BOGO--Organic food for the poor

[Iron_Lion]

i am looking into a few chickens myself. theres a class on em soon at city farmers.

Chickens are interesting pets, if you can let them roam free they'll eat all the bugs around your yard.

I'd like to get some live stock but my gf wont let me get anything to grow to eat, she wants it as a pet. I was thinking maybe a few chickens and an alpaca or two.

With a couple of cows, some goats or sheep and a few chickens and ducks you can have yourself a very easy to maintain organic farm.

Let the cows eat first they since eat the scruffy shit, goats or sheep go second and eat the finer grass and the chickens and ducks go last and they eat the bugs. While they eat and shit the field gets fertilized.

 

[Dislexus]

Get some hens for eggs and you're right... let them roam around and eat bugs worms etc.

Only cows/goats if you're going to milk them. Girlfriend can learn to make her own organic goat cheeses. There's a goatcheese lady hereabouts and her nannies have their own pages on her website.

Cows really too much overhead for your food return if you're just keeping pets. BTW those goats will go wherever the fuck they please maybe even your roof haha.

Hey you need a big pond/small lake too... with talapia or some other fish... then you're all set for the apocalypse.

 

[zymos]

Goats are better for milk (= cheese, I don't drink the stuff myself) than meat, IMO.

But get a strong fence. Then reinforce it.
We actually had them use a branch as a lever and pop a chain link gate off its hinges.

Ducks: never again unless we clip their wings and keep 'em penned- they were really destructive to our garden.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

you just aren't familiar with the science. It's a question of population densities relative to the environment supporting them. As long as you aren't trying to fit 10 pounds of shit in a one pound box you are fine. There is nothing about chickens per se that is unsafe.

A few chickens in your yard is not going to get you sick. Eating chickens from factory farms will.

Why don't you look up where all the antibiotics are going in the US, and which proportion is actually therapeutic (as opposed to prophylactic or as a means of increasing production). you'll be amazed and informed.

How many cases of E. Coli poisoning did Masanobu Fukuoka cause by throwing ckicken poop around his fields? None.

I'm familiar with the outcomes of imbalance. There's nothing unsafe about humans but we get and transmit disease. A few chickens in everybody's back yard and you have that 10 pounds of shit in a 1 lb box.

You don't just have fecal matter to deal with. That's a relatively small part of the game. Dead carcases and entrails are the big part. A microcosm of urban pet owners might enjoy the opportunity but feeding the poor changes that dynamic considerably. Never been sick from a factory bird. I don't eat processed chicken but fully cooked farm bird is just fine IMO. The problem is when their sometimes infected feces are used to fertilize crops.

Prophylactics are necessary for zoning. We don't have enough usable space to keep enough distance from the perils of poop containment and or distribution. Masanobu Fukuoka didn't have problems because none of his birds were infected or none of their infections transferred to vegetable contamination. B follows A but A didn't cause B.

My favorite chicken house in the city has been around since the 1930s. It's name, 'The Chicken Coop' ain't no accident. As late as the 1940s and 50s they raised chickens on sight. The health department zoned out chicken raising in the city for a reason. Wouldn't be surprised if your city/town zoning ordinance restricts chickens from your own back yard, even as pets.

 

[mad librettist]

chicken tractor!

 

[mad librettist]

Never been sick from a factory bird

anyone you have heard of with antibiotic resistant bacterial infection is sick from factory farms of birds, cows, and pigs using medically important drugs with a tendency to create resistance to increase production

Dead carcases and entrails are the big part

that one is easy. the absolute healthiest way to feed your dog is raw. fresh entrails are a nice treat. slightly ripened entrails are even better, from the dog's perspective. Further, you can eat entrails, and you would, but you are used to easy and cheap meat so you are picky and only eat certain parts.

If I had a yard, it would have a chicken tractor, and my dog would take care of any meat surplus. Feathers are N for growing things, so is the poop, which gets collected for the worms. eggs would trump meat.


why do you assume irresponsible behavior on the part of reasonable people, just because it is normal for corporations to operate without care for the consequences to people?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

... why do you assume irresponsible behavior on the part of reasonable people, just because it is normal for corporations to operate without care for the consequences to people?

