device I have been made aware that regular watering with a uniform level of nutrient concentration caused increased plant growth above a pattern of infrequent watering with varying levels of concentration.

Even if the cumulative amounts of water and nutrients were identical over a 24 hour period.

“Effects of temporal heterogeneity of water supply on the growth of perilla frutescens depend on plant density”

Yousuke Hagiwara

annals of botany 106, 173-181, 2010,

available online at www.aob.Oxfordjournals.org

excerpts from the paper;

“Plant biomass tends to increase under homogeneous water supply (low variability) compared with under heterogeneous water supply (high variability), even when the same amount of water is supplied under both regimes.”

“Several studies have focused on the responses of biomass allocation to roots as well as biomass itself (Novoplansky and Goldberg, 2001; Fay et al., 2003; Maestre and Reynolds, 2007; Hagiwara et al., 2008), because plants can alter their allocations to roots in response to water availability.”

“biomass growth can be modulated by the allocation responses to variability in water availability; large allocation to roots would lead to constant biomass growth being maintained.”

“(1) nutrient availability depends on water availability (Lambers et al., 1998); (2) water availability is likely to limit plant growth
under nutrient-rich conditions, because under these conditions
plants will grow larger and require more water than under
nutrient-poor conditions (Goldberg and Novoplansky, 1997;
Stevens et al., 2006); and (3) the variability in water availability
is likely to affect water uptake of plants under
nutrient-rich conditions, because the allocation to roots will
be smaller under these conditions. Therefore, plant responses
to water heterogeneity should be greater under nutrient-rich
conditions. In fact, the biomass of solitary plants of Perilla frutescens was greater under homogeneous than heterogeneous
water supply, only under nutrient-rich conditions (Hagiwara
et al., 2008).”

“The low variability in water availability under
homogeneous supply is likely to have allowed the plants to
take up water steadily, thereby allowing the plants to increase
their growth continuously. In addition, the plants under homogeneous supply allocated more biomass to roots versus shoots
(Fig. 3). Under homogeneous supply, a large allocation to
roots may have allowed plants to absorb water efficiently and
improve biomass growth.”



These excerpts are just part of a larger study involving plant density as well as watering frequency and nutrient levels but, along with some of the studies on pulse watering mechanics, they indicate that frequent, regular applications of small amounts of water and nutrients causes plants to outperform plants given the same amount of water and nutrients in fewer events.

This explains why those hand watering containers are not getting the same growth as those pulsing.

There is nothing wrong with hand watering once a day, of course, but you won't get the same size plant and yield. Hand watering is a good place to start.

Someone with limited resources could start with a ppk upper bucket or “grow” container and a bottom container with a single hole 3” below the rim and water drain to waste daily. They will grow a nice plant without problems.

When they are ready to step up production they could next install a volume tank, control bucket, and float valve. It should be noted that this alone will not enhance production but coupled with the daily top watering it will. This was pretty much proven in the first part of this thread. It will also ensure that your plant won't become damaged from water stress.

And, ultimately, should the grower decide to “go for it” he can add a pulse watering scheme which will prove far more efficient at delivering nutrients and water.

Root and shoot biomass allocation are directly related to water and nutrient availability. Continuous availability means continuous growth, especially when nutrients are matched to the plants uptake rate.

d9
 

zeke99

Active member
I observed the same thing over a period of two years of growing drain to waste indoors.

Yields were always better with an automated, regular watering schedule as opposed to my best efforts to hand water once daily. I even tried a scheme once of breaking the daily hand water in two, hoping for better saturation.

The Active PK is something else all together though. For me it's brought the joy of growing back. I guess it's not for everyone, but once you are setup, it's so low stress/maintenance that it's laughable.

I have a few plants in coco/perlite, a few in turface/perlite and a couple of more in turface/coco.
 

mrcreosote

Active member
Veteran
Hey D9,
thought I'd drop in to say Hi and I hope your doing well. I just read through a bunch of posts I missed. Some are stuff I just skipped. This last is most interesting. Kudos to your vigilance in searching out important scientific studies that help us all in our quest to maximize our understanding of what works and why. Greatly appreciated by us lazier folks. My searches turn up much more dross than gold.
I hemmed and hawed a bit before settling for a digital 8 event daily/ per minute pulse timer over a 50 minute cycle timer figuring that a feed every 3 hours would be ample with my 8822 and perlite mix. Next online order, I'll probably get the cycle timer and try more cycles less water. No big deal since the Hydrofarm digital and the ebay cycle timer are both under 20 bux.

I can report that my experiment with a 5" netpot with 3/4" pvc tailpiece is not ideal. The science behind this experiment ? I dunno, I just had them laying around doing nothing after changing my mind from my original plan to do DWC. OK, there was a blip of a thought that since air to roots can be a limiting factor to growth and if the medias moisture holding capacities are being met fairly regularly ( I hand watered about 3 x@ 6 hour intervals, 3 plants) a net pot would offer a faster gas exchange.
The plant is doing fine. Too fine. It shot up almost 18" before sending out ancillary leaves.
A sativa, Tangerine Dream, which I now find to be notorious for stretching 4-5x in flower.
So, as a comparative experiment it fails, but the problem is that roots are growing through the fiberglass screen liner because water runs through and sits on the tub before it drains and I get very fine roots following the dampness.

A 5" cup may be ok for rooted clones to veg for a week or two before transplant to flower for small spaces but not for seed plants that need to grow large enough to take decent clones from. Live and learn. First indoor grow. I didn't really understand how fast these suckers grow! 2 days ago I saw a teenie root peek through... today there are a bunch of them.
Transplanting is going to hurt tomorrow by ripping those roots out of the screen. It'll probably be fine but I just don't like the idea that it might slow the plant down more than a transplant tends to do.
The net pot idea could probably work really well by making the bottom solid and the first inch of the sidewall but by the time it would take to do all that and cut screens, you might as well drill out a bucket and be done with it.

The lazy ass air-pot is a fail. Too much work. Might be an interesting experiment as a side by side with the same strain to see if there's a difference but I tend to doubt it. When the water drains out from the top feed, then air has to take it's place. No way around it, so the exchange is only limited by how fast the water exits, and with this media, it's damn quick.
I'll dig out the drill bit sharpener and get busy bucket-drilling.

By the way, very clever top feed rig. I like it.

"delta9nxs- The Ron Popeil of Ganja...
PPK™ -Set it and forget it."
(audience cheers)

See you around mate...take care.
 

zeke99

Active member
Anyone else having trouble downloading Zeke99's PDF file? Says file has been deleted.

yes I deleted the old one after adding more photos to a new version.

with that site I can't swap files around.

http://www.4shared.com/document/pddBfqn1/ppk.html

at this point with my shit set up i can't imagine making any more changes to the pdf. My own printed copy went into a file...

if anyone wants to a copy of the .doc file to play around with, just let me know.
 
Top