Curled leaves, yellowing leaves

[maik]

Hi, I would like some advice on how to proceed with my sick plants.

We're Running twelve plants in hydroton with a continuous drip system hooked up to a 30 gallon res. Using House and Garden nutes and have been doing well until the past week when things started looking very sickly and unhealthy.

We were about to flip it to 12/12 when the plants started looking pretty bad and decided against it. The lights are HPS now and still on 18-6.

Please take a look. There has been new growth although all the leaves are curled downwards like the old leaves. There is also a distinct yellowing from between the veins of the leaves on a couple leaves but not all.

What could be the problem and what is the best way to fix this. Do we need to flush, if so, what is the best way to approach this.

Thanks for any help!

 

[MynameStitch]

can you fill out these questions? it's important so we can help you find out what your problem is.... also I hate to ask, but can you get a few more without the HPS light on, it's so hard to tell the "real" coloration problems if any when the HPS light is on.......

I got a few quick questions...... is the hydroton slimey at all or green? Smelly? What color is the roots... those plants are looking like there is a possible root problem... or way too much ferts won't know unless more questions below are answered.


HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on?
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
What STRAIN are you growing?
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
What is the age of your plants?
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
How tall are the plants?
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
What Technique are you using?
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
What is the Water temperature?
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using
What is the pH of the "Tank"?
How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS?
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
When was your last watering?
What is your water temps?
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
What size bulb are you using?
How old is the bulbs you are using?
What is the distance to the canopy?
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
What is the canopy temperature?
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?
Are you using water from a water softener?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
Are plant's infected with pest's

 

[maik]

Ok, the description above didn't contain our recent Merit flush. We had a slight gnat infestation and wanted to stop it before it got worse so we used very light Merit and flushed the system with pH'd r/o water. We let it cycle for about 1 hour then flushed it with more r/o water to clean the system. Then did a new reservoir change.

Besides the Merit, we also moved the plants under the lights and put them on their own drip lines (went from two driplines per plant to three). They are also under their own light now. We also flipped it to 12/12 for one day and gave it a very week flowering res change (ppm's were only at 980 and we had added H&G's Multi-zen to the mix and the A/b brought back down from 10ml/g to 6.5 ml/g) then we brought it out of 12/12 because of the bad condition they were in and did the Merit flush. All the gnats were gone after that. Then we brought the ppm's back to 1250 under the veg feeding program (a/b, drip clean, root xl).

These all could have been factors. We just need a solution...

Thanks for your help, let me know if you need clarification on any of these questions.

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless


How long has this problem been going on?
One week

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
No, panda film covering walls of a room.

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
Buckets with drip lines

What STRAIN are you growing?
Fire OG x Afghan Haze

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
Taken from clones

What is the age of your plants?
7 weeks of veg after dropping clones in

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
7 weeks

How tall are the plants?

1.5 - 3 ft.

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
Veg

What Technique are you using?
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)

What is the Water temperature?
70 degrees F

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
Roots are white and not slimy

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
House and Gardens - A/B, Root XL, Drip Clean

We also used some Inoculaid (beneficial photosynthetic bacteria) in the early stages of flower without any negative side effects. but, we stopped using when the roots started looking a little slimy. This was 3 weeks ago and the roots look white as ever.

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
Last res change was 10ml/g of A/B

How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
Res change ~1/week

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using
1200-1300 PPM

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
5.6 - 6.0 (although lately its been dropping lately

How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS?
Recently recalibrated

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
Maybe...

When was your last watering?
What is your water temps?
70 degrees F

When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
2 days ago

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
1/week, but there is always excess water in the buckets that doesn't get out

What size bulb are you using?
1000 w

How old is the bulbs you are using?
8 x 1000w Metal Halides and HPS

What is the distance to the canopy?
over 2 ft.

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
65 - 70

What is the canopy temperature?
70-75 degrees

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
Day Temp 76 degrees, Night Temp about 75

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Powerful 8 in intake. Carbonfilter circulating in room and two badass fans.