I guess I just don't believe it's reasonable to think people will do anything differently in their back yards than they do in their factories. One can't lump an entire demographic into being irresponsible but one also can't ignore the fact that everybody doesn't follow the same rules.

I'm not against anything that sustains sustenance. I'm in the county and live around chicken farmers and small timers. It's a way of life. I wouldn't complain if you were raising chickens next door. I might even buy if you chose to sell.

My parents were teachers so they had summers off. We gardened, canned and froze until the cows came home. We had enough produce to last until the following summer. We even had enough to share with neighbors. But if everybody did that we'd lose lots of commerce because we spent all our time doing it.

When I see acres of pig feces even I realize we've industrialized to far in some areas. I love my bbq but I sure don't love what it takes to get it.

I'm glad we've got folks thinking like you, Mad. Too much of one thing gets troublesome and we have to have alternatives.

 

[zymos]

I really don't understand where you are coming up with the idea that a backyard flock of a half dozen chickens is somehow going to spread pathogenic E. Coli and avian flu.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Where did you get the idea that that's what I posted? Oversimplification is apparent. Look at the title, 'Organic food for the poor'. How would one approach feeding the poor with a half dozen chickens? We'd have to have a bunch of peeps with a half dozen chickens. What do you do when they die, get too old to produce or get stolen? You buy more.

By the time you get to industrial proportions, whether it's industry or wide spread populace (like 3rd world countries) you get problems associated with animals and people in too close parameters (in too high numbers.)

Avain flue comes from birds. It crosses over to humans when numbers and proximity increase. When it happens exponentially, we don't have to get it from the neighbor, it can fly in on the plane from east Asia.

 

[mad librettist]

How would one approach feeding the poor with a half dozen chickens

that's easy, you just look at your neighbors and give them to the one with the greatest needs

 

[zymos]

Chickens in the city would be awesome. E-coli in the making. We'd probably spawn some new strain of avian flu.

No one is suggesting uprooting a factory farm and moving it to the city, and "E-coli in the making" just sounds like fear mongering.

The whole point is that many people can produce some of their own food, and that an urban community garden can easily (and safely) produce a lot of protein in the form of eggs.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I love that Soylent Green art, I grew up watching all that sci-fi stuff. The Omega Man, Silent Running, SG... now I'm drawing a blank on the rest.

Don't forget about protein in the form of rice & beans! (aka habichuelas con arroz)

you know culture plays a huge role. I live in a low income neighborhood that is a food oasis, because it is 90% Jamaican/Dominican/Haitian/etc..

However I have lived in neighborhoods with no strong, unitary cultural tradition of food and low income, and I can tell you there is structural injustice built into our food supply. Where I used to live was a food desert. Feeding a family healthy food in such a place is a herculean effort. Just going to where you can buy the food and back home can easily take 4 hours. I'm not exaggerating. If you happen to work for a living you are really stuck. And good luck competing in the workforce when you eat shit and feel like it too.

local sources, supported via food stamps and other subsidies, feed you only exactly the stuff it takes to give you diabetes.

We're reading the same stuff, aren't we? Is this a good time to introduce Audit Oakland CEDA dot com? It's a website started by my sister and what's come of it is HUGE. She uncovered incredible malfeasance and corruption in the city of Oakland, and has gone so far as to map how they target homeowners for their prospective liens (go to Oakland Local or the Chronicle and search on auditoaklandCEDA, or Cassens). West Oakland is one of those food deserts. Nothing but liquor stores, and those get robbed on a regular basis.


I'll reiterate, not everyone can do the same thing everywhere. But restrictions on growing your own food on your property are ridiculous and help no one, and those restrictions are real. The City of Oakland has decided to legalize what the state of California has already made legal in our ag code! (The ability to sell one's own produce at a 'farm stand' on your property to the general public.)l

And this is meant to state, not imply, that code enforcement, and building codes, zoning, etcetera, is not simply or only meant to protect people. It's often actually meant to generate funds, and all too often, that's all it's used for. Look (your state's) FACE-OFF, or go to AuditOaklandCEDA.com.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

No one is suggesting uprooting a factory farm and moving it to the city,

Then why are you?

and "E-coli in the making" just sounds like fear mongering.