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Intake is on at night and turns on 15 minutes ever 2.5 hours

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Yes in a figure 8 pattern (Badass fans)

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
Soft, i think? R/O

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
R/O

If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?
PPM ~ 180

Are you using water from a water softener?
No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
It has been fimmed, weeks ago, and slightly pruned the bottom leaves touching buckets

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
Merit to get rid of the gnats

Are plant's infected with pest's
No pests anymore (seen one gnat in the past week)

 

[maik]

Another thing we've noticed recently besides the pH dropping over the course of the res is that the water level in the res has been dropping quite significantly over the course of a day. After our recent res change, the water level dropped from 30 gallons to 22 gallons in less than two days.

Here are some new pictures. You can see that we have healthy big plant and a few small plants (all dropped at the same time). The big ones are also showing signs of discoloration on a few leaves and the curving of the leaves. There's more discoloration on the bigger plants while both smaller and bigger plants are showing curving leaves.

 

[maik]

OK, I just did a recalibration on the PPM meter and when I put it in the 1500 PPM solution, it went through the roof... This probably means I've been underfeeding it? For some reason, my meter read "1 0" and this implies that the calibration was over 2000 ppm and the meter could not read it. However, when I turn the calibration screw down, i cannot possibly turn it down anymore than 1520. This must mean something is wrong with my ppm meter? It won't calibrate to the 1500ppm level as it is too low.

I'm using the General Hydroponics Reference Solution so that might be the wrong solution to use. It is 1500ppm (NaCL Scale) and 2190 PPM (442 Scale). I'm assuming I'm supposed to use the 442 scale but my ppm meter doesn't read over 1999 PPM's. I guess I have to wait till the stores open tomorrow to get the correct calibration solution.

I have the HANNA GroCheck HI 981405N

I calibrated my Trimeter and its reading 1000 uS. That means my ppm's are WAY too low correct?

 

[MynameStitch]

How long is the drip lines on for, do they drip all day? I would always stick with the solution the meter company recommends.... there is a reason for it...... sounds like your ppm meter is messing up...... if the water in the system is being removed fast, then the plants are using more water than nutrients.......or the water is evaporating fast..... have you tested your ppm when the water level drained? They look as if they are being overwatered and not allowed to breath too good.... the leaves yellowing are magnesium problem...... not sure yet if it's locked out or not enough....... your a/b which one is it...... coco a and b? and root xl what brand name? also you just got done flushing her and moving her around a lot with all the res changes and they can be droopy from pest infestations, even after they are gone..... sounds to me there is a few problems here..... fI won't know exactly which ones until you answer the questions I asked above then I can give you your answer.......

are the smaller plants showing the problem or which ones? ALso you said you were about to flip to 12/12 then you said you took them out of 12/12.... which one is it? This poor thing has been stressed out a lot..... switching lighting schedules so much too quickly, a lot of flushing and pest infestation........ adding more drip lines from 2 to 3...... why did you add another? Your plant looks like it's being over watered a lot.... the curling leaves and drooping of the plant looks like it's getting too much water...... drip system should have a certain time frame where given a break if I remember correctly...... I will check... but depending on how much water comes out can cause problems.... I am going to double check that... but I am think I remember

 

[MIway]

OK, I just did a recalibration on the PPM meter and when I put it in the 1500 PPM solution, it went through the roof... This probably means I've been underfeeding it? For some reason, my meter read "1 0" and this implies that the calibration was over 2000 ppm and the meter could not read it. However, when I turn the calibration screw down, i cannot possibly turn it down anymore than 1520. This must mean something is wrong with my ppm meter? It won't calibrate to the 1500ppm level as it is too low.

I'm using the General Hydroponics Reference Solution so that might be the wrong solution to use. It is 1500ppm (NaCL Scale) and 2190 PPM (442 Scale). I'm assuming I'm supposed to use the 442 scale but my ppm meter doesn't read over 1999 PPM's. I guess I have to wait till the stores open tomorrow to get the correct calibration solution.

I have the HANNA GroCheck HI 981405N

I calibrated my Trimeter and its reading 1000 uS. That means my ppm's are WAY too low correct?

i'm not sure bout which model u have... the 405N is supposed to measure in ec, while the 404N is in ppm... so have to assume u have the 404 since those are the values u r talkin...???

but either way... the gh solution is 3.0ec... so just cal u'r unit to 1500 ppms & go with that value... so long as u keep using it like that, it will all be consistent, which is most important. now a full veg solution will be say 500 vs 700... big deal, 1.0 ec is 1.0 ec.

and likely it means u'v been over feeding, based on what u said b4... that it was off the scale under the 700 scale... adjusting the value down doesn't change the fact that u were over 3.0ec, ya know? EDIT... oops, read that again... u said off the scale w using the cal solution. they aren't feeding right now anyway... see below... ;-)


but u'v got a lot going on right now... imo u should take a step back. u'v done a lot to the plants as of late & any way u cut it, they are not happy... so u need to take a moment to let the girls recover anyway... u'v lost the next week best case scenario already... likely be longer before they are 'okay'.

how are u checkin the whiteness of the roots, cuz i agree w Stitch... looks like root issues... be it rotten, soggy, aphid infested, overly salty, warm, solution issues, pH, whatever... there are some major root uptake issues going. dump the rez & pH water for right now & cut back on the waterings... til u fig some shit out over the next day or so. gl bro... kno it's frustrating... like panic mode & all, but damage is done... gonna take some time. peace

EDIT... u'r gonna want to flush the rest of the merit outta there too... thinking that's a major issue. ;-)

 

[maik]

Thank you both so much for giving such thorough advice! Really glad to know that people are willing to take their time to help out.

Flushing it with ph 6.0 water with addition of H&G Drip Clean to help with the rinse. I believe one or two days should be more than sufficient for getting rid of any salt build up or Merit residue that could still be left. Our Merit "Flush" was not a real flush and only lasted 1 hour but there really may be some residue in there.

I will be foliar feeding some nutrients along with Epson salts to give it some magnesium.

Also, recalibrating the PPM with 1500 ppm Hanna Solution (no more confusion)

MynameisStich- Not exactly sure what the ppms were after the water declined but ppm's were dropping along with the water level, but not proportionally. (water level declined faster than ppms)

We are using Aqua Flakes A/B and Root XL by House and Gardens.

Also, the drip lines are on constant flow (meaning it never turns off), this may be contributing to the overwatering problem, I have read that you want to give the roots time to absorb oxygen. Should I put the pump to a meter? We do not have a controller to control the drip timing. What is a good time to put it on, on every other 15 minutes? or off 15 minutes per hour?

This may actually be the main problem because they were getting no where near as much water before. I will remove a drain line and see if it resolves any issues.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

MynameStitch said exactly what I was gonna say, overwatering. Now that you say the drip lines run all the time, there you go. Roots need to be exposed to O2 and be given a little time to grow in search of more water and nutes between waterings. I think you're also overfertilizing. Nutrient manufacturers give you the highest possible concentrations plants can tolerate (so they make the most $), when they're growing fast and healthy. Less fast growing, or less healthy plants do much better with FAR weaker nutrient concentrations. Remember, you don't make plants grow by feeding them, you respond to their growth with food. Cause and effect runs the other way than you're thinking.

 

[MynameStitch]

MynameisStich- Not exactly sure what the ppms were after the water declined but ppm's were dropping along with the water level, but not proportionally. (water level declined faster than ppms)

Like Mr. Greengenes stated, over fertilizing, if the plants are removing more water than ferts, there is too much.... lower the rest, but first you can't be dripping your plants all day long, there has to be a time on and time off when they can.... say for example..... they drip 6 times a day.... few min a time.. just an example, not saying that is what you should use.... it all depends on the root growth...... and how much root mass is there and how long it would take to drip the whole root system...... as soon as the whole root mass has been moisted and enough the dripping should stop and let it get damp again before dripping again.... not too wet and not too dry.. but slightly damp.