Urban chicken yards might possibly fulfill your suspicions.

The whole point is that many people can produce some of their own food, and that an urban community garden can easily (and safely) produce a lot of protein in the form of eggs.

The point has actually morphed a few times, already been there. Nobody's argued that people can't produce some of their own food so...

What I actually did point out is that urban solutions pose problems. We've known it since the 1940s. Since, the argument is more of a personal one than a solution to feed the poor.

 

[mad librettist]

Disco, it is really hard to figure out what your point is, exactly.


Are you for or against responsible urban chicken ownership?

Because in my opinion, the reason factory farm conditions can arise is that we don't see them. The images we are sold are of sturdy men working the land with their bare hands, and pretty farmhouses.

Since we aren't talking about factory farms in the city, we aren't talking about an E Coli risk. And since you are talking about E. Coli risk, we are assuming you are envisioning a factory farm right in the middle of the city.

So you see, you are freaking confusing Disco bro.

 

[narko]

isnt "the poor" africa/asia ? or is it really this bad in the us? i mean i know the numbers every 6th child is poor ... but really are they starving? or when is one poor?(serious)

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Statistically or ideologically?

 

[In~Plain~Site]

Not the same kind of poor.

Poor here is when you don't own a house(to keep your xBox in) and have to eat MickeyD's 4 times a week.

It's a hard knock life

isnt "the poor" africa/asia ? or is it really this bad in the us? i mean i know the numbers every 6th child is poor ... but really are they starving? or when is one poor?(serious)

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

ideology is in da house

 

[In~Plain~Site]

And the hits just keep coming

I remember when I use to wait around for something to happen...it never did

Be the ball

 

[SeaMaiden]

I live in California, in a rural area, and we've had to donate food to people who couldn't afford it. There are a lot more people who can hardly afford to eat than you might think, and it's getting worse. It's not good when folks are having their home (food) gardens raided and decimated by others.

isnt "the poor" africa/asia ? or is it really this bad in the us? i mean i know the numbers every 6th child is poor ... but really are they starving? or when is one poor?(serious)

I just read an article from one of the Bay area newspapers that in one city one in FOUR children doesn't have enough to eat. Also, the poor in other nations don't have a problem having access to organic food, they have a problem gaining access to food, period, ESPECIALLY when ag consultants are pushing chemical salt fertilizers as the 'solution' to their problems. And companies like Monsanto are selling them their GMO corn, which, by the way, you can't keep the seed of because we have a contract, damn it, and we hold the patent!

Food hasn't become so convoluted in those countries. It's second nature in Bali, for instance, for people to have their livestock in one area and food growing in another area and the village may work cooperatively in the farming efforts. And just like in Puerto Rico (where E. coli rampages not), their chickens are running around wild everywhere. Not as many cattle as I see in PR, but a few are roaming around, too. They still remember how to feed themselves, and their government hasn't made growing lettuce in their yards illegal, as we see here in the US.

Anyone here remember the Oak Park Hates Veggies fiasco? Woman was dinged by code enforcement and ultimately was facing jail time for growing vegetables in her front yard instead of pansies (or whatever the city felt was more pleasing to the eye). This is the ridiculousness of which I speak, and the same thing happens here in California, although Oakland is, so far, the *only* city I've found in CA that has or had the policy of not even allowing people to grow fucking LETTUCE on their own property without a permit. I remember reading Jean fucking Quan's remarks that it was going to be a very easy and simple permitting process, too, and how it would be handled just like the permitting process for a home office.

Did y'all catch that? In the city of Oakland, if you have a home office, you need a permit to have and use that home office. It's only a few dollars, what's your objection? It's my God damn house, and I'm using it legally, would be my first objection.

I apologize, I think I just ranted.

More information on the poor:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/
http://www.irp.wisc.edu/
http://www.nclej.org/poverty-in-the-us.php

Homelessness is on a serious uptick, too. I don't think those folks are too terribly concerned about where to house an Xbox.