 

[maik]

MynameisStich- Not exactly sure what the ppms were after the water declined but ppm's were dropping along with the water level, but not proportionally. (water level declined faster than ppms)

Like Mr. Greengenes stated, over fertilizing, if the plants are removing more water than ferts, there is too much.... lower the rest, but first you can't be dripping your plants all day long, there has to be a time on and time off when they can.... say for example..... they drip 6 times a day.... few min a time.. just an example, not saying that is what you should use.... it all depends on the root growth...... and how much root mass is there and how long it would take to drip the whole root system...... as soon as the whole root mass has been moisted and enough the dripping should stop and let it get damp again before dripping again.... not too wet and not too dry.. but slightly damp.

I have read the same in many sources, but the guy who built our room had it set on continuous flow. I did some research and i found that there are many people who do continuous flow (no stops in watering) with hydroton drip systems.

I'm wondering if there is some middle ground. Apparently hydroton dries quickly and already provides oxygen to the roots?

I will be adding an large airstone to the reservoir and am considering putting an airstone at the bottom of each bucket to provide oxygen for the roots.

Also, this is the harder part, I will be reconstructing the piping to allow for the pump to be on a timer and experiment with different feed schedules. Currently the piping is all wack and won't allow me to put it on a timer without disrupting the chiller.

It has been flushed for two whole days with ph'd 6.0 R/O water. Last night I put in 1/4 strength nutrients which is around 500 ppm. I will slowly bump it up and most likely do another res change tomorrow.

Another thing I've been doing is manually stopping the drip lines for an hour or two here and there (no specific schedule). Whatever it is that i've done recently (flush, shutting off feed, removing drip lines and relocating drip lines) seems to be working. The plants are starting to uncurl!

 

[MynameStitch]

See, different strains can take different tolerances to anything... heat amount of water.... nute strength, so unless you growing same strain, what works for one may not work for you and those plants are showing... it don't like it.

That is great what you did, flushing her out and slowly moving nutes up, thats what ya do! See I told ya, too much stress to the roots via water.... your waterboarding your plants man lol gotta let them get some fresh air a bit and stop the water and only let it drip for so long so many times a day...... keep us updated!

 

[windrunner1]

Wow...had the same problem

 

[m4k]

your waterboarding your plants man

maybe try airstones to provide more oxygen for the roots. i have read that many top feed hydroton setups use constant feed schedules. water is pumping 24/7

 

[maik]

maybe try airstones to provide more oxygen for the roots. i have read that many top feed hydroton setups use constant feed schedules. water is pumping 24/7

Yea, so basically we figured out what the problem was: LIGHT!

We cut down the water feeding schedule and fed much lighter without seeing a single change in the leaves/growth. basically, there may have been some uncurling but negligible.

When one of our light bulbs blew out, we found out that the plant sitting right under it suddenly recovered. So, we've turned off 4/8 of the 1000w HPS (keep in mind we're still in veg but had switched the lights from 1000w MH). In less than two days, the plants have already shown significant signs of recovery and the new growth is already flattening out.

My question is... what do I do now? basically, the plants were light stressed like crazy and I'm not sure what to do when it is time to flip. Could this only be because we have them under the 1000w HPS for 18 hours a day? Once they are on 12-12, should be fine right?

Another thing, our lights are over 3 feet away from the canopy right now but that is the max. Should I expect the plants to continue to respond so negatively to the light?

 

[Hydro-Soil]

If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?
PPM ~ 180

180??? Can you check that again... now that your meter is calibrated? It should be around 10.... if it is R/O water